It's more or less happening as I was told

[Cheesebeef]

Did you think that Danny Manning was our missing piece to a championship? I didn't.

sorry, but Shaq, Alonzo and Hakeem weren't available.

Come on, this is just stupid. With Manning we were the far and away the front-runners for the title before the season and ended up on pace for 65 wins with him, destroying everything in our path that season.

Tell me, dreamcast, what should JC have done back then instead of signing the best FA available, a 6'10 All-Star in his prime who just led the Hawks to the best record in the East?

 

[Covert Rain]

Did you think that Danny Manning was our missing piece to a championship? I didn't.

Not only did I think he was but so did much of the league. Many preseason articles had the Suns winning it all with Manning.

How could you not remember this?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I won't watch a single game of what will be the worst Suns season in my time as a fan.

I won't support a team that strives for mediocrity which is exactly what we are doing, spend money to win 46 games instead of 26 and get a #14 pick instead of a #4 pick.

Buyout Sarver.

How about you just go now?

So freaking whiny.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I didn't link them, I compared them. Big difference.

comparing them is even worse.

seriously, you have zero clue what you're talking about in regards to JC v. Sarver.

 

[Covert Rain]

Did you think that Danny Manning was our missing piece to a championship? I didn't.

Not only did I think he was but so did much of the league. Many analysts had the Suns winning it all with Manning.

How could you not remember this?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not only did I think he was but so did much of the league. Many preseason articles had the Suns winning it all with Manning.

How could you not remember this?

it's mind-boggling to me that anyone who calls himself a Suns fan doesn't remember even the exact moment Manning announced on KTAR before FA even began that he was going to play with us.

My friend and I were celebrating, calling each other immediately.

But, some people also just don't like to admit they're wrong either.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

are you serious? They made all sorts of moves to try and get out of that, but they were TERRIBLE moves. The Penny signing was a 91 million dollar go for broke move. I don't know how you categorize that any other way. A superstar with bad knees, being brought to a 50 win team on a 90 million dollar salary isn't going for broke? Sure, it blew up in his face, but that WAS going for broke.


Problem is, once you go for broke, you're stuck with what you've got for years and THAT'S why we were a 45-53 win team for a decade.

We went for broke from 1988-1995, didn't win squat.

Signing Penny was the closest 'go for broke' move out of all of them listed thus far, but nobody out Phoenix thought that this team, even with Penny was championship caliber.

1996-1998, we rebuilt and set us up for a huge summer with a ton of cap space... and got crushed by the lockout... then "went for broke" by signing Googs and Longley by reaching for them...

Signing Googs and Longley wasn't going for broke either. After McDyess bolted, this was plan B. Didn't seem like a bad deal at the time, but definitely not going for broke.

Going for broke and being active in free agency aren't necessarily the same thing.

Then, when that looked bad, they went for broke AGAIN by trading and signing Pennny at 91 million dollars and once that happened, they were BROKE, hamstrung by injured players and horrible contracts.

All JC seemingly did was go for broke.

He rebuilt here instead of going for broke. How can you say he went for broke here? He shedded salary here in an attempt to sign a free agent and rebuild.

But you say he did in baseball what he didn't do here... which makes even less sense. Baseball had no salary cap so JC could build on top of bad contracts with bigger ones to make that team into a champion. The NBA salary cap wouldn't allow him to do that with the suns.

True. An important factor.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

comparing them is even worse.

seriously, you have zero clue what you're talking about in regards to JC v. Sarver.

Yawn. Some people would rather ignore the success of Sarver and call him cheap too.

Not only did I think he was but so did much of the league. Many analysts had the Suns winning it all with Manning.

How could you not remember this?

I remember, I wasn't sold on it.

 

[Covert Rain]

I remember, I wasn't sold on it.

OK, that was you though. Most of the rest of the league was. So, if the conventional wisdom at the time was that it was a huge acquisition....then your example is poor.

I personally have no doubt if it wasn't for the knee injury that might have been the year.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

it's mind-boggling to me that anyone who calls himself a Suns fan doesn't remember even the exact moment Manning announced on KTAR before FA even began that he was going to play with us.

My friend and I were celebrating, calling each other immediately.

But, some people also just don't like to admit they're wrong either.

Don't go there.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think we overpaid Channing, but I am glad we kept him as he is an ideal backup center for this team. I like the Warrick deal a ton. I would prefer he is a back up too, but ill give that some time.

I loathe Sarver, but I am going to give him time to hire a GM. Hes making the decisions now because no one is place, but its obvious he is searching as we have all heard about the interviews. Hopefully he makes the right call. Kerr turned out to be pretty good and that was seen as a dumb move at the time too.

We all knew Amare was gone (at least I did) and frankly I am glad we drew the line in the sand. Amare will NEVER win as the best player and unfortunatley we don't have Wade or Lebron, so there was no need to risk the max with his balky knees and eyes.

The same people bitching now are the same ones who would be bitching had we maxed him out.

We are rebuilding now, no doubt about it. We will likely play out Nash's contract and make a couple playoffs as a 7 or 8 and then hopefully we can rebuild fully.

I don't see what everyone is crazy about over the last couple days. We have known Sarver is an ass clown the last two years. That hasn't changed.

I actually view the last two signings as positive.

 

[Covert Rain]

We are rebuilding now, no doubt about it. We will likely play out Nash's contract and make a couple playoffs as a 7 or 8 and then hopefully we can rebuild fully.

Are we? Playing out contracts, signing role players and probably overpaying doesn't say rebuilding to me. Sounds like retooling.

The Suns should have saved the money, traded away some contracts and took a run at free agency next season if they were rebuilding.

Hell...let's back up. If the Suns were going to rebuild, they should have spent time trading away contracts this offseason so they could get some pieces for the future.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Signing Penny was the closest 'go for broke' move out of all of them listed thus far, but nobody out Phoenix thought that this team, even with Penny was championship caliber.



Signing Googs and Longley wasn't going for broke either. After McDyess bolted, this was plan B. Didn't seem like a bad deal at the time, but definitely not going for broke.

Going for broke and being active in free agency aren't necessarily the same thing.



He rebuilt here instead of going for broke. How can you say he went for broke here? He shedded salary here in an attempt to sign a free agent and rebuild.



True. An important factor.

tell me, how do you think Jerry should have gone for broke in the past? and better yet, what exactly does "going for broke" even mean to you because if it's not signing the best FA to add substantial money to an already dlarge/successful payroll, then I don't even know how to continue with this debate.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yawn. Some people would rather ignore the success of Sarver and call him cheap too.

I don't call him cheap. I call him stupid. There's a big difference.

I remember, I wasn't sold on it.

than you were the one. and if you weren't sold on it, tell me, what DID you want to see them do?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Don't go there.

why? I'm not saying it makes you a "bad" fan, I just can't believe you don't comprehend that going after the biggest FA who everyone thought was the missing piece wasn't going for broke there.

what is your definition of going for broke?

 

[Chaplin]

Not even close. Colangelo was actually recruited to play basketball at Illinois and was GM (and even head coach!) for 20 years before he ever became an owner (and he was barely that with less than 1 percent total investment). When he took over as general managing partner, he was well respected in the league for his foresight and charisma, as well as deeply integrated into the local political scene.

And yet, no title. He certainly is better than Sarver, but he doesn't deserve a free pass either.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And yet, no title. He certainly is better than Sarver, but he doesn't deserve a free pass either.

is anyone giving Jerr a free pass here though? I (and many others) have called a lot of his moves TERRIBLE (Googs/Penny contracts) but at least the guy had a burning desire to win and when he had the ability to try and do everything he could to build a better team, he did (with widely varying results).

I mean, the NBA literally changed it's Bird rules because Jerry kept bilking the system by getting AC Green and Manning on one year 1 million dollar deals with handshake side deals of balloon payments the next season.

 

[Covert Rain]

is anyone giving Jerr a free pass here though? I (and many others) have called a lot of his moves TERRIBLE (Googs/Penny contracts) but at least the guy had a burning desire to win and when he had the ability to try and do everything he could to build a better team, he did (with widely varying results).

I mean, the NBA literally changed it's Bird rules because Jerry kept bilking the system by getting AC Green and Manning on one year 1 million dollar deals with handshake side deals of balloon payments the next season.

I don't see how anybody can question Jerry's desire to win with all the moves and signings that guy made while owner. If you can't move yourself to look at that fact then look at the results.

The Suns are one the most winning-est franchises is any sport to have not won a title. That alone says the franchise is trying.

Now if this was the clippers it would be a different story.

 

[Chaplin]

is anyone giving Jerr a free pass here though? I (and many others) have called a lot of his moves TERRIBLE (Googs/Penny contracts) but at least the guy had a burning desire to win and when he had the ability to try and do everything he could to build a better team, he did (with widely varying results).

I mean, the NBA literally changed it's Bird rules because Jerry kept bilking the system by getting AC Green and Manning on one year 1 million dollar deals with handshake side deals of balloon payments the next season.

The problem is that Jerry seems like a saint up next to Sarver, and the crazy thing is, Sarver's results SHOULD help him, but instead they're hurting him, especially now when you have a WCF team and it's been ripped apart by overpaying Frye and signing Warrick as your starting PF.

Either way, Jerry looks infallible next to Sarver, but the reality is that Jerry wasn't. He spent an awful long time working with a team that only two or three times came close to a championship. Sarver's been here--what--6 years? And we've been close 3 of those years. I'm not saying we should have one any of those times (although there is one time when we had a great opportunity), but we've been put in a position to win. Of course, that's all over now.

 

[Chaplin]

In Manning's first two years, we were EASILY the best team in basketball. I mean, it wasn't even close. Too bad the damn Rockets beat us both years.

But there was no denying that we became the best team in the NBA the minute Manning signed with us. I don't know how anybody could dispute that.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think we overpaid Channing, but I am glad we kept him as he is an ideal backup center for this team. I like the Warrick deal a ton. I would prefer he is a back up too, but ill give that some time.

I loathe Sarver, but I am going to give him time to hire a GM. Hes making the decisions now because no one is place, but its obvious he is searching as we have all heard about the interviews. Hopefully he makes the right call. Kerr turned out to be pretty good and that was seen as a dumb move at the time too.

We all knew Amare was gone (at least I did) and frankly I am glad we drew the line in the sand. Amare will NEVER win as the best player and unfortunatley we don't have Wade or Lebron, so there was no need to risk the max with his balky knees and eyes.

The same people bitching now are the same ones who would be bitching had we maxed him out.

We are rebuilding now, no doubt about it. We will likely play out Nash's contract and make a couple playoffs as a 7 or 8 and then hopefully we can rebuild fully.

I don't see what everyone is crazy about over the last couple days. We have known Sarver is an ass clown the last two years. That hasn't changed.

I actually view the last two signings as positive.

So true. It's not like the Suns were blindsided. Amare wanted the money. He was going to the highest bidder.

 

[Chaplin]

So true. It's not like the Suns were blindsided. Amare wanted the money. He was going to the highest bidder.

I guess the same thing can be said about Channing. Just sayin'.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In Manning's first two years, we were EASILY the best team in basketball. I mean, it wasn't even close. Too bad the damn Rockets beat us both years.

Manning wasn't on the first team that lost to the Rockets. AC green was the big FA acquisition that off-season. It was the next year that we got Manning and were like 36-10 until Joe Klein broke his knee off. That team was slaughtering people.

I mean, it had Majerle, Manning, Ainge, Tisdale... OFF THE BENCH.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Clearly the difference between Jerry and Sarver is that JC took a franchise that was the laughing stock of the NBA and turned it into a respectable upper tier franchise a true destination franchise for players and took us to the only NBA finals we have ever had, a kin to the way the 49ers were run in the 1980 and early 90's. Noone is perfect, mistakes can be made, but when you create revolutionary change you deserve to be considered great. Sarver doesn't touch this on any macro level, it's not even close. Jerry is a Roosevelt and Sarver is a Truman.

If you are comparing the two based on microtransactions you are missing the point.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The problem is that Jerry seems like a saint up next to Sarver, and the crazy thing is, Sarver's results SHOULD help him, but instead they're hurting him, especially now when you have a WCF team and it's been ripped apart by overpaying Frye and signing Warrick as your starting PF.

Either way, Jerry looks infallible next to Sarver, but the reality is that Jerry wasn't. He spent an awful long time working with a team that only two or three times came close to a championship. Sarver's been here--what--6 years? And we've been close 3 of those years. I'm not saying we should have one any of those times (although there is one time when we had a great opportunity), but we've been put in a position to win. Of course, that's all over now.

yes, but the groundwork for Sarver's team was laid by... Colangelo. That's why Sarver doesn't get the credit there. JC built the Nash/Amare era.

and if anything, I think Jerry wanted to win too much. I always loathed the Googs/Longley off-season. Jerr just couldn't stand to see his team tank so he over-reached with the thought that he could keep building on them. Sadly, on a foundation built of sand, he threw a heaping pile of mud on top (Penny).