It's not Murray, the problem is Keim.

[SoonerLou]

Are you posting your own tweets?

Be honest.

No.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I posted this in another thread, thinking it was this one, but the point is, Keim does not build a roster well.

In our good coaching year (2017), we only had 9 starters drafted by us, and that isn't a result of a rebuild like the 49ers. Also shows how well the Rams drafted since McVay took over and didn't need to churn the roster - he got it to work immediately.

The irony is that no team has that many second contracts in place for very long, so he isn't far off from the target on that, which means... terrible drafting by Keim. Even with the same coaches for 5 years, he couldn't reach an average number of drafted starters for BA.

LA Rams
2017: 14 starters drafted by team / 26 total players drafted by team on roster / 7 on second contracts
2018: 13 starters / 27 roster / 5
2019: 12 starters / 24 roster / 5

AZ Cards
2017: 9 starters / 26 roster / 8
2018: 10 starters / 21 roster / 3
2019: 8 starters / 19 roster / 5

SEA Seahawks
2017: 13 starters / 28 roster / 9
2018: 15 starters / 28 roster / 5
2019: 13 starters / 29 roster / 5

49ers
2017: 12 starters / 27 roster / 5
2018: 9 starters / 27 roster / 2
2019: 12 starters / 24 roster / 5

Source: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/2019_roster.htm

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

We are in a pretty good spot to improve. Cap space. Another high draft slot and another high waiver priority.

the real question is when you look at Keims last four or five drafts you really have to question whether he should be the guy making that decisions.

I really don't see Keim getting fired, still think MB trusts him & will give the chance to finish building around KK & KM. That being said, I'm a Cardinals fan & that won't change, regardless of whether SK is the GM or not. So I hope with all the cap space we have in the offseason & plus 10 million (announced today the cap figure per team) he gets this right? I've read different figures on this board. Dead cap money included I think? 100 million & 77 million I've read on here. I'm not totally sure. So basically we will have either 110 or 87 million to spend for next season? We need about 4-5 players on each side of the ball imo. Let's figure 10. 3 possible starters from the draft & 7 FA's. There's plenty of money to do this. I'm hoping he gets it right, not saying he will, hoping because imo, he ain't going anywhere. I have no choice, I'm a lifelong Cardinals fan & all I can do is get behind the players brought in & hope for the best. Maybe, just maybe, some FA's will be intrigued by the chance to play with KM? Maybe SK is hell bent on building this team the way it needs to be for KM & KK? He has to see how God awful this defense is & want to fix it at all costs. I'd love to sit in the press box with SK & MB while our defense is on the field, listen to them as our defense is getting torched once again, then give them my thoughts. I'm quite sure they aren't happy & want it fixed. I just want our team competitive again as does every other Cardinal fan. Hoping for the best in the offseason.

 

[az jam]

Lots of teams will have plenty of cap space next year so there will be competition for the better free agents. Additionally, the best ones will be franchised. Most likely its the mid tier players that will be pursued and signed. We have not done very well on these lately.The best teams build through the draft and Keim's record there has been a disaster. That is why I feel we should go out and get a new GM.I do agree with some on the board that have said MB is part of the problem. He has been too loyal to Keim. He needs to fix this for sure or the stands will be very empty except for rival team fans like the Steelers did on Sunday. I was there and it was embarrassing.

 

[Solar7]

I really don't see Keim getting fired, still think MB trusts him & will give the chance to finish building around KK & KM. That being said, I'm a Cardinals fan & that won't change, regardless of whether SK is the GM or not. So I hope with all the cap space we have in the offseason & plus 10 million (announced today the cap figure per team) he gets this right? I've read different figures on this board. Dead cap money included I think? 100 million & 77 million I've read on here. I'm not totally sure. So basically we will have either 110 or 87 million to spend for next season? We need about 4-5 players on each side of the ball imo. Let's figure 10. 3 possible starters from the draft & 7 FA's. There's plenty of money to do this. I'm hoping he gets it right, not saying he will, hoping because imo, he ain't going anywhere. I have no choice, I'm a lifelong Cardinals fan & all I can do is get behind the players brought in & hope for the best. Maybe, just maybe, some FA's will be intrigued by the chance to play with KM? Maybe SK is hell bent on building this team the way it needs to be for KM & KK? He has to see how God awful this defense is & want to fix it at all costs. I'd love to sit in the press box with SK & MB while our defense is on the field, listen to them as our defense is getting torched once again, then give them my thoughts. I'm quite sure they aren't happy & want it fixed. I just want our team competitive again as does every other Cardinal fan. Hoping for the best in the offseason.

It might be helpful for you to check out a site like Spotrac that has all of this laid out by year. The number is closer to that $77 million you've heard. (The site was glitchy a few days ago but is hopefully fixed).

The real problem is thinking we need 4-5 guys. We only have 35 under contract, so 18 bodies alone need to be added just to field a football team, much less how many we need for camp and such. We have more than 4-5 positions where we don't even have a current starter under contract, much less wanting to upgrade lesser talent.

That would be OTx2, C, DE(x2 unless you're counting on Allen), OLB, and WR unless you're plugging in Isabella/Butler at one of those spots. The money will be spread thin to just fill those spots. Now, will they be good players that we find? Possibly, but we still won't be upgrading at positions like ILB/Safety/CB/RB, since things will be tight and we need so many warm bodies.

Pair that with only having 6 draft picks and we're looking at a steep climb.

 

[HGC]

Lots of teams will have plenty of cap space next year so there will be competition for the better free agents. Additionally, the best ones will be franchised. Most likely its the mid tier players that will be pursued and signed. We have not done very well on these lately.The best teams build through the draft and Keim's record there has been a disaster. That is why I feel we should go out and get a new GM.I do agree with some on the board that have said MB is part of the problem. He has been too loyal to Keim. He needs to fix this for sure or the stands will be very empty except for rival team fans like the Steelers did on Sunday. I was there and it was embarrassing.

Exactly. Overpaying for those mid tier free agents in hopes of winning a few more games could cripple this team going forward. Nobody will want to sign here unless they break the bank.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Isn't there rules on this board regarding personal attacks?

This a personnel attack.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I wasn't sure where @DVontel's post was in this thread, so I quoted you on account of continuing the conversation.

Of course we all want better players around Kyler, as we would any QB. Nothing wrong with that. Where the line blurs is starting to talk about how many quality players he needs to be successful. We already have threads up looking to pass over major needs for a #1 WR in the draft (after using four picks on the position in two years). If we start to say Kyler can't succeed without a top-5 WR, great offensive line, etc., well he might not be living up to his billing as the great player we were being sold.

It is what it is - the roster is atrocious and needs to be repaired, but I think for some of us who see that Keim has surrounded him with next to nothing and still might be at it next year, the future looks bleak. The question is more about if Kyler is good enough to elevate guys. That chapter is still unwritten, I'm not gonna rip him for it right now. But look at the QBs at the top of the league this year and ask yourself how many are doing it needing a top-10 draft pick of a WR to succeed? Not a ton.

Solar.....you are AGAIN.....putting words in people's mouths.

No one is saying Murray needs a top 5 offensive line. No one. He has a bottom 3 or 4 offensive line. Few players are successful in that situation.

 

[Solar7]

Solar.....you are AGAIN.....putting words in people's mouths.

No one is saying Murray needs a top 5 offensive line. No one. He has a bottom 3 or 4 offensive line. Few players are successful in that situation.

You say I'm putting words in people's mouths? Where did I mention a top-5 offensive line? I didn't.

It's not putting words in others' mouths, it's just stating that part of the discussion is defining the line in which a player is elevating others around him, vs. needing major talent to be successful. I think we would all agree that we didn't draft a player #1 overall to expect he would need elite talent around him to succeed. The question is, can he perform at a high level with a middling roster around him? Like, if we hand him... say the Jaguars, Titans, or Colts roster, is he elite? Or just still pretty good?

There's a lot to be written in that book still.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You say I'm putting words in people's mouths? Where did I mention a top-5 offensive line? I didn't.

It's not putting words in others' mouths, it's just stating that part of the discussion is defining the line in which a player is elevating others around him, vs. needing major talent to be successful. I think we would all agree that we didn't draft a player #1 overall to expect he would need elite talent around him to succeed. The question is, can he perform at a high level with a middling roster around him? Like, if we hand him... say the Jaguars, Titans, or Colts roster, is he elite? Or just still pretty good?

There's a lot to be written in that book still.

LOL misread.

But I stand by my sentiment, most of us are asking for just a league average offensive line.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You say I'm putting words in people's mouths? Where did I mention a top-5 offensive line? I didn't.

It's not putting words in others' mouths, it's just stating that part of the discussion is defining the line in which a player is elevating others around him, vs. needing major talent to be successful. I think we would all agree that we didn't draft a player #1 overall to expect he would need elite talent around him to succeed. The question is, can he perform at a high level with a middling roster around him? Like, if we hand him... say the Jaguars, Titans, or Colts roster, is he elite? Or just still pretty good?

There's a lot to be written in that book still.

And to the rest of your post. Who knows how he will perform with a league average roster.

But that should be expected. I think Murray can be really good with a league average roster.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

And to the rest of your post. Who knows how he will perform with a league average roster.

But that should be expected. I think Murray can be really good with a league average roster.

Keim has proven he cannot build a league average roster, if Keim continues as GM, then Murray will fail based on your reasoning.

 

[DVontel]

You say I'm putting words in people's mouths? Where did I mention a top-5 offensive line? I didn't.

It's not putting words in others' mouths, it's just stating that part of the discussion is defining the line in which a player is elevating others around him, vs. needing major talent to be successful. I think we would all agree that we didn't draft a player #1 overall to expect he would need elite talent around him to succeed. The question is, can he perform at a high level with a middling roster around him? Like, if we hand him... say the Jaguars, Titans, or Colts roster, is he elite? Or just still pretty good?

There's a lot to be written in that book still.

Titans’ roster is pretty damn good. Easily better than the other two you named. Don’t let Mariota underachieving with that roster fool you.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Keim has proven he cannot build a league average roster,

Hogwash.
Just a few short years ago, the cards had as talented roster as any in the league.

 

[Arz101]

Hogwash.
Just a few short years ago, the cards had as talented roster as any in the league.

This is actually true then.

Now, this is a bottom 5 roster. The record reflects it. There is no way to spin it. It is past time to get a new GM.

 

[daves]

Keim has proven he cannot build a league average roster, if Keim continues as GM, then Murray will fail based on your reasoning.

On the contrary, with 50 wins in 5 years during the Arians Era, Keim proved that he CAN build an ABOVE average roster. He just hasn't proven he can maintain one, or repeat his 2x Executive of the Year feat.

...dave

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

This is actually true then.

Now, this is a bottom 5 roster. The record reflects it. There is no way to spin it. It is past time to get a new GM.

Agree, the roster is very bad now. But Keim was in charge when they had a great roster too.

he seems to have become too reactionary and no plan in place.

it’s like last year when people were happy he was claiming all those rejects on the waiver wire. That was stupid. Good players don’t get put on waivers.

I don’t know if it’s Mike, who I’ve heard is a train wreck to work for, or Keim. But they need to quit making rash decisions and have a plan.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

To follow up with the seat of the pants decisions, look at the following:
In the last 2 years they’ve drafted 2 first round QBs, had 2 HCs, 3 OCs, have gone from 3-4 to 4-3 and back to 3-4, etc.


you can’t win doing that. I think it screams Mike B. He’s obviously become more involved and that’s probably not a good thing.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Hogwash.
Just a few short years ago, the cards had as talented roster as any in the league.

Keim slowly depleted the DRAFTED roster he was given by Graves and used short term acquisitions to cover his mistakes. That was depleted by...Keim again, and now this roster building through the draft and acquisitions isn't able to be overcome. BA made players like Bucannon and Minter work, no one has made Riddick work. Below is the number of starters drafted by the team and the number drafted on the overall roster. Rod Graves drafted at about league average (these numbers match the past 3 years in the NFC West minus the 49ers in 2018, not surprisingly). Keim's BEST year matches Graves worst.

I counter that hogwash

Rod Graves
2006: 14 starters / 23 roster (Denny Green)
2007: 14 starters / 24 roster (the Whiz)
2008: 14 starters / 25 roster
2009: 13 starters / 23 roster
2010: 12 starters / 27 roster
2011: 13 starters / 23 roster
2012: 12 starters / 28 roster
----------------------------------------

Steve Keim
2013: 11 starters / 23 roster (BA)
2014: 9 starters / 24 roster
2015: 12 starters / 23 roster
2016: 9 starters / 26 roster
2017: 9 starters / 26 roster
2018: 10 starters / 21 roster (Wilks)
2019: 8 starters / 19 roster (KK)

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Defending Rod Graves does nothing to justify your point. He was the worst GM in the league.

it’s easy to draft starters when you’re always drafting at the top and fielding 4 win talent.

Keim built a great roster. He traded for Palmer and Jones. He has a bad roster now and that’s on him too.

but don’t just give him the blame and none of the credit.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Defending Rod Graves does nothing to justify your point. He was the worst GM in the league.

it’s easy to draft starters when you’re always drafting at the top and fielding 4 win talent.

Keim built a great roster. He traded for Palmer and Jones. He has a bad roster now and that’s on him too.

but don’t just give him the blame and none of the credit.

That's fair to a point, but he had a good coaching staff for 5 years and lost what roster he had, by choice, which is critical in the assessment. BTW, Rams, Seahawks and 49ers all managed the roster better using this algorithm and they varied dramatically in draft order and coaching over the same timeframe.

Graves put together the roster that went to the Super Bowl in 2009 as well.

At some point, Keim runs out of excuses.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Who on this board has said this other than Krang & he admitted he was trolling the KM haters prior to the draft? I was one of the ones that wanted to keep Rosen to see what KK could do with him & improve the defense. I don't recall anyone saying he was a generational transcendent player. But I'm old & my memory is bad so there's that.

It was said by pacardsfan I do know that lol. Can't remember who all else said that but he did.

It might be helpful for you to check out a site like Spotrac that has all of this laid out by year. The number is closer to that $77 million you've heard. (The site was glitchy a few days ago but is hopefully fixed).

The real problem is thinking we need 4-5 guys. We only have 35 under contract, so 18 bodies alone need to be added just to field a football team, much less how many we need for camp and such. We have more than 4-5 positions where we don't even have a current starter under contract, much less wanting to upgrade lesser talent.

That would be OTx2, C, DE(x2 unless you're counting on Allen), OLB, and WR unless you're plugging in Isabella/Butler at one of those spots. The money will be spread thin to just fill those spots. Now, will they be good players that we find? Possibly, but we still won't be upgrading at positions like ILB/Safety/CB/RB, since things will be tight and we need so many warm bodies.

Pair that with only having 6 draft picks and we're looking at a steep climb.

I wasn't saying just 4-5 players, I was saying 4-5 on each side of the ball. Ok, you said we have 35 players under contract for next season, let's go with 5 players on each side of the ball, that's 10 obviously, equaling 45, that still leaves 8 to get to 53. If we can get 3 of the 10 in the draft (first 3 rounds) & they pan out & either start or play a lot, that would save us some money. They will be playing on rookie deals. Considering how close we've been in most games this season, 5 players on each side of the ball should make us a lot more competitive next season. Adding the 10 to what we have under contract. It was announced yesterday that the cap will go up 10 million next season, that will give us around 87 million to spend which helps. I will definitely check that site out you mentioned.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Lots of teams will have plenty of cap space next year so there will be competition for the better free agents. Additionally, the best ones will be franchised. Most likely its the mid tier players that will be pursued and signed. We have not done very well on these lately.The best teams build through the draft and Keim's record there has been a disaster. That is why I feel we should go out and get a new GM.I do agree with some on the board that have said MB is part of the problem. He has been too loyal to Keim. He needs to fix this for sure or the stands will be very empty except for rival team fans like the Steelers did on Sunday. I was there and it was embarrassing.

That was very embarrassing. I hate the Steelers with all my soul, always have. There's so many Steelers fans here in Louisville & when they beat us in the SB it was miserable for me. I hated them long before that. We flew out there for the Carson Palmer ROH game against the "Shehawks" (another team I hate) it was sickening to see all their fans at the game yelling their stupid cheers. Looked to me on Sunday, there were more Steelers fans there than the Seattle game. I'm supposed to watch the Browns game Sunday at a local sports bar with my buddy whom is a Browns fan. I hope their fans don't outnumber us?