Iupati 2 AZ?!?!

Chopper0080

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Which facts are those? Pro Football Focus voodoo metrics or the ones I posted about our YPC when Cooper was on the field with a practice squad RB?

YBC over a two game stretch isn't a large enough sample size to make ANY determination regarding an impact that an single offensive lineman has in relation to a RB.

That is "John Skelton is a winner" talk.

A two game window where you see a lineman consistently playing with poor fundamentals is enough to determine that he is not where he should be fundamentally.

And just because Cooper has been a disappointment doesn't mean he can't turn his career around. It is just that the signing of Iupati is a signal that his chances to do so in Arizona are running out. Hopefully his offseason work at OLineWorld with LaCharles Bentley helps him as much as it helped Massie last offseason.
 

Chopper0080

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Cool story bro.

We get it - some of the board is convinced that Cooper was awful last year, and will never be anything.

Some of us watched the same games and saw some promise - enough to anoint him as the next great guard? Of course not, but good enough to give us some hope. The overwhelming negativity for the guy is tiresome.

See, I don't see this at all. I see group of people who have been critical but are pulling for him to turn it around. I have yet to read anyone on this board declaring Jonathan Cooper is a bust. No one has said that he will never be a good player. You are putting these statements out there, not the people who are critical of Cooper's play.
 

Ed Burmila

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YBC over a two game stretch isn't a large enough sample size to make ANY determination regarding an impact that an single offensive lineman has in relation to a RB.

That is "John Skelton is a winner" talk.

A two game window where you see a lineman consistently playing with poor fundamentals is enough to determine that he is not where he should be fundamentally.

And just because Cooper has been a disappointment doesn't mean he can't turn his career around. It is just that the signing of Iupati is a signal that his chances to do so in Arizona are running out. Hopefully his offseason work at OLineWorld with LaCharles Bentley helps him as much as it helped Massie last offseason.

Alright, makes sense to me.

Incidentally the reason I think PFF OL stats are nonsense is that they claim to isolate the impact of a single player on the outcome of a play when there are a dozen different factors in play (other players, the formation, down and distance, etc) that determine if the OL as a whole succeeds on a play. So oddly enough I think we agree on that.
 

Chopper0080

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Alright, makes sense to me.

Incidentally the reason I think PFF OL stats are nonsense is that they claim to isolate the impact of a single player on the outcome of a play when there are a dozen different factors in play (other players, the formation, down and distance, etc) that determine if the OL as a whole succeeds on a play. So oddly enough I think we agree on that.

Agreed...PFF is one way to look at linemen. An easy way to look at film is count negative plays (on the ground, opening the gate). Football outsiders has interesting metrics, though they are only part of the picture.

Where I get frustrated with the Cooper talk is that I want him to be an impact player so bad, but that doesn't change my opinion of what he has done so far. He is on the ground a lot which is a huge red flag for NFL players. He is consistently over-correcting in his turns which speaks to an uncertainty of what he needs to be doing. He amkes some tough combo blocks look pretty easy, but those positives are occuring far less than the negatives. He has struggled to stay healthy, which is huge for offensive linemen and pro football players in general. But, despite all of this, I do want him to get better.
 

kerouac9

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There were only 2 games where we averaged 4 yards per carry on the ground. The two cooper played.

Season average was barely 3 yards per carry. Must be a big coincidence.

If two things happen at the same time, they obviously cause each other. Duh.

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kerouac9

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Alright, makes sense to me.

Incidentally the reason I think PFF OL stats are nonsense is that they claim to isolate the impact of a single player on the outcome of a play when there are a dozen different factors in play (other players, the formation, down and distance, etc) that determine if the OL as a whole succeeds on a play. So oddly enough I think we agree on that.

You'll never find me citing PFF stats for pretty much anything. I don't care how much Chris Collinsworth has invested in them, their methodology is not consistent or dependable enough to predict anything. They make an interesting talking point, but not much more.

My view on Cooper is based on watching every single play with him as a guard in the All-22 and developing the opinion based on the fundamentals of his play.

It's buttressed by the fact that he couldn't push Ted Larsen or Alan Fanaika out of the job.

It's further supported by the Big Red Rage episode later in the season when Calvisi begged Calais Campbell, his guest (Dan Williams?) and Wolfley to say something nice about how Cooper had improved, and what they said was "He's spending less time on the ground in practice than he used to." They even joked that he was spending so much time on the ground that they told him that his shoes aren't the right size.

None of this is to say that Cooper can't become a servicable lineman. I'm not sure at this point that he's capable of being a great offensive lineman, or even a good one. But I hope he can still be a contributor.

His film was downright embarrassing at times this year. I'd like to challenge anyone to find a party outside of Hardy Drive that had something nice to say about Cooper based on his actual play on the field.
 

Jake6233

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Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
Mike Iupati's deal with Arizona: 5 yrs, $40M, plus incentives up to $41M with $22.5M guaranteed.

Official numbers. What I expected (maybe a little more guaranteed money)
 

BullheadCardFan

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Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
Mike Iupati's deal with Arizona: 5 yrs, $40M, plus incentives up to $41M with $22.5M guaranteed.

Official numbers. What I expected (maybe a little more guaranteed money)
Finally. So nice to have a mauler up front. Keep bringing them in FO
 

Snakester

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Wow never expected that kind of money for him. This is the first deal that I'm scratching my head about as far as money. Nice signing but too much money.
 

TJ

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Your ability to predict a counter-factual of the future is pretty impressive.

And nonsense.

Quality take. Rich, and full of substantive information to consider.....

IMHO...

To think that Iupati is coming in to play anything else other than left guard is ludicrous. The only movement you'll see on the line, barring any further signings, will be Cooper to right guard and Larson to center.

The further we get into free agency, the more it appears that Sendlein stays; unless they need to clear cap to get, say, AP, then his contract allows us to cut him with little dead money on the books.

Maybe coming from you people will understand.

Keim and Arians have both verbalized the need for better production and competition at the OG spots. Signing Iupati is a statement that there will only be a competition at one OG spot.

Cooper has gone from top 10 pick and future at LG, to fighting for the starting RG spot in his third season. Fact. This is the coaching staff telling him to get better or you will be gone.

It doesn't matter who it comes from. You said Iupati was the replacement for Cooper when 1) Cooper wasn't the week 1 starter and 2) Cooper will still be on the roster come September.

Not likely... TJ pretty much hates me as much as he does K9.

I don't hate anyone on the message board. Believe it or not, I actually like you, Cheese.

once we get into high page numbers this threads just turn into who can urine the farthest matches.

I prefer to call it a "Penis Measuring Contest" when these arguments are amongst men, but I'll work with this, too.

Luckily, I ate a ton of asparagus last night!

And I had a can of pickled beets! #purplepee4tehwin

That's disgusting....

How about ever
yone just settle down and stop acting like you can read minds. Either Cooper seizes the starting job this year or he's a failed experiment. Let's have a little GD faith in the guy. He played well when he was on the field. Obviously the line as a whole is going to be better this year now that we've added a perennial pro bowler.

When I've become the voice of reason the peeing contest has gone too far.

This is my way of thinking. I don't think Cooper is a failure. Could he be? Absolutely. But a dude whose rookie season was sabotaged by a significant leg injury, should be given some latitude. Normally, I'd become pessimistic about a 3rd year player in this instance, but I know the natural ability Cooper has that I won't write him off yet.

Yeah we know your ability to evaluate talent dominates everything else on this board. We get it. Hey everyone, look at how brilliant K9 is! I wonder why half the board has you on block. You just can't stop acting like a 13 year old and going NUH UH I'M RIGHT no matter how many "OK maybe knock it off" posts there are.

You're right Head Scout K9, it must be that Kerwyqyaun Williams ran for 100 yards in the only game Cooper played because of his massive level of talent.

You are a very stupid person if you can't see that Cooper has talent. Goodbye. Keep trying to show everyone how right you are. Cite more made up Pro Football Focus stats. You'll win 'em over yet champ.

I don't care about K9 and his antics either, but chill out.

Another example of why people don't take message boards seriously.

Don't give me no facts.

When you have a group of 1,000+ people who think they're smarter than their team's front office and argue over petty stuff, there's no reason to take anything from a message board with anything more than a grain of salt.

uhhh... not sure you remember how much of a hornets nest this place used to be back in 2003-2006.

I think this place was at its all-time worst during the Leinart v. Warner and Kolb v. Skelton sagas.




Cool story bro.

We get it - some of the board is convinced that Cooper was awful last year, and will never be anything.

Some of us watched the same games and saw some promise - enough to anoint him as the next great guard? Of course not, but good enough to give us some hope. The overwhelming negativity for the guy is tiresome.

For once, I agree with you, ASUCHRIS :D

When have the cards sucked?

#koolaidkrew

Never. Dynasty five decades running.

\

And just because Cooper has been a disappointment doesn't mean he can't turn his career around. It is just that the signing of Iupati is a signal that his chances to do so in Arizona are running out. Hopefully his offseason work at OLineWorld with LaCharles Bentley helps him as much as it helped Massie last offseason.

Here's where we agree.

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
Mike Iupati's deal with Arizona: 5 yrs, $40M, plus incentives up to $41M with $22.5M guaranteed.

Official numbers. What I expected (maybe a little more guaranteed money)

That's some serious coin.

If two things happen at the same time, they obviously cause each other. Duh.

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I've seen you post these graphs, and each one is more absurd and off-base than the previous. I've used similar graphs in disputes with some of my friends for other sporting topics unrelated to athletics. The difference is I know when they're appropriate, you don't. In your case, it's style over substance.

I'm not going to argue with you about the logical assumptions that Cooper's presence in the lineup impacts the run game versus the illogical assumption that murder rates and IE market shares have any sort of relationship.

I will help your argument out and say that two games is an incredibly small sample size, but enough that I hope that when/if he's a full-time starter, similar production continues.
 
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