J.R Smith To Denver

[Cheesebeef]

5 days after free agency has started and with yet another 3 1/2 months until the start of the season?

uh, Chap, I'm pretty sure you know this, but FA can agree to deals in principle (which a lot of them do) on July 1st - I guess that would make it 17 days, not 5. Now your exaggerating, but doing it in the reverse - sheesh, this is becoming pathological with you (and don't give me that crap about being able to "sign" people on the 12th - that's a technicality and nothing more, or did you forget that we got Steve Nash and Raja Bell on July 1st the last two years?)

 

[Cheesebeef]

Agreed, except I never attacked anyone. My general post was attacked by both Ouchie and cheese, regardless if you agree with any of us or not. Only then did I defend myself, which I always have to do with them. I only reply to them when they attack me.

uh - can you show me where I attakced you in my first post which was ALL ABOUT BASKETBALL?

And are you saying you've NEVER attacked anyone, or just never attacked anyone in THIS thread (because you're actually wrong on boith parts - or should I pull up the post where you questioned NastyOne fandom and then questioned his intelligence right afterward?)?

 

[Cheesebeef]

What the hell do you think I was talking about?? When I mention us trading out star after star every year, who did you think I meant??

well Chap - since NO ONE ELSE IS ADVOCATING TRADING ANY STARS FROM THIS TEAM, why the hell would what did in the past be germaine to conversation, especially when you're comparing what we should do now, following in the Spurs footprints?

Besides the fact - did we really trade Stars year after year after year? No - another exaggeration. Kidd was here for what, 5 years? You know what you realize after 5 YEARS - YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN - thus, you make a trade, unbelievable, right? Then, with Marbury, he was here for two and half years, one of which was terrible, one of which we struggled to make the playoffs and the 3rd, we were terrible AGAIN - but, yeah, we should have stayed pat with that team too, right? Just like the Spurs? I mean if we stood pat with Marbury, then by God, we wouldn't have been able to make such blunders like... oh, I don't know... CREATING THE BEAST WE ARE NOW.

Tell me something - you keep bringing up this sticking together thing and apparently using THE SUNS PAST (I believe if you are bringing up Kidd and Marbury) as examples of why we never got it done, but which of those MEDIOCRE-AWFUL teams from 1998-2002 would you have kept? And WHY would you keep them when they were bottom-feeding playoff pretenders?

 

[Chaplin]

uh - can you show me where I attakced you in my first post which was ALL ABOUT BASKETBALL?

And are you saying you've NEVER attacked anyone, or just never attacked anyone in THIS thread (because you're actually wrong on boith parts - or should I pull up the post where you questioned NastyOne fandom and then questioned his intelligence right afterward?)?

I am not wrong. I only defend myself against the likes of you. You attack with no provocation. Mostly against me, but others as well. In fact, there are very few posts that you write where you do NOT attack someone's opinion simply because it is not your own. You are openly hostile for no reason. There is no disputing your knowledge, however much I disagree with it, I've always thought you had a good head on your shoulders when it comes to basketball. We just disagree on some fundamental matters which you seem to take very personally for some reason. And that has transferred over to your brother. I wish it didn't, but it has.

Am I innocent? Of course not, and I never claimed to be. Unfortunately, your baiting tactics work most of the time and I get sucked in.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I guess you can't blame them, but San Antonio went years without any major changes and they have several championships to show for it. We have had a revolving door of star or all-star players and we have no championships to show for it.

here the cruz of the problem - you're saying on one hand that we've had a revolving door of star or all-star players, while at the same time pimping SA for not making changes, but your argument as to the above falls apart for one simple reason - WHEN YOU ARE A TITLE CONTENDER (SA - from the moment Duncan got there) YOU KEEP YOUR TEAM AND ALL-STARS TOGETHER - when you are the Suns and you watch Kidd get his ass bounced out of the playoffs for 5 years and then watch Marbury take your team barely to the playoffs ONCE sandwhiched in between two completely crap-ass years - YOU NEED TO MAKE MAJOR CHANGES BECAUSE YOU'RE SUPERSTARS DEFINE THE TEAM AND THE TEAM WAS - NOT A CONTENDER - THEY WERE MEDIOCRE.

But hey - if you'd rather we had kept Kidd back in the day, or for ungoldy reason Marbury and went the route of the Sixers treading water for a decade with Iverson, then i guess that's your perogative. You don't take SA's stance until you are a contender and at THAT point, YOU STILL ADD TO THE TEAM JUST LIKE THEY HAVE EVERY YEAR SINCE 2002.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am not wrong. I only defend myself against the likes of you. You attack with no provocation. Mostly against me, but others as well. In fact, there are very few posts that you write where you do NOT attack someone's opinion simply because it is not your own. You are openly hostile for no reason. There is no disputing your knowledge, however much I disagree with it, I've always thought you had a good head on your shoulders when it comes to basketball. We just disagree on some fundamental matters which you seem to take very personally for some reason. And that has transferred over to your brother. I wish it didn't, but it has.

Am I innocent? Of course not, and I never claimed to be. Unfortunately, your baiting tactics work most of the time and I get sucked in.

where did I bait you in this thread? Was it my first post which was all about basketball? Where did Nasty One bait you in that other thread? Can you answer me this as well? Why do you consistently over-exagerrate other people's opinions? I can understand difference in opinion about subjects and people overvaluing others versus your own thoughts and discussing that - but why blow people's opinions out of proportion? What good does that do?

And just because I take people's arguments apart doesn't mean I'm hostile Chap - it's just means I'm smarter than them. That's okay, people usually don't like people smarter than them, which I believe is why you dislike me so much. (see, I can get away with saying that because I put a smiley on it).

Oh - and for the record Chap - I think you are a GREAT/PASSIONATE fan, who really doesn't know much of anything about basketball. As long as we're airing our thoughts, might as well share mine.

 

[Chaplin]

Tell me something - you keep bringing up this sticking together thing and apparently using THE SUNS PAST (I believe if you are bringing up Kidd and Marbury) as examples of why we never got it done, but which of those MEDIOCRE-AWFUL teams from 1998-2002 would you have kept? And WHY would you keep them when they were bottom-feeding playoff pretenders?

Dude, cheese, during the years 1998-2002, the revolving door kept swinging in order to try to bring us out of that funk you speak of... I'm trying to figure out why you think I'd "keep" those "bottom-feeding playoff pretenders". Are you justifying the revolving door because of those bad teams (although only 1 was a losing team)? If that's the case, then I agree. If the team is doing no good, you gotta figure out how to right the ship. Right now, this Suns team is LIGHT YEARS better than any of those teams--and in fact, without John Salmons, is pretty close to be as good as that 93 team.

McDyess
Gugliotta
Penny
Marbury
Joe Johnson
Kidd
Finley
Nash
KJ
Dan Majerle

These guys were in and out of the team and the lineup for those years. That's a pretty big list of stars and semi-stars, if not All-Stars. That's not even taking into account the off-court stuff. So while many of those moves didn't work out, they were attempts to get us out of that funk... Although again, 2001-2002 was the only season in those years where we had a LOSING record.

Why, then, do we need to continue the revolving door now? We already have a Western Conference Finals team. John Salmons isn't magically going to make us a NBA Finals team. And neither will two draft picks that apparently D'Antoni and the others never wanted in the first place.

 

[Chaplin]

uh - can you show me where I attakced you in my first post which was ALL ABOUT BASKETBALL?

And are you saying you've NEVER attacked anyone, or just never attacked anyone in THIS thread (because you're actually wrong on boith parts - or should I pull up the post where you questioned NastyOne fandom and then questioned his intelligence right afterward?)?

Here's a quote from your first post:

uh, not really sure how SA applies to us, considering that they have PROVEN to be able to win titles with how they play the offseason, while as of yet, for whatever reason, we have not. But at the same time, I think you again are projecting exagerrations on to people "wanting major changes" - I may not want JR Smith or Kirk Snyder, but how are they MAJOR changes? They're not, nor would adding FA or trading 2nd round picks for guys or even first round picks. Those aren't called changes, they're called ADDITIONS - which is something the Spurs ALWAYS HAVE DONE.

You talk about the Spurs not making any major changes, and while they have held on to their core (which NO ONE IS ADVOCATING THE SUNS BREAK-UP) the supporting cast has CONSISTENTLY changed since they won their first title. Hell, even starters have changed on those last two title contenders as Bowen, Duncan and Parker are the only starters on both titles, not to mention that they have consistently ADDED guys like Robert Horry, Mohammed, Turkoglu, Finely and Brent Barry via trade or FA.

But if you read the above, you make it seem like they just stand pat which is patently ridiculous.

Top 8 the last 4 years:

So, before, when the Spurs were constantly getting their asses kicked by the Lakers with trash like Derek Anderson starting for them, they didn't stand pat because they knew they weren't a champion, so they had to continue to ADD (not make MAJOR CHANGES) but add to the team.

2003 - TITLE
Bowen, Duncan, Robinson, Parker, Jackson, Ginobli, Rose, Claxton, Kerr

Robinson retired and they actually tried to replace their own FA (something the Suns haven't done in the loss of TT) AND they added Robert Horry and Turkoglu - doesn't seem like standing pat to me. Their top 8 looked like this:

2004
Bowen, Duncan, Rasho, Parker, Turkoglu, Ginobli, Horry, Devin Brown

2nd round loss - the team needed more size, so they ADDED Barry and Mohammed and drated Udrih who played some minutes against us, hitting a couple big 3s and their top 8 looked like this:

2005 - TITLE
Bowen, Duncan, MOHAMMED, Ginobli, Parker, BARRY, HORRY, Rasho and Udrih

Then, they added EVEN MORE the next year - Finley, Van Exel - got them the best record in the league and their top 8 looked like this:

2006
Bowen, Duncan, Mohammed, Parker, Ginobli, Rasho, Finley, Horry, Barry Van Exel.

So, to say SA didn't make any MAJOR CHANGES (but considering that only 2 players remained on the 2003 title team versus the 99 team and only 4 players remained on the 2005 team versus the 2003 team, some could construe that as major change) might be true, but NO IS TALKING ABOUT MAKING MAJOR CHANGES. People are talking about ADDING to what we already have, which up to this point isn't happening and it is somrthing that has sustained SA through a 7 year run with three titles.

But yeah, they basically just stand pat and do nothing all offseason.

Just using the "uh" which you use in every single post you write is an insult. Not a big one, mind, but one nonetheless, that pretty much makes whatever follows like you're talking down to the recipient.

I don't know anything about basketball? Do you have any clue what you are saying? I never claimed to know more about the Suns or the NBA than you, but that is a blatant insult. The only thing you have a problem with is that I don't agree with some of your opinions, and that in turn means I don't know anything about basketball. Right.

When did I say, point blank, that I don't think we need to make any additions? I have consistently said that we need to add people--the ONLY thing I dispute is the fact that the organization is falling flat on their faces this offseason.

1) I could care less about the draft picks. We ended up getting a 3rd pick next summer, which is great. Nobody we could have gotten, including Sergio Rodriguez, would have put us over the top for a championship. Marcus Williams is a big question mark, but I have to think that there was something unsettling about him which made 20 teams pass on him before he came to us. 20 teams that needed talent.

2) Tim Thomas--I admit, I was looking forward to him coming back. And he would have still been a nice piece of our team. Assuming the last 3 months were the "new" Tim Thomas, and not the Tim Thomas playing for a contract. There is nothing to say he won't regress into what made him so undesirable for so long. The Suns offered him a contract that they wouldn't budge on--I don't know why they wouldn't--we only assume it's because of the questions about his play. Remember, although he was integral in the playoffs, we barely played .500 ball in the regular season while he was on the team.

3) John Salmons--my opinion about this is well-known. I think he would have been overpaid, but he probably would have fit in the system. We offered him a good deal, but he chose playing time and a starting role over a backup position. Money had nothing to do with his decision because the money was the same. Do you actually blame him for choosing Toronto? I'd probably do the same thing. What did you want the Suns to do? The only way they could sweeten their offer was by adding more zeroes to the end of it, and they weren't going to do that. They certainly weren't going to promise him a ton of minutes, and CERTAINLY weren't going to give him a starting role.

Those are the 3 moves we know that we were involved in. The rest is speculation, including Harpring, Lindsey Hunter, Bobby Jackson, etc...

Remember the last aging point guard we brought in to help take some pressure off our starter?

Howard Eisley.

Give the front office a chance. If they fail to resign Diaw, THEN we can get the pitchforks out because I will definitely be on that bandwagon. But right now, in this, the most boring time of the year, all we can do is sit on our hands and see what happens. But as it stands, assuming worst case and we add a few undrafted rookies to be our 11th-13th men, we still have a decent team. Injuries notwithstanding, of course.

 

[Chaplin]

here the cruz of the problem - you're saying on one hand that we've had a revolving door of star or all-star players, while at the same time pimping SA for not making changes, but your argument as to the above falls apart for one simple reason - WHEN YOU ARE A TITLE CONTENDER (SA - from the moment Duncan got there) YOU KEEP YOUR TEAM AND ALL-STARS TOGETHER - when you are the Suns and you watch Kidd get his ass bounced out of the playoffs for 5 years and then watch Marbury take your team barely to the playoffs ONCE sandwhiched in between two completely crap-ass years - YOU NEED TO MAKE MAJOR CHANGES BECAUSE YOU'RE SUPERSTARS DEFINE THE TEAM AND THE TEAM WAS - NOT A CONTENDER - THEY WERE MEDIOCRE.

What exactly are you arguing here? It wasn't just Kidd's time, but years before that where we continually made major changes to the roster. Your capitalized lines up there are absolutely correct. YOU KEEP YOUR TEAM AND ALL-STARS TOGETHER WHEN YOU ARE A TITLE CONTENDER.

Doesn't that describe the Suns right now?

But hey - if you'd rather we had kept Kidd back in the day, or for ungoldy reason Marbury and went the route of the Sixers treading water for a decade with Iverson, then i guess that's your perogative. You don't take SA's stance until you are a contender and at THAT point, YOU STILL ADD TO THE TEAM JUST LIKE THEY HAVE EVERY YEAR SINCE 2002.

LOL, it's posts like this that make no sense. I never said anything about wanting to keep Marbury or Penny or Kidd or whatever. I only pointed out that in years past, we continually changed our roster around, regardless of record. And this summer appears to be a fundamental change in that philosophy that has been around for so long. That's all I pointed out. Do you disagree with that? Maybe you disagree with the new philosophy, but you can't tell me you don't agree that that's what they are doing.

 

[sly fly]

Cheese, I guess the only gripe I have with your ranting about the ineptness of Suns' current management is that there's still a lot of "ball" left to be played in the free agent/trade market.

You're very quick to point out management's inability to close deals, but I don't hear what you would have done? Let me hear it. What's your "dream" off-season?

A couple of scenarios have already proved PHX did all they could in trying to swing a signing or two...

- Salmons chose friggin' TORONTO over a chance to play for the Pacific Division champions. What would you have done?

- PHX set a number for TT, and he simply went for the cash. Can't blame him, but screw that SOB. Lying bastard traitor. I guess we'll see how much TT means to the Clips during the regular season. My guess is he'll come to play every now and then. Kudos to PHX for saying see ya' Kurt... thx for the memories.

- Lindsey Hunter. Thank god he chose Detroit. He really played well against PHX, didn't he?

- Sarver has basically come out and said he wants a CHAMPIONSHIP. Nowhere have I heard Sarver saying he doesn't want to spend the $$$ to win (within reason). The guy seems absolutely sincere when he speaks of his desire to WIN. Not sure if you've ever listened to him talk, but there's no doubting a fire burns within. Yeah, he may be a dork in the front row... but, the guy is a fierce competitor.

- This is the 1st off-season in recent memory in which PHX has stood pat (so far). The nucleus is still intact... no need to throw a bunch of guys on the court and hope they mesh together.

No need to PHX to go Tom Gugliotta on us.

Of course, adding the Beast and KT eliminates any possibility that the Clips and Lakers even come close to extending PHX next year.

My wish list come training camp:
- Lock up Boris Diaw.
- Lock up Barbosa. (Within reason).
- Get a young, shot blocker who can change the complexion of the game if only for a few minutes. Steven Hunter/Melvin Ely/Aaron Williams. Some of you hate what Hunter brings, but I disagree. I thought he made a super impact two years ago. Not sure what makes this guy tick, but he possesses a lot of rare ability for a big guy.
- Add Marcus Banks. Not sure of the particulars, but dangle one of next year's #1's. Sign and trade. Not sure why he's even available, but in my mind is one of the best up-and-coming guards in the league.
- John Lucas/Travis Diener. Either one would be fine for the minimum. *NOTE* Haven't seen Lucas play since he was in college, but I guess he's really taken his game to another level. His bloodlines are good as long as he doesn't share his dad's favorite pasttime. Diener can shoot, but his D (due to his size) will always cause him to get posted, which is the kiss of death for most young, under-sized guards in the league.

Point being is that some of you are getting your panties all in a bunch over NOTHING. Relax, enjoy the summer, be glad we didn't dismantle the team. Cross your fingers Amare regains the explosiveness in his knees, and let's hope they come out and plow through the league.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese, I guess the only gripe I have with your ranting about the ineptness of Suns' current management is that there's still a lot of "ball" left to be played in the free agent/trade market.

You're very quick to point out management's inability to close deals, but I don't hear what you would have done? Let me hear it. What's your "dream" off-season?

Plain and simple, I REALIZE Sly that there's still a lot of "ball" left to be played in the FA/trade market, but I'm just wondering who still left out there to play with? I'm a "show me" guy - plain and simple and since this is where we discuss Suns b-ball and considering nothing has happened yet, I vent my frustrations. So until the Suns show me the ability ot get something done, I'm going to remain skeptical because nothing up till this point has really given me all that much confidence.

As far as what my "dream scenario" might have been - it's pretty easy - sign TT to the 4 year 21 million dollar deal. Now people are gonna say if you invest that kind of money in TT they would have to part with Diaw or Barbosa, but funny enough, I didn't hear ONE WORD of that argument when we were offering a similar deal to John Salmons.

And to be honest, beyond signing TT and getting Boris extended and Leo (at a reasonable price) I would have been good with that, hell, even ECSTATIC and have said so, numerous times. I think having a frontcourt rotation of Amare, Kurt, Marion, Diaw and Thomas would have given the Suns something they have NEVER had - big men depth, with unbelievable versatility and that can't be denied. I think that team would have been a freaking Juggernaut, heads and tails above everyone else. Now, I think we're merely contenders(and I DO think we are contenders), a notch below Dallas and SA. I just thoughts we could have and should have been more.

Now you might blow TT out of the water and say he's a lying traitor, but what he said was the truth, he'd take less to play here - 3 million dollars is a LOT of money and it's not like he went ot he freaking Hawks, he went to a very good team in the Clippers where he'll be their replacement for Vlad. Having that kind of guy as your 8th man (especially on this club) would have been pretty damn sick. It makes JR that much better as our 9th man as well, because as our 8th man, he can't be depended upon (which all title teams NEED), but as our 9th man, he can be better depth than what most teams have.

So, that's it - would I try and pull a sign and trade for Banks, as well.

The biggest thing to me now is Boris and Leo and after seeing the JJ fiasco three years ago as the only thing I have to go on in "in between" extensions, I don't have much faith that those deasl are going to get done.

Of course, adding the Beast and KT eliminates any possibility that the Clips and Lakers even come close to extending PHX next year.

1) The Lakers don't even belong in the conversation, but adding "the Beast" and KT doesn't elminate anything IMO for a couple of reasons. I still think it's gonna be a couple years before we see anything beast-like from Amare. I hope to hell to proven wrong, but consider me a skeptic based on every player I've ever seen come back from micro-fracture. And as far as KT, I love the guy, but are you telling me you're not even a little-bit worried that his body, which is another year older, will be able to make the full season this year? A stress fracture can be a repetitve injury and for a guy who's getting long in the tooth and who's body broke down last season and took a RIDICULOUS amount of time to heal, he scares me a little also.

That doesn't even take into consideration that I think the playoffs probably did more for the Clippers' ego and believing in themselves than any off-season acquisition did. That team actually had LA on it's jock. It's game actually got BETTER ratings versus the Suns than the Lakers did. And they're not losing anyone AND I believe they're upgrading Rasho with TT. Not to mention that Livingston's game is going to get better. However, all that being said, Dunleavy's their coach and he's a complete moron, but I do see them as a threat.

My wish list come training camp:
- Lock up Boris Diaw.
- Lock up Barbosa. (Within reason).
- Get a young, shot blocker who can change the complexion of the game if only for a few minutes. Steven Hunter/Melvin Ely/Aaron Williams. Some of you hate what Hunter brings, but I disagree. I thought he made a super impact two years ago. Not sure what makes this guy tick, but he possesses a lot of rare ability for a big guy.
- Add Marcus Banks. Not sure of the particulars, but dangle one of next year's #1's. Sign and trade. Not sure why he's even available, but in my mind is one of the best up-and-coming guards in the league.
- John Lucas/Travis Diener. Either one would be fine for the minimum. *NOTE* Haven't seen Lucas play since he was in college, but I guess he's really taken his game to another level. His bloodlines are good as long as he doesn't share his dad's favorite pasttime. Diener can shoot, but his D (due to his size) will always cause him to get posted, which is the kiss of death for most young, under-sized guards in the league.

Point being is that some of you are getting your panties all in a bunch over NOTHING.

really I think the point is that it is the dog-days of summer and most of us are bored out of our minds and this is where we take out our boredom.

 

[Joe Mama]

lol. don't flatter yourself chap. i'm posting just to disagree with you, i'm posting because i can't help but disagree with you. you also forgot about the inability to trade up in the draft. that was another attempt and failure. as for the other rumors . . . where's there's smoke there's usually fire. particularly in the nba. and it's like you haven't read a single post that i've posted on any thread for weeks. it's not about money. it's about competency. somehow the previous regime was able to get players to sign on, even for less cash and a lesser role. kinda like the big boys like san antonio and the heat, and lakers of old, do. dollars being even those teams tend to get the players they want. we aren't seeing that with this regime. therein lies our hypothesis of incompetence.

Their inability to trade up in the draft? If they had offered enough to move up in the draft you guys would probably be screaming along with several of us that they had given up too much. I know there were players that they really liked up in the top 15 or so. Either the teams they were trying to trade with decided to stick in the draft, or they got better offers from somewhere else. You look at it as a negative when it was most likely a positive that they didn't give up too much just to make a move and please a bunch of impatient fans.

I actually agree that they need to make some moves this off-season, but guess what. There is still a lot of time to go. Calling the off-season a failure or even a failure so far is just not right in my opinion. In about October if they haven't made enough improvements in my opinion I'll be happy to say that the off-season was a failure.


nowagimp]A complete disaster? A complete disaster was Amare going out with surgery last year. A disaster was Raja tearing a calf muscle in the WCF. How can a team looking for a 8th 9th and 10th man have a complete disaster by not signing the first few choices? Last year when the suns lost JJ(a possible future all star, starting 2) it might have been arguable that it was a disaster, not knowing that Boris would be a stud. But now we have a "complete disaster". I sure hope that the suns management is not so panicked.

The suns have 3 first round picks in the best draft in decades next year. Everybody wants to pry those picks loose in a "deal". It is unfortunately boring when the suns dont make any moves, but I fail to see an impending disaster. Guys, ya need to find a way to chill.[/QUOTE]

A-freaking-men

everyone keeps talking about the deepest draft in decades. realistically the probability of the suns and cavs picks panning out into impact players is probably relatively low. the hawks pick is the money pick, the other two are just tremendous gambles.

If the possibility of those draft picks panning out is relatively well in a very good draft what would it have been this year in a completely lame draft? Furthermore, they don't necessarily need to use all three of those draft picks. In fact I would bet they don't even use two of them. They'll probably try to package those draft picks to move up or make a deal. Maybe they'll successfully move up next year? Maybe they'll use that Cleveland pick and the Phoenix pick to pick up someone in the season that will help them make a run at a championship.

One thing we can be certain about is this. They won't be using any of those draft picks to try and load an overpaid Tim Thomas.

I meant the offseason so far, which I'm sure you understood. There's plenty of time for the Suns to turn this offseason around, but the last month has been indefensible.

the off-season so far has been uneventful. I'll easily give you that. "Indefensible"? Please, get a grip on the overall picture.

I think J.R Smith is exactly like Tracy McGrady.

Both came out of Highschool and got drafted because of their tremendous athletic ability, big size as guards and the ability to drain the 3.

Both were very raw and everyone knew it would take a few years to develope all of their basketball skills and the fundamentals of the game.

Both ended up in the dog house with their coaches within their first two seasons.

McGrady broke out his 3rd year getting a big increase in playing time.

Smith will most likely recieve way more playing time in Denver.

On athletic ability alone J.R Smith is on the level of only a few players in the NBA.But he can also shoot the 3 from anywhere on the court, and he has great handle.

Only thing keeping him back was his attitude towards Byron Scott(For whatever reason), and not being able to get himself out of the coaches doghouse.

He already has 3 skills that guarantee he will always have a spot in the NBA, and thats ridiculous Hops,Handle and Great shooting range.

If he works on the other stuff he'll be a star in this league.

He's worth the risk if all it would cost us was some second rounders.

they are both athletic, and they came out after high school. That's about where it stops. Tracy McGrady showed a lot of promise his first few seasons. He had great handles and was a very good defensive player. Nobody thought he was a problem either. Nobody would have even considered unloading him for a few second-round draft picks. "Ridiculous handle"? I honestly wonder who you are talking about because it isn't JR Smith.

Oh yeah, Tracy McGrady is about 6-9 with those great handles. JR Smith is just a little over 6-6. It's JOSH Smith then has the great size, athletic ability, and he came out of high school. He doesn't have the handles either though.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

In about October if they haven't made enough improvements in my opinion I'll be happy to say that the off-season was a failure.

Gee Joe, taking that stance, why don't we just shut down the board until October because apparently only then should we discuss an opinion about the off-season according to you and many others.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

the off-season so far has been uneventful. I'll easily give you that. "Indefensible"? Please, get a grip on the overall picture.

You guys can make all the excuses you want for Suns management failing at EVERY one of their offseason objectives so far but I certainly won't. They have plenty of time to turn it around and I will gladly change my tune should they make moves to solve their remaining needs. But to suggest everything is beer and skittles do far this offseason is flat out wrong considering the Suns have come up empty with every personnel move they have tried to make.

 

[Chaplin]

You guys can make all the excuses you want for Suns management failing at EVERY one of their offseason objectives so far but I certainly won't. They have plenty of time to turn it around and I will gladly change my tune should they make moves to solve their remaining needs. But to suggest everything is beer and skittles do far this offseason is flat out wrong considering the Suns have come up empty with every personnel move they have tried to make.

I guess when a player decides to choose a place due to playing time, it's considered a failure on the other team's management's part. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Why do you think we didn't raise our offer to TT? Seriously, I'd like to know your opinion on that, since you seem to think you are much better at figuring out a player's worth than the Suns organization. I'd just like to know.

That leaves the draft picks. The Suns have continuously said they liked NOBODY at those slots that were left. What would you have them do? They tried to trade them to get a player they wanted, but nobody bit. What is your reasoning for them getting rid of the picks, if this isn't the reason?

 

[George O'Brien]

You guys can make all the excuses you want for Suns management failing at EVERY one of their offseason objectives so far but I certainly won't. They have plenty of time to turn it around and I will gladly change my tune should they make moves to solve their remaining needs. But to suggest everything is beer and skittles do far this offseason is flat out wrong considering the Suns have come up empty with every personnel move they have tried to make.

It is easy to make changes if you are willing to pay a lot of money. It is hard to make changes that won't harm the team a couple of years down the road because the guy is untradeable.

How much IS an 8th guy worth? Is a guy who might struggle to average 20 minutes a game worth $30 million? Are you even sure he'll play?

Salmons didn't become Sun because he was afraid he might not even play. Let's be honest, if he did not shoot better than he did with the Sixers, he might not play that much.

I'd like to see the Suns lock in someone who can help, but I'd just as soon they didn't add a bad contract just to be doing something.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

"Probably". AKA, you don't know, you just think so because that's how this draft turned out. I'm not too enthusiastic about the late picks next year either, but I am sure more intrigued by them then the 2 we had this year.

i don't disagree with you chap on this one. but my lack of excitement for next years late picks has nothing to do with this year's late picks. though the suns have had late first round success (barbs, finley, person) it is far more likely to result in the malcom mackeys of the world.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And that has transferred over to your brother.

thanks for dragging me into it. i have no idea why it would have transferred to me . . .

 

[Chaplin]

i don't disagree with you chap on this one. but my lack of excitement for next years late picks has nothing to do with this year's late picks. though the suns have had late first round success (barbs, finley, person) it is far more likely to result in the malcom mackeys of the world.

Yep. The likelihood of that happening is higher this year than next as well.

 

[Chaplin]

thanks for dragging me into it. i have no idea why it would have transferred to me . . .

You and your brother's posts towards me are mirror images of each other. You also have strong opinions, backed up with a pretty good knowledge of the game, I'll never dispute that about either one of you guys.

I guess it's just depressing that even though we are die-hard Suns fans, we have nothing but bad feelings for each other. Even more disheartening since you guys (along with Se7en) are the only two guys I've ever met in person from this site...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You and your brother's posts towards me are mirror images of each other. You also have strong opinions, backed up with a pretty good knowledge of the game, I'll never dispute that about either one of you guys.

I guess it's just depressing that even though we are die-hard Suns fans, we have nothing but bad feelings for each other. Even more disheartening since you guys (along with Se7en) are the only two guys I've ever met in person from this site...

honestly chap, it makes me a little sad to see you type that. i don't really have bad feelings for you. in fact i'd be bummed if you left the board. i just get riled up in the midst of a debate and you and i are usually at polar ends of the spectrum when it comes to this stuff. you tend to take what i consider a homeristic view and i take a more skeptical (what you'd probably call a doomsday) view.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You and your brother's posts towards me are mirror images of each other. You also have strong opinions, backed up with a pretty good knowledge of the game, I'll never dispute that about either one of you guys.

I guess it's just depressing that even though we are die-hard Suns fans, we have nothing but bad feelings for each other. Even more disheartening since you guys (along with Se7en) are the only two guys I've ever met in person from this site...

That's okay Chap - I think of everyone here as family. There's some people in your family you can't stand and argue with ad naseum, but that stay within the family. Anyone else from outside comes in and start with one of us, you know the attack dogs turn their heads and focus on the real enemy. Hell, just go read the Smack forum where I tore D-Dogg a new a-hole over the last couple days. Sly and I have been yapping at each other throughout the offseason, but it doesn't stop him from revelling in the beating I gave D-Dogg, that sad pathetic Laker fan.

Besides, it's never personal - hell, you should have seen the wars 40 year and I used to get into on the Politics board or Lex, Nidan, or hell THE ENTIRE CARDS BOARD years back, but you know who I ALWAYS look for first when we all meet up at SDS (which is really an awesome/terrifying thing from the Cards board)? The guys who "try" to match wits with me because that's always the most interesting and we never take it too seriously and we wash everything down with a beer and "Man, I just hope we win this sucker"(well, maybe except Nidan - there's just some kind of arrogance coming from the pompous Birt! j/k Nidan if you're reading this).

Don't take this all too seriously. Even that stuff about me saying I think you're out to lunch basketball knowledge wise - because even if I believe it to be true, it doesn't mean I have bad feelings about you. I have a lot of friends who I think are out to lunch b-ball wise, but that doesn't mean I don't like them as a person. You LOVE the Suns and that's all I need to know about you to put you down in my book as a-okay and all the back and forth - who gives a crap - it's what makes our convos interesting to me and bottom line, I'M USUALLY WRONG about the Suns - hell, all you have to do is go back to when we signed Steve Nash as proof of that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And here's the REAL bottom line - the Suns NEED to do something because I have a sneaking suspicion ALL OF US ARE GOING OUT OF OUR MINDS WITH BOREDOM.

 

[Chaplin]

That's okay Chap - I think of everyone here as family. There's some people in your family you can't stand and argue with ad naseum, but that stay within the family. Anyone else from outside comes in and start with one of us, you know the attack dogs turn their heads and focus on the real enemy. Hell, just go read the Smack forum where I tore D-Dogg a new a-hole over the last couple days. Sly and I have been yapping at each other throughout the offseason, but it doesn't stop him from revelling in the beating I gave D-Dogg, that sad pathetic Laker fan.

Besides, it's never personal - hell, you should have seen the wars 40 year and I used to get into on the Politics board or Lex, Nidan, or hell THE ENTIRE CARDS BOARD years back, but you know who I ALWAYS look for first when we all meet up at SDS (which is really an awesome/terrifying thing from the Cards board)? The guys who "try" to match wits with me because that's always the most interesting and we never take it too seriously and we wash everything down with a beer and "Man, I just hope we win this sucker"(well, maybe except Nidan - there's just some kind of arrogance coming from the pompous Birt! j/k Nidan if you're reading this).

Don't take this all too seriously. Even that stuff about me saying I think you're out to lunch basketball knowledge wise - because even if I believe it to be true, it doesn't mean I have bad feelings about you. I have a lot of friends who I think are out to lunch b-ball wise, but that doesn't mean I don't like them as a person. You LOVE the Suns and that's all I need to know about you to put you down in my book as a-okay and all the back and forth - who gives a crap - it's what makes our convos interesting to me and bottom line, I'M USUALLY WRONG about the Suns - hell, all you have to do is go back to when we signed Steve Nash as proof of that.

My God, cheese on the Politics board? I would have to make extensive use of the smiley.

Our conversations sure are interesting, that much I'll say...

 

[Chaplin]

And here's the REAL bottom line - the Suns NEED to do something because I have a sneaking suspicion ALL OF US ARE GOING OUT OF OUR MINDS WITH BOREDOM.

Well, that I will most definitely agree with you on!