James Harden Traded to Houston

[95pro]

I'm wondering if Gortat, Dudley, unprotected #1 next season and a few throw-in pieces would have been able to get it done.

why would they want gortat?

they needed a direct replacement for harden, which kmart almost is. he can score off the bench.

dudley cant fill that role either

 

[JS22]

why would they want gortat?

they needed a direct replacement for harden, which kmart almost is. he can score off the bench.

dudley cant fill that role either

Because he is a lot better than Perkins, who I think they'd have to include to make the salaries match anyway. (Too lazy to hit the ESPN trade machine.)

Ignoring what Dudley has been doing this year, I think he'd fit the 6th man role perfectly in OKC. He helps spread the floor and could give them 10-12 a night pretty easily. Plus his defense and hustle would be good off the bench.

If we went back to the start of the season Gortat, Dudley and an unprotected first round pick would seem like a better deal than Kevin Martin.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Because he is a lot better than Perkins, who I think they'd have to include to make the salaries match anyway. (Too lazy to hit the ESPN trade machine.)

Ignoring what Dudley has been doing this year, I think he'd fit the 6th man role perfectly in OKC. He helps spread the floor and could give them 10-12 a night pretty easily. Plus his defense and hustle would be good off the bench.

If we went back to the start of the season Gortat, Dudley and an unprotected first round pick would seem like a better deal than Kevin Martin.

Sure, but you're leaving out the fact Houston also received Lamb and two first round picks. There's no comparison even if you go back to the start of the season when Dudley might have had a little more value, especially since Gortat would have had a lot less value then.

But, suspend reality for awhile and pretend they fell for it. We would still be a bad team with a shaky future because we'd once again be the same old center-less Suns team we've always been. Historically, it's been far easier to find a good wing player than a good center and Perkins is just a good backup. This far-fetched dream trade would probably only work for us if Harden turns out to be a top 5 type player and I think he's more like a top 20 guy when all is said and done.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

But, suspend reality for awhile and pretend they fell for it. We would still be a bad team with a shaky future because we'd once again be the same old center-less Suns team we've always been. Historically, it's been far easier to find a good wing player than a good center and Perkins is just a good backup. This far-fetched dream trade would probably only work for us if Harden turns out to be a top 5 type player and I think he's more like a top 20 guy when all is said and done.

Steve

I dunno, at least we'd have something to build around. Everyone on our team is replaceable, it's much harder to find guys that aren't.

Harden alone a good team doesn't make, but I'd feel much more confident about our future than with our current setup.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I dunno, at least we'd have something to build around. Everyone on our team is replaceable, it's much harder to find guys that aren't.

Harden alone a good team doesn't make, but I'd feel much more confident about our future than with our current setup.

I think you're undervaluing Gortat and Dragic. I also think you're underestimating the importance of a good center. Prior to the start of this season, I really thought our best chance to succeed involved Beasley stepping up and becoming a superstar and then finding another one to put with him. Now, the Beasley superstar idea was always a long shot (understatement) but I also think I was wrong about the whole thing in the first place. Dragic and Gortat are even better players than I realized and if I had to choose between building around those two and nothing else or Harden and nothing else, it would be Goran and Marcin no contest.

Our biggest problem right now is a lack of quality role players, it's all that's keeping us from being a playoff team. We'd still need a true superstar to have a good chance at winning it all but I'm talking about a Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Howard level player and I just don't think Harden is quite at that level. I'd love to have him along with our current group but not in place of them. With Harden and the rest of our squad intact, we're probably good enough to beat anyone but there'd still be a half-dozen teams that would have a better chance of winning it all.

Anyway, all of that is really besides the point. We would have had to offer a lot more than Gortat, Dudley and a pick to enter the Harden sweepstakes. By the time we sweetened the deal enough to interest OKC, we'd have been looking at Harden and a bunch of scrubs and I doubt seriously he'd have wanted to live with that much of a rebuilding process.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I think you're undervaluing Gortat and Dragic. I also think you're underestimating the importance of a good center. Prior to the start of this season, I really thought our best chance to succeed involved Beasley stepping up and becoming a superstar and then finding another one to put with him. Now, the Beasley superstar idea was always a long shot (understatement) but I also think I was wrong about the whole thing in the first place. Dragic and Gortat are even better players than I realized and if I had to choose between building around those two and nothing else or Harden and nothing else, it would be Goran and Marcin no contest.

Our biggest problem right now is a lack of quality role players, it's all that's keeping us from being a playoff team. We'd still need a true superstar to have a good chance at winning it all but I'm talking about a Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Howard level player and I just don't think Harden is quite at that level. I'd love to have him along with our current group but not in place of them. With Harden and the rest of our squad intact, we're probably good enough to beat anyone but there'd still be a half-dozen teams that would have a better chance of winning it all.

Anyway, all of that is really besides the point. We would have had to offer a lot more than Gortat, Dudley and a pick to enter the Harden sweepstakes. By the time we sweetened the deal enough to interest OKC, we'd have been looking at Harden and a bunch of scrubs and I doubt seriously he'd have wanted to live with that much of a rebuilding process.

Steve

Ha, I think you're overrating Dragic and Gortat, and especially the true value of a center. Dragic is very good, but he's also not a top 10 PG. Gortat has played well, but he is not a franchise player, and is going to be looking for a huge extension on the wrong side of 30. Centers? Pfft...what is a center anymore? The teams in the finals would certainly disagree with you.

Don't get me wrong, they're both nice pieces, but ultimately replaceable. In any event, this is all mental masturbation anyway. I would have given up a ton for Harden, because I believe that you need to acquire stars at almost any cost, and that role players can be found in the draft/FA. You can't even start to think about being a legit team until you acquire stars.

 

[jagu]

Centers? Pfft...what is a center anymore? The teams in the finals would certainly disagree with you.
.

That's a silly statement considering both teams had probably the two best players in the NBA on their roster, namely Lebron James and Kevin Durant.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

That's a silly statement considering both teams had probably the two best players in the NBA on their roster, namely Lebron James and Kevin Durant.

Uh, what? (check out what positions they play...you may be surprised)

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ha, I think you're overrating Dragic and Gortat, and especially the true value of a center. Dragic is very good, but he's also not a top 10 PG. Gortat has played well, but he is not a franchise player, and is going to be looking for a huge extension on the wrong side of 30. Centers? Pfft...what is a center anymore? The teams in the finals would certainly disagree with you.

Don't get me wrong, they're both nice pieces, but ultimately replaceable. In any event, this is all mental masturbation anyway. I would have given up a ton for Harden, because I believe that you need to acquire stars at almost any cost, and that role players can be found in the draft/FA. You can't even start to think about being a legit team until you acquire stars.

I agree with this comment but again, I think you underestimate Dragic and Gortat and overestimate Harden. So far this season and admittedly that is a very small sample, Dragic has been one of the best PG's in the league. Gortat's had some bad moments but his defense has been excellent and he's still an effective offensive option.

I'd actually rather have Dragic on his contract than Harden on his. By the end of the season, most people will be viewing James as a shorter version of Joe Johnson - a great complementary piece but a real step lower than the franchise player he's being paid as. Check out his stats and watch them as they continue to worsen this season.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Check out his stats and watch them as they continue to worsen this season.

Steve

Well, it's unlikely he'll end up as the leading scorer this season (where he is right now) but I still think he'll be up there. 27/5/5 seems unsustainable, but even if he ends up at 22/5/5 or so, he'll easily be above a top 20 player, maybe even top 10. Surely worthy of a max deal.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, it's unlikely he'll end up as the leading scorer this season (where he is right now) but I still think he'll be up there. 27/5/5 seems unsustainable, but even if he ends up at 22/5/5 or so, he'll easily be above a top 20 player, maybe even top 10. Surely worthy of a max deal.

If I come across as something other than a Harden fan, I've not made my position clear. I like the guy a lot and I don't think it's unreasonable to call him a max player. But, there are max players and then there are MAX players. He's not in that elite group, he's in that next one with Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Deron Williams, and about a dozen other guys. In Houston though he's going to have to carry a team and I think his all-around game will suffer because of it. He'll keep his scoring average up but he'll do it by shooting 20 plus times a game.

I also think Harden will disappoint in the postseason if he's the top player on your team. Good defenses will take him out in critical moments; he's very stoppable with the right kind of defender/defense. He dominated at ASU but IIRC, he disappeared in the tourney against both Temple and Syracuse. Now, most players fall short when they are forced to be the main guy with little protection around them but it's what separates the Kobe's from the Harden's.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He dominated at ASU but IIRC, he disappeared in the tourney against both Temple and Syracuse.

Yeah, I don't put too much stock into what he did in the tourney. Sure, he had some tough games, but that was a long time ago. I see him as a completely different player now.

Now, most players fall short when they are forced to be the main guy with little protection around them but it's what separates the Kobe's from the Harden's.

I guess, although Kobe is a pretty rough comparison. We're talking about arguably one of the best players of all time. Further, and even more importantly, I'm sure you remember how effective Bryant was when his talent was not transcendent. Not very impressive, and he's an all time great.

Outside of Lebron and Durant, I don't really think there is anyone else (maybe that douchebag Howard) that can single handedly make a team dominant. I think Harden is in that next group with the Wades/Kobe/Aldridge/Love level, who can make a team great, but still need help. I guess we'll see if he can keep his current production up.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, I don't put too much stock into what he did in the tourney. Sure, he had some tough games, but that was a long time ago. I see him as a completely different player now.



I guess, although Kobe is a pretty rough comparison. We're talking about arguably one of the best players of all time. Further, and even more importantly, I'm sure you remember how effective Bryant was when his talent was not transcendent. Not very impressive, and he's an all time great.

Outside of Lebron and Durant, I don't really think there is anyone else (maybe that douchebag Howard) that can single handedly make a team dominant. I think Harden is in that next group with the Wades/Kobe/Aldridge/Love level, who can make a team great, but still need help. I guess we'll see if he can keep his current production up.

I agree with your rough grouping although I think there are a couple more that separate themselves from that second group even if they aren't quite at the Lebron/Durant level. Plus there's another dozen or so that belong in that next big grouping, players such as Westbrook.

I like Harden but I think Westbrook's game/mentality would translate better to the big star role than James does. It's too bad OKC didn't move Russell and keep Harden. I think it would have made them far more dangerous if they had kept Harden and replaced Westbrook with a solid PG. A Dragic, Harden, Durant trio would have been perfect for them especially given the rest of their roster.

Steve

 

[jagu]

James Harden= Superstar

 

[jagu]

Harden only has that market value because the shooting guard position is abmyssal in the NBA right now.

He is not an allstar at this point. This situation is a little bit like Joe Johnson to Atlanta.

For OKC I think Jeremy Lamb COULD be as good or better than Harden in the long run and Martin is not that much worse right now.

What this trade proves and what the Gordon offer sheet proved is simply this - rebuilding through free agency is absolutely foolish.

Okay there slinslin....

 

[slinslin]

Please tell us who though half a year ago that James Harden was an allstar already, pretty much nobody. He was seen more as a poor mans Ginobili.

It worked out for Houston, good for them.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Please tell us who though half a year ago that James Harden was an allstar already, pretty much nobody. He was seen more as a poor mans Ginobili.

It worked out for Houston, good for them.

Just the people who watched him play. I don't think very many of us expected him to be quite this good but it wasn't hard to project him as an All Star.

Steve

 

[JS22]

I wonder what the hold up was with the Suns. Apparently they were talking with OKC for about a week about Harden.

I would have traded Dudley, Gortat, and an uprotected 1st without hesitation.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I wonder what the hold up was with the Suns. Apparently they were talking with OKC for about a week about Harden.

I would have traded Dudley, Gortat, and an uprotected 1st without hesitation.

I wouldn't have but today, I might have to re-think that. However, Houston's offer was still a better deal for OKC. And, for all we know, we may well have offered them Dudley, Gortat and our unprotected 1st.

Steve

 

[Russ Smith]

I admit I'm surprised how great he's been. I figured the hot start would tail off but man 46 against his old team with great rebound and assist numbers too. Just killed it.

Hats off to him I guess he was right about wanting a max deal.

 

[elindholm]

I admit I'm surprised how great he's been. I figured the hot start would tail off

I'm with you. I didn't think he had this kind of ceiling, especially after how he disappeared in last year's Finals.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I agree with this comment but again, I think you underestimate Dragic and Gortat and overestimate Harden. So far this season and admittedly that is a very small sample, Dragic has been one of the best PG's in the league. Gortat's had some bad moments but his defense has been excellent and he's still an effective offensive option.

I'd actually rather have Dragic on his contract than Harden on his. By the end of the season, most people will be viewing James as a shorter version of Joe Johnson - a great complementary piece but a real step lower than the franchise player he's being paid as. Check out his stats and watch them as they continue to worsen this season.

Steve

Still disagree with me on Harden?

And Eric - while he had a bad Finals, he was a beast the rest of the playoffs.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Still disagree with me on Harden?

And Eric - while he had a bad Finals, he was a beast the rest of the playoffs.

Yes and no. I always wanted him here, I was just unwilling and still am unwilling to give up everything for him. I knew he'd be good, I never thought he'd be great so I'd up the ante but I still wouldn't give it all away. I'd trade Gortat, Dudley and a first round pick but it was something like Gortat, Dudley, Dragic and multiple first round picks that I was disagreeing with. Below is my first entry into this conversation and I still feel this way for the most part.

I wouldn't mind adding Harden and giving him the max but we had no shot at this without crippling our future. Harden might be a max or near max player but do you really want to watch this team if we had to part with 3 or 4 limited protection first round picks in order to make it happen? We didn't have a Martin or a Lamb to include so we would have had to make up for it by giving away picks.

About the only thing I'd change is I'd dump the qualification I put on Harden. He's clearly a max player and once you get past Durant and Lebron, he's as good as anyone in the league. That kind of player is worth taking a risk on. Like you were suggesting, I guess I'd probably give up our entire roster (minus Dragic or Gortat) for him as long as we didn't have to give up our first round picks also.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Yes and no. I always wanted him here, I was just unwilling and still am unwilling to give up everything for him. I knew he'd be good, I never thought he'd be great so I'd up the ante but I still wouldn't give it all away. I'd trade Gortat, Dudley and a first round pick but it was something like Gortat, Dudley, Dragic and multiple first round picks that I was disagreeing with. Below is my first entry into this conversation and I still feel this way for the most part.



About the only thing I'd change is I'd dump the qualification I put on Harden. He's clearly a max player and once you get past Durant and Lebron, he's as good as anyone in the league. That kind of player is worth taking a risk on. Like you were suggesting, I guess I'd probably give up our entire roster (minus Dragic or Gortat) for him as long as we didn't have to give up our first round picks also.

Steve

Yep, just wallowing in my own crapulence, to quote the great Mr. Burns. James is obviously someone to build around, and until we get one of those players, we'll continue to be irrelevant.

Hopefully we find one soon. (Although I'm not holding my breath)

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yep, just wallowing in my own crapulence, to quote the great Mr. Burns. James is obviously someone to build around, and until we get one of those players, we'll continue to be irrelevant.

Hopefully we find one soon. (Although I'm not holding my breath)

I agree he's someone to build around and I agree we won't likely find one soon. Our only real sticking point is that I think a roster of Harden and no one else is even worse than where we are right now.

Steve