James Harden Traded to Houston

[95pro]

Dayum harden with those numbers already...

 

[Griffin]

What a game from Harden. First game, but it was also only his 8th career start. Would have looked great in a Suns uni.

 

[SunsTzu]

IF you had said I prefer money over winning we wouldn't have had this back and forth in the first place.

We're not going to agree because you think Joe Johnson making more money is better than Horry winning 7 titles.

He's having a great debut I'll give you that. He got exactly what he wanted so far he's got total freedom on the court.

I never said it wasn't about money with Harden, just that he was somehow more responsible for being traded than the Thunder or other players.

And I said I'd rather have JJ's career than Horry's, it's not just about money.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Fair enough, most of this is dependent on how you view Harden.

Considering he's a two guard who can create his own shot and set up others, (while also being a decent defender) I think he's a guy you can build around. You'll need two other star caliber players, but I also think there are plenty of guys that would want to play with James, and with a top 10 (hopefully 5) pick, you'd at least have 2 guys you feel you can build around.

At the very least, you'd have 1, which is better than our current 0.

I'd love to have Harden on this team. I think a Dragic, Harden, Gortat trio could really grow into something. I just don't know how you put enough talent around him if you have to start with a bare cupboard, especially if you have to give up draft picks too.

Steve

 

[chickenhead]

It's hard for me to begrudge anyone taking what they consider to be a better job offer. I think people overreact when they say someone just cares about the money, or they want to be the man. More likely it's just partially those things: he now a has better wage and more seniority. People go to "lesser" companies all the time for those sorts of things.

In any case, I would have liked to have seen him in a Suns jersey, and I sure wouldn't have been complaining about him wanting to be the man then. That would be one of the main reasons to want him on your team.

 

[slinslin]

I'd love to have Harden on this team. I think a Dragic, Harden, Gortat trio could really grow into something. I just don't know how you put enough talent around him if you have to start with a bare cupboard, especially if you have to give up draft picks too.

Steve

If I am Dwight Howard I'd seriously consider leaving the Lakers for the Rockets to team up with Harden and the rest of their youth.

Building around Harden when you are left with caproom should not be that hard, sure you still need true a franchise player to really win a title but it is a start.

Paying Harden the max and then paying 7-9M$ per for a bunch of only above average players is what makes it hard.

In the NBA you rarely win paying 5 guys 10M$, you are better off paying 3 guys 15 each and 2 for 2.5 each.

 

[bankybruce]

If I am Dwight Howard I'd seriously consider leaving the Lakers for the Rockets to team up with Harden and the rest of their youth.

Building around Harden when you are left with caproom should not be that hard, sure you still need true a franchise player to really win a title but it is a start.

Paying Harden the max and then paying 7-9M$ per for a bunch of only above average players is what makes it hard.

In the NBA you rarely win paying 5 guys 10M$, you are better off paying 3 guys 15 each and 2 for 2.5 each.

Harden, Lin and Asik are owed about $40 million for the 2013-2014 season (46 the next year) and the salary cap is estimate to be about 60 million that year. They have about 8 other contracts through at least next season for about $13 million, for a total of $53 million in salaries for the 2013-2014 season. That leaves $7 million for Howard. They have no trable assets to get Hoaward that will equal in salary/talent. No one is going to touch Asik or Lin at those numbers and the rest are role players that made average money.

Howard to Houston will never happen. He will be very limited if he wants to win and get paid.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's hard for me to begrudge anyone taking what they consider to be a better job offer. I think people overreact when they say someone just cares about the money, or they want to be the man. More likely it's just partially those things: he now a has better wage and more seniority. People go to "lesser" companies all the time for those sorts of things.

In any case, I would have liked to have seen him in a Suns jersey, and I sure wouldn't have been complaining about him wanting to be the man then. That would be one of the main reasons to want him on your team.

Oh I agree, and people also routinely willingly take paycuts so their company won't have a layoff. or forego accruing vacation time etc.

I guess what bothers me is the focus isn't on winning it's on other things. Not just harden, look at all the ripping LeBron took for going to Miami, oh he's just admitting he can't win without a guy like Wade, Jordan or Bird would never do that. He willingly chose to go to a team that would win. Now I hated the announcement and how he didn't notifiy Cleveland, but I had no real issue with him choosing to go a team that gave him a better chance of winning.

He's not a bad guy for doing it and he clearly has the situation he wanted.

 

[slinslin]

Harden, Lin and Asik are owed about $40 million for the 2013-2014 season (46 the next year) and the salary cap is estimate to be about 60 million that year. They have about 8 other contracts through at least next season for about $13 million, for a total of $53 million in salaries for the 2013-2014 season. That leaves $7 million for Howard. They have no trable assets to get Hoaward that will equal in salary/talent. No one is going to touch Asik or Lin at those numbers and the rest are role players that made average money.

Howard to Houston will never happen. He will be very limited if he wants to win and get paid.

http://www.storytellerscontracts.com/

Asik is a tradeable asset, after this season he makes 2yrs/16M$ and the same thing is true for Lin.

Looking at Houston the only guaranteed contracts they have next year are

Asik 8.4
Lin 8.4
White 1.7
Jones 1.5
Motiejunas 1.4
Delfino 3.0 partial 1.000.000 guaranteed
Parsons 900k partial
Smith 800k partial
Machado 700k partial

plus Harden's first contract year around 13M$ or so I think.

That is 37.8M$ tied up in 9 players assuming they cut Delfino. That is more than 22M$ caproom and easily enough to sign a max contract even with capholds and new draftpicks.

Your math is wrong, Asik, Lin and Harden combined for 30M$ not 40M$.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'd love to have Harden on this team. I think a Dragic, Harden, Gortat trio could really grow into something. I just don't know how you put enough talent around him if you have to start with a bare cupboard, especially if you have to give up draft picks too.

Steve

Well, it would at least be a start. Dragic and Gortat certainly seem like tradeable assets, and you'd at least have 1 piece of the puzzle.

Went to the game last night, was impressed with Dragic, Scola and Tucker. Telfair was relentless on D, but had trouble running the offense.

This is pretty clearly a team that's going nowhere. The stadium was HALF FULL on opening night, and I can only imagine that getting worse as the year goes on.

At least we have some young talent to get ex... oh wait, Morris is still garbage with no potential and loved this little anecdote about our other lottery pick:

"Does the team’s first-round draft pick, Kendall Marshall, have the work ethic to improve his game so that he can contribute at some point this season?

The Suns had four player-development coaches but only two players who remained after the morning shoot around to work. Marshall was not one of them. That’s never a good sign."

From where we were 5 years ago, Sarver has completely sucked the life out of this franchise. Hate to be negative, but it's so aggravating to have my favorite team completely marginalized, with so little hope for the future.

The only silver lining in all of this is that we'll be bad enough to at least get a future star in the draft. I really see no other reason for optimism.

 

[AzStevenCal]

From where we were 5 years ago, Sarver has completely sucked the life out of this franchise. Hate to be negative, but it's so aggravating to have my favorite team completely marginalized, with so little hope for the future.

The only silver lining in all of this is that we'll be bad enough to at least get a future star in the draft. I really see no other reason for optimism.

I can't disagree with anything you say here. But, I'm unwilling to be negative about all this until Sarver and crew absolutely force me to be. My life is better when I look at the possibilities rather than focus on the downside. I can certainly understand why other Suns fans are unwilling or unable to approach it the same way given the circumstances. For some, the only silver lining might be that this team seems poised to help Sarver make that business decision we all hope he'll soon make.

Steve

 

[chickenhead]

Oh I agree, and people also routinely willingly take paycuts so their company won't have a layoff. or forego accruing vacation time etc.

I guess what bothers me is the focus isn't on winning it's on other things. Not just harden, look at all the ripping LeBron took for going to Miami, oh he's just admitting he can't win without a guy like Wade, Jordan or Bird would never do that. He willingly chose to go to a team that would win. Now I hated the announcement and how he didn't notifiy Cleveland, but I had no real issue with him choosing to go a team that gave him a better chance of winning.

He's not a bad guy for doing it and he clearly has the situation he wanted.

Good points, and of course it's interesting how now that LeBron has won (and in dominating fashion) the narrative has changed from "he'd rather be a sidekick and can't handle the pressure" to "he's now competing for immortality." In the end, it was more the presentation of The Decision that bugs me. Just a sickening display. But I digress...

I do take SunsTzu's earlier point seriously about this contract being a baseline for Harden's next contract, too. Harden, like any star NBA player, is probably looking for another multi-year deal after this one, followed by something like a solid 2-year deal after that if his body holds up. So if I were Harden and my agent and financial advisors rolled out the long-term plan, it would make a lot of sense.

But I'll also go on record to say that if Harden re-signed for less because he wanted to win with the Thunder, I would ABSOLUTELY have applauded it. I really think there's something to be said for one-franchise careers if you can make it happen, too. In fact, the player who I think made the most short-sighted move recently was Pujols. Talk about leaving long-term endoresement money on the table. His grandkids wouldn't have had to pick up the check for a meal in St. Louis...

 

[elindholm]

I don't pass judgment one way or the other. Some people want to accumulate as much wealth as they can. I'd bet that, for everyone on this board, the opportunity to start earning twice as much money tomorrow would be awfully difficult to pass up, because we're all in income ranges where each dollar really matters.

But if I were already making $10 million a year, I personally would have no interest in changing to a less satisfying job that paid $15 million. $10 million a year is much, much more than I could ever come up with any way of spending, investing, leaving to heirs, or anything else. As a sum of money for a person and his family, it's hardly any different from infinity, to my way of thinking. But others are going to say, jeez, the difference between $10 million and $15 million is huge, and how can you turn that down? To each his own.

 

[slinslin]

This is pretty clearly a team that's going nowhere. The stadium was HALF FULL on opening night, and I can only imagine that getting worse as the year goes on.

Altough they offered like 3000 tickets in give away promotions I heard..

 

[ASUCHRIS]

But if I were already making $10 million a year, I personally would have no interest in changing to a less satisfying job that paid $15 million. $10 million a year is much, much more than I could ever come up with any way of spending, investing, leaving to heirs, or anything else. As a sum of money for a person and his family, it's hardly any different from infinity, to my way of thinking. But others are going to say, jeez, the difference between $10 million and $15 million is huge, and how can you turn that down? To each his own.

I totally agree, and while I haven't been in the situation, I'm quite confident I'd stick with a perfect situation and the chance to compete for multiple titles instead of just going for the higher paycheck.

That said, the explanation I always get for the athlete rationale is that it's a matter of respect, and most of them would rather be in a worse situation than swallow their pride. Petty to me, but obviously not my concern.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Altough they offered like 3000 tickets in give away promotions I heard..

Yep. They didn't sell a game out last year, and unless the Heat come to town, I doubt it will happen this year.

I know it was Halloween and all, but it was just depressing being there. The only reason I went was because I got free suite tickets. I can only imagine what a morgue it will be as the year goes on.

Another thing I just can't stand about the whole stadium experience is the wall of noise. From the minute you enter the building to the minute you leave, it's just a constant onslaught of noise/promotions/lights and all other sorts of BS.

For the life of me, I have no idea who it is supposed to appeal to, but it's just overwhelming. Are people that ADD that they need sound and all sorts of other crap in their face the entire game? I couldn't even talk to people two seats away from me.

 

[Russ Smith]

Good points, and of course it's interesting how now that LeBron has won (and in dominating fashion) the narrative has changed from "he'd rather be a sidekick and can't handle the pressure" to "he's now competing for immortality." In the end, it was more the presentation of The Decision that bugs me. Just a sickening display. But I digress...

I do take SunsTzu's earlier point seriously about this contract being a baseline for Harden's next contract, too. Harden, like any star NBA player, is probably looking for another multi-year deal after this one, followed by something like a solid 2-year deal after that if his body holds up. So if I were Harden and my agent and financial advisors rolled out the long-term plan, it would make a lot of sense.

But I'll also go on record to say that if Harden re-signed for less because he wanted to win with the Thunder, I would ABSOLUTELY have applauded it. I really think there's something to be said for one-franchise careers if you can make it happen, too. In fact, the player who I think made the most short-sighted move recently was Pujols. Talk about leaving long-term endoresement money on the table. His grandkids wouldn't have had to pick up the check for a meal in St. Louis...

And to be fair that's why I said to Suntzu if he'd said it was about the money(and admittedly it's not JUST the money) I wouldn't have debated.

I'm very jaded in that respect it's why I no longer follow baseball closely at all and why I tend to be frustrated with the NBA and for that matter college basketball. I get so sick of hearing 16 year old kids talking about how the key to their recruitment is who's going to play me at my NBA position. The latest in that regard is Aaron Gordon(Drew's younger brother) who keeps telling everyone he's a 3. Now his dad says he's a hybrid 2/3. The kid is a smaller Blake Griffin ,but he doesn't want to bang. So starting at the age of 15 he said in virtually every interview I'm not a 4 I'm a 3. I guess he has the right to choose his school based on whatever criteria he wants it just bugs me that from such a young age the focus is so clearly on the NBA.

They get to college and don't want to help the team. Then they go pro and do the same thing.

harden did in fact willingly come off the bench, he's not a bad guy I just wish in the end he'd valued chances at titles more.

But I do see the other side of it, technically both Durant and Westbrook could have left 1.5-2 million on the table for Harden and Ibaka and made it easier.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I totally agree, and while I haven't been in the situation, I'm quite confident I'd stick with a perfect situation and the chance to compete for multiple titles instead of just going for the higher paycheck.

That said, the explanation I always get for the athlete rationale is that it's a matter of respect, and most of them would rather be in a worse situation than swallow their pride. Petty to me, but obviously not my concern.

I understand where you guys are coming from, but for all he knows he could get injured a couple years from now and never be able to play basketball again. Fact is there is a big difference between 4 years/52m and 5 years/80m especially when you are looking to secure the future of your family for as long into the future as possible.

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't blame Harden at all. Extra $32M is a significant chunk of change regardless of how much you're making already.

 

[Bufalay]

I don't pass judgment one way or the other. Some people want to accumulate as much wealth as they can. I'd bet that, for everyone on this board, the opportunity to start earning twice as much money tomorrow would be awfully difficult to pass up, because we're all in income ranges where each dollar really matters.

But if I were already making $10 million a year, I personally would have no interest in changing to a less satisfying job that paid $15 million. $10 million a year is much, much more than I could ever come up with any way of spending, investing, leaving to heirs, or anything else. As a sum of money for a person and his family, it's hardly any different from infinity, to my way of thinking. But others are going to say, jeez, the difference between $10 million and $15 million is huge, and how can you turn that down? To each his own.

I'd imagine there are plenty of people in the world who wouldn't think the difference between $30k and $60k was significant. I think it's human nature to always want more. Of course I'm speaking about humanity in general, and not Harden specifically.

 

[SunsTzu]

And to be fair that's why I said to Suntzu if he'd said it was about the money(and admittedly it's not JUST the money) I wouldn't have debated.

I never meant to imply it wasn't about money, just that it wasn't just Harden who was motivate financially. Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and the Thunder all did what was in their best interests financially. Collison could have bailed on the Thunder for more money after his 1 year 13.2mil contract was up but he stayed loyal since it was obvious that contract was made to offset his current contract.

But I do see the other side of it, technically both Durant and Westbrook could have left 1.5-2 million on the table for Harden and Ibaka and made it easier.

I still think it's unreasonable for players coming off their rookie contracts to sign for less on their first big contract. It's not the norm even when vets do it.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Fact is there is a big difference between 4 years/52m and 5 years/80m especially when you are looking to secure the future of your family for as long into the future as possible.

With 52 million dollars, (even considering tax), I'd imagine with some conservative investment, you can secure the futures of the next 5 generations with ease.

 

[Russ Smith]

With 52 million dollars, (even considering tax), I'd imagine with some conservative investment, you can secure the futures of the next 5 generations with ease.

You would think so but so many athletes don't that I guess I can see why agents advise them to get the most they can. ESPN had a special on this not that long ago it's remarkable how many athletes go bankrupt within 5 years of retiring.

the most common reason is when they're making the money, they spend it, on their family, friends, multiple houses, cars etc. Once they lose the income, they still have all those bills, the friends don't go turn the car in once the guy ends his career etc.

They're also of course notoriously bad at things like prenuptial agreements, having kids with multiple women etc which all kills their wallet.

I always hope the next generation will learn that lesson and protect themselves because honestly the guy who's going to do that is going to do that no matter how much he earns. Hopefully harden and his generation have learned they're making enormous amounts of money.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

You would think so but so many athletes don't that I guess I can see why agents advise them to get the most they can. ESPN had a special on this not that long ago it's remarkable how many athletes go bankrupt within 5 years of retiring.

the most common reason is when they're making the money, they spend it, on their family, friends, multiple houses, cars etc. Once they lose the income, they still have all those bills, the friends don't go turn the car in once the guy ends his career etc.

They're also of course notoriously bad at things like prenuptial agreements, having kids with multiple women etc which all kills their wallet.

I always hope the next generation will learn that lesson and protect themselves because honestly the guy who's going to do that is going to do that no matter how much he earns. Hopefully harden and his generation have learned they're making enormous amounts of money.

Oh definitely...it seems impossible to blow through a million, let alone 100 million, but it's happened. Still, with a little common sense, it seems quite easy to avoid all that. When you have that kind of money, you don't have to take risks to stay fabulously wealthy.

 

[Phrazbit]

I dont blame him at all. Not only is it significantly more money but any individual accolades he wants to achieve as a player would have been very difficult to get as a 3rd wheel and frequently coming off the bench. It would be a pretty significant sacrifice for him to stay and say, "not only do I not care that I am getting 30 million less than I could elsewhere (and even more on further contracts) but I am willing to sacrifice potential all-star appearances, ect ect".

Yes, winning is huge, I would love if the Suns had a ton of guy who sacrificed a lot to win. But I dont blame Harden for taking money and taking an opportunity to prove himself. There are a lot of people (including myself) who questioned if Harden was a legit max guy or a good player benefiting from 2 superstars attracting defensive attention. If he stays in OKC those question probably dog him throughout his career.