Jones is second installment on JJ trade

[George O'Brien]

When trading JJ, there was an obvious concern as to whether the Suns got enough in return. We won't really know until the rest of the trade exemption is used and the draft picks selected. But so far, the results of Diaw and Jones make the deal look better than it appeared a few weeks ago.

For the sake of argument, let's assume the deal was just JJ for Diaw and Jones. JJ is much better than either of these guys and their relative salaries reflect that. However, it is not so clear he has such a massive advantage over the combination of the two.

Both Diaw and Jones are considered to be solid defenders, so the real compaison is on the offensive end. JJ is a much better overall offensive player, but when we break it down into parts his replacements may not be so far off:

1. Three point shooting
2. Running the offense as a backup PG
3. Creating his own shot

Statistically, JJ was a better three point shooter than Jones last season, but he played in an offense that got him lot of open looks. Look at the jump in three point percentage JJax had when he came from Houston to the Suns. Playing with Nash makes a huge difference. JJ may be a better overall shooter, but the drop in shooting skill may not be as great as the stats might suggest.

JJ was the Suns backup PG for much of the season and did a pretty good job. Pretty good, but he was hardly "great". From reports posted on this board, it looks like Diaw may prove to be better at pushing the ball than JJ and it seems likely he will be much better at getting the ball to Amare. Diaw looks to evolve into a classic "pass first" PG who is big enough to post up small PGs. It is not unreasonable to imagine that Diaw will do as good or better job at running the offense as JJ would have.

The part of JJ's game the Suns will miss the most is his ability to creat his own shot. It was a big plus, but it was not a major part of the Suns offense.

Bottom line? There is a significant drop in talent, but perhaps not as big a drop in expected performance as would be expected for $9 million less in payroll.

In any case, the Suns still have about $3.6 million in trade exemption plus two key draft picks. IMHO, the deal is beginning to look like the Suns will come out of this deal fairly well, but on a delayed basis due to the draft picks.

 

[coloradosun]

George

I don't see it as an significant drop in talent, I see it as a division of talent. The bigger picture is brighter now than at anytime last season. Jones brings the shooting, Diaw brings the ball handling and defense that JJ provided in just one body. Throw Raja Bell into the equation and these three players are equal to what Q and JJ contributed. The benefit of this dispersal is that if a player gets injured the impact of the loss will not be as devasating as was proven in the playoffs last year. If you include the slightest bit of improvement from Barbosa I think that they are way better prepared for a title run than last year.

 

[Yuma]

George

I don't see it as an significant drop in talent, I see it as a division of talent. The bigger picture is brighter now than at anytime last season. Jones brings the shooting, Diaw brings the ball handling and defense that JJ provided in just one body. Throw Raja Bell into the equation and these three players are equal to what Q and JJ contributed. The benefit of this dispersal is that if a player gets injured the impact of the loss will not be as devasating as was proven in the playoffs last year. If you include the slightest bit of improvement from Barbosa I think that they are way better prepared for a title run than last year.

Just to continue your thoughts, the three biggest weaknesses of the Suns last year were rebounding, defense, and bench depth. Noone can accuse management of not trying to address all those weaknesses.

 

[boisesuns]

When trading JJ, there was an obvious concern as to whether the Suns got enough in return. We won't really know until the rest of the trade exemption is used and the draft picks selected. But so far, the results of Diaw and Jones make the deal look better than it appeared a few weeks ago.

For the sake of argument, let's assume the deal was just JJ for Diaw and Jones. JJ is much better than either of these guys and their relative salaries reflect that. However, it is not so clear he has such a massive advantage over the combination of the two.

Both Diaw and Jones are considered to be solid defenders, so the real compaison is on the offensive end. JJ is a much better overall offensive player, but when we break it down into parts his replacements may not be so far off:

1. Three point shooting
2. Running the offense as a backup PG
3. Creating his own shot

Statistically, JJ was a better three point shooter than Jones last season, but he played in an offense that got him lot of open looks. Look at the jump in three point percentage JJax had when he came from Houston to the Suns. Playing with Nash makes a huge difference. JJ may be a better overall shooter, but the drop in shooting skill may not be as great as the stats might suggest.

JJ was the Suns backup PG for much of the season and did a pretty good job. Pretty good, but he was hardly "great". From reports posted on this board, it looks like Diaw may prove to be better at pushing the ball than JJ and it seems likely he will be much better at getting the ball to Amare. Diaw looks to evolve into a classic "pass first" PG who is big enough to post up small PGs. It is not unreasonable to imagine that Diaw will do as good or better job at running the offense as JJ would have.

The part of JJ's game the Suns will miss the most is his ability to creat his own shot. It was a big plus, but it was not a major part of the Suns offense.

Bottom line? There is a significant drop in talent, but perhaps not as big a drop in expected performance as would be expected for $9 million less in payroll.

In any case, the Suns still have about $3.6 million in trade exemption plus two key draft picks. IMHO, the deal is beginning to look like the Suns will come out of this deal fairly well, but on a delayed basis due to the draft picks.

I agree. Our bench depth will play a huge factor this year. This trade is looking great.

 

[elindholm]

Let's be honest. The Suns have taken a step backward with the loss of Johnson. Had someone offered Diaw and Jones in a trade for Johnson at the start of the summer, he would have been laughed off the board. The proposals from the deluded Hawk fans involving Childress were much more promising than what the Suns wound up with, and this board featured dozens of ranting posts about how insane the Hawk fans must be even to suggest such things. Diaw and Jones have both had two years to realize their "potential," and for the most part it hasn't happened. They might develop into reliable role players, but they won't be stars.

On the other hand, the Suns did what they could. Matching a huge contract for an unhappy Johnson and getting trapped with no roster flexibility for the next several years was a gruesome prospect. Rather than lose Johnson "for nothing," the Suns craftily engineered a way to get some decent compensation. All in all, things could be a lot worse.

I think the championship window for the current squad is two years. By 2007-08, Nash, Jackson, and Thomas will all be in steep decline. Fortunately, the Suns will be in a position to make substantial deals then (or, if necessary, during the 2006-07 season), thanks to their assortment of youngish talent and draft picks.

The big question, in my opinion, is whether the Suns as a team can learn how to generate offense without Nash's wizardry. Last year, they didn't move without the ball in the halfcourt offense, and Johnson's mythical ability to create his own shot was rarely in evidence. It was either the fast break or Nash orchestrating pick-and-roll situations. That might continue to work over the next year or two, but it won't work forever. Can the Suns start working now toward their Nash-less future, or will it catch them by surprise and force them to start from scratch?

 

[fordronken]

The future of the team's offense will have to run through Amare. And that should eventually work pretty well.

 

[Chaplin]

Let's be honest. The Suns have taken a step backward with the loss of Johnson. Had someone offered Diaw and Jones in a trade for Johnson at the start of the summer, he would have been laughed off the board.

That is a really simplistic view, because the "trade" isn't just Diaw and Jones for Johnson. It's Diaw, Jones, 2 first round draft picks, and for the sake of arguement, let's say 4.5 million in cash (instead of an exception) for Joe Johnson and Jake Voskuhl. Add to that the fact that JJ said he didn't want to be here, and I'd say that's a pretty good trade.

 

[Yuma]

Let's be honest. The Suns have taken a step backward with the loss of Johnson. Had someone offered Diaw and Jones in a trade for Johnson at the start of the summer, he would have been laughed off the board. The proposals from the deluded Hawk fans involving Childress were much more promising than what the Suns wound up with, and this board featured dozens of ranting posts about how insane the Hawk fans must be even to suggest such things. Diaw and Jones have both had two years to realize their "potential," and for the most part it hasn't happened. They might develop into reliable role players, but they won't be stars.

On the other hand, the Suns did what they could. Matching a huge contract for an unhappy Johnson and getting trapped with no roster flexibility for the next several years was a gruesome prospect. Rather than lose Johnson "for nothing," the Suns craftily engineered a way to get some decent compensation. All in all, things could be a lot worse.

I think the championship window for the current squad is two years. By 2007-08, Nash, Jackson, and Thomas will all be in steep decline. Fortunately, the Suns will be in a position to make substantial deals then (or, if necessary, during the 2006-07 season), thanks to their assortment of youngish talent and draft picks.

The big question, in my opinion, is whether the Suns as a team can learn how to generate offense without Nash's wizardry. Last year, they didn't move without the ball in the halfcourt offense, and Johnson's mythical ability to create his own shot was rarely in evidence. It was either the fast break or Nash orchestrating pick-and-roll situations. That might continue to work over the next year or two, but it won't work forever. Can the Suns start working now toward their Nash-less future, or will it catch them by surprise and force them to start from scratch?

If we don't trade away ALL of our first round picks, I'm guessing we draft a PG at some point. Right now it sounds like Bell will get some time at PG, and Barbosa and Diaw will be experiments for the moment. They keep stressing how good a ball handler Diaw is, without really saying his role on the Suns. I think in training camp he will get to try and run some plays to see what he can do.

Obviously Nash is not teaching Barbosa what he knows. Barbosas blinding speed could be used as a running PG. They need to bring KJ back as an assistant or part time specialist to train Babrbosa how to be a running PG. Maybe KJ can help this guy get the PG mentatlity?

 

[coloradosun]

elindholm

Mid season will clear up how the Magic will utilize Diener, I still see him as the perfect replacement. Their point guard back log of Nelson, Dooling and combo guard Francis will be either continued with or dispersed. If it does become productive Diener could be traded.

 

[elindholm]

It's Diaw, Jones, 2 first round draft picks, and for the sake of arguement, let's say 4.5 million in cash (instead of an exception) for Joe Johnson and Jake Voskuhl.

This board is highly overrating the picks. There's a good chance that they will produce decent players, but unless the Suns get lucky with the Atlanta pick and it turns out to be quite high, they're very unlikely to be stars. The historical evidence is overwhelming.

Add to that the fact that JJ said he didn't want to be here, and I'd say that's a pretty good trade.

Yes, I said the same thing. The Suns turned a bad situation into a pretty good one. But that doesn't mean that they haven't taken a step back with the current roster.

Mid season will clear up how the Magic will utilize Diener, I still see him as the perfect replacement.

Sure, okay, fine. But remember, the Suns have had one of the league's premier PGs for nearly 20 years running now, since Kevin Johnson was acquired. Is Diener really going to extend that legacy? I doubt it -- if he's that good, the Magic won't let him go.

 

[Chaz]

The top five have taken a step backward. Maybe even if you figure top 6 or 7.

Top to bottom (1-12) I think this roster will be better and the bench will actually play.

I don't think they will win 62 games but 55-58 is not unreasonable.


Last season was lightning in a bottle. Very few injuries and a lot of close wins.

Last season would be difficult to duplicate even with the same team returning.

 

[elindholm]

Well put on all counts.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That is a really simplistic view, because the "trade" isn't just Diaw and Jones for Johnson. It's Diaw, Jones, 2 first round draft picks, and for the sake of arguement, let's say 4.5 million in cash (instead of an exception) for Joe Johnson and Jake Voskuhl. Add to that the fact that JJ said he didn't want to be here, and I'd say that's a pretty good trade.

no, it's really:

diaw, jones, 2 first round picks, and whomever we use the remaining exception on

for

jj, voskuhl, and our 2008 2nd rounder

 

[George O'Brien]

I have no doubt that JJ is better than the Jones/Diaw combination. The real question is "how much?" It may not matter because the Suns have some other players to fill in at the SG position, but it is still something we can watch.

IMHO, JJ is NOT going to be an exceptional PG. He'll be pretty good, but I don't think he would have been a long term answer at PG for the Suns. This means the successor to Nash would be an issue whether the Suns made the trade or not.

IF Diaw turns into a solid pass first PG, this trade COULD prove to be a great move. If he doesn't, then the Suns will need to use their remaining TE for a PG and the trade will look less appealing. We'll see.

 

[Yuma]

This board is highly overrating the picks. There's a good chance that they will produce decent players, but unless the Suns get lucky with the Atlanta pick and it turns out to be quite high, they're very unlikely to be stars. The historical evidence is overwhelming.

Well, the Suns did draft Steve Nash, and he turned out to be a pretty good PG!

 

[mribnik]

Well, the Suns did draft Steve Nash, and he turned out to be a pretty good PG!

That's what would be so great if we got Finley. Our starting lineup would have 4 draft picks of the Suns. Nash, Finley, Marion, Amare. I like that idea!

 

[sly fly]

The Suns window of opportunity for a championship will exist as long as Amare is part of this team.

I really believe we're going to see a freakish force of nature that we haven't see in quite some time.

As long as Amare's head and heart are on the same wavelength (in which they seem to be now), the rest of the league should be very frightened.

 

[Joe Mama]

When trading JJ, there was an obvious concern as to whether the Suns got enough in return. We won't really know until the rest of the trade exemption is used and the draft picks selected. But so far, the results of Diaw and Jones make the deal look better than it appeared a few weeks ago.

As Phoenix Suns fans we all expect or at least hope that these young players will perform well for our team. We can hope that the Phoenix Suns have done their homework on both these players. I like both acquisitions. I'm not sure I think James Jones deserved a contract starting at $2.4 million, but I'm not going to complain much about it.

As it stands now the Phoenix Suns have traded:

- Joe Johnson
- Jake Voskuhl
- their own 2008 second-round draft pick

In return they have received:
- James Jones
- Boris Diaw
- a mid 2006 first-round draft pick (I don't believe either the Lakers or the Celtics will do any better than #6 in their respective divisions)
- Atlanta's first-round draft pick in 2007 or 2008 (no way Atlanta makes the playoffs this year)
- a $3.6 million trade exception
- significant savings this season, and especially in a few years

For the sake of argument, let's assume the deal was just JJ for Diaw and Jones. JJ is much better than either of these guys and their relative salaries reflect that. However, it is not so clear he has such a massive advantage over the combination of the two.

Both Diaw and Jones are considered to be solid defenders, so the real compaison is on the offensive end. JJ is a much better overall offensive player, but when we break it down into parts his replacements may not be so far off:

1. Three point shooting
2. Running the offense as a backup PG
3. Creating his own shot

Statistically, JJ was a better three point shooter than Jones last season, but he played in an offense that got him lot of open looks. Look at the jump in three point percentage JJax had when he came from Houston to the Suns. Playing with Nash makes a huge difference. JJ may be a better overall shooter, but the drop in shooting skill may not be as great as the stats might suggest.

JJ was the Suns backup PG for much of the season and did a pretty good job. Pretty good, but he was hardly "great". From reports posted on this board, it looks like Diaw may prove to be better at pushing the ball than JJ and it seems likely he will be much better at getting the ball to Amare. Diaw looks to evolve into a classic "pass first" PG who is big enough to post up small PGs. It is not unreasonable to imagine that Diaw will do as good or better job at running the offense as JJ would have.

The part of JJ's game the Suns will miss the most is his ability to creat his own shot. It was a big plus, but it was not a major part of the Suns offense.

Bottom line? There is a significant drop in talent, but perhaps not as big a drop in expected performance as would be expected for $9 million less in payroll.

The problem with this is that Jones and Diaw actually all are two separate players. If we could combine the good traits into one player it's unlikely the Phoenix Suns would have been able to get him. Both of them have played limited minutes. They each have parts of their game they need to really work on if they are going to make anyone forget about JJ.

Diaw needs to show that he can knock down some shots. I believe if he can get some time and keep his effort at a maximum he'll look pretty good for the Suns. I doubt he'll ever should as well as Joe Johnson, but I think he will look better next season on this team.

Joe Johnson shooting last season was amazing. Yes, he had a lot of open looks, but so do a lot of players who never come close to knocking down 48% of their three-point shots. I'm not expecting James Jones to come close to that. If he just days around 40% three-point shooting and increases his percentage on the rest of his field goals I'll be happy. The same goes for Bell and Michael Finley if he's acquired. I do think Jim Jackson can average around 45% from beyond the arc next year.

In any case, the Suns still have about $3.6 million in trade exemption plus two key draft picks. IMHO, the deal is beginning to look like the Suns will come out of this deal fairly well, but on a delayed basis due to the draft picks.

Patience really is the name of the game when assessing a trade. the Phoenix Suns still have the $3.6 million trade exemption. They have future first-round draft picks. They saved significant money. The money might not look like much now, but at the very least it probably changes whether they will use their mid-level exception next summer. If they make a trade it may change what they are willing to accept in return as far as salary.

Let's be honest. The Suns have taken a step backward with the loss of Johnson. Had someone offered Diaw and Jones in a trade for Johnson at the start of the summer, he would have been laughed off the board. The proposals from the deluded Hawk fans involving Childress were much more promising than what the Suns wound up with, and this board featured dozens of ranting posts about how insane the Hawk fans must be even to suggest such things. Diaw and Jones have both had two years to realize their "potential," and for the most part it hasn't happened. They might develop into reliable role players, but they won't be stars.

I would agree that they've taken a step backward or next season. I would much rather have Joe Johnson than Diaw, Jones, and even Michael Finley for next season. Pass that I don't think you can say whether they've taken a step back or not. We'll have to see how the team pans out, what they do with the exception, who they are able to draft or trade for with those draft picks, etc.

On the other hand, the Suns did what they could. Matching a huge contract for an unhappy Johnson and getting trapped with no roster flexibility for the next several years was a gruesome prospect. Rather than lose Johnson "for nothing," the Suns craftily engineered a way to get some decent compensation. All in all, things could be a lot worse.

I think the championship window for the current squad is two years. By 2007-08, Nash, Jackson, and Thomas will all be in steep decline. Fortunately, the Suns will be in a position to make substantial deals then (or, if necessary, during the 2006-07 season), thanks to their assortment of youngish talent and draft picks.

That's about the way I'm looking at it except I probably would not say that Nash will be in "steep decline" in two years. As long as the Phoenix Suns find someone to back up and maybe even share time with Nash to limit his minutes to about 30 per game I don't think we'll see much of a decline at all.

I would not say the same for Jimmy Jackson and/or Kurt Thomas. Jimmy Jackson is 36, and I believe Thomas is 34. Jackson's contract only runs through next season though. Kurt Thomas has three more seasons including the next one. Even though it's unlikely the Phoenix Suns will have much or any room under the salary cap any time soon they should be in decent financial shape. That will allow them to make trades and use the exceptions.

The big question, in my opinion, is whether the Suns as a team can learn how to generate offense without Nash's wizardry. Last year, they didn't move without the ball in the halfcourt offense, and Johnson's mythical ability to create his own shot was rarely in evidence. It was either the fast break or Nash orchestrating pick-and-roll situations. That might continue to work over the next year or two, but it won't work forever. Can the Suns start working now toward their Nash-less future, or will it catch them by surprise and force them to start from scratch?

Boris Diaw has point guard skills, but I don't see him as a long-term solution at point guard. At some point the Phoenix Suns will have to acquire a promising young point guard to help take some of the pressure off Steve Nash. They'll need someone to take over when Nash is gone. It would be nice if they have the player now, but I think they can get by waiting until next summer or later.

I like the idea of the offense running through Amare Stoudemire as a sort of point center. They have other players who can bring the ball up the court. I was encouraged by Barbosa's pick and roll plays in the summer league game I saw with him. I also think Diaw can do a decent job handling the point for limited minutes. Ultimately they need a truth point guard for the future though.

It will be interesting to see what happens the rest of this summer and during the season. I don't think there's much of a chance that the team will be bad next season unless there are serious injuries. I do think it's entirely possible that they aren't as good as we expect them to be. I think they'll be a better team, but I'm a homer.

Joe

 

[Joe Mama]

Now that was a damn long post.

Joe

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Well, the Suns did draft Steve Nash, and he turned out to be a pretty good PG!

Yeah absolutly, and the franchise is obsessesd with point guards either drafting or acquiring them. In the last 30 years no one has had better PG's with KJ, Kidd, Marbury, and now Nash. Im a little worried about this upcoming season but we have both a 3.9 exception and either Diaw or Barbosa one of whom should at least be effective in spot minutes. After that Colangelo will find some way to acquire say, Shaun Livingston or Sebastian Telfair...

 

[Neo]

This board is highly overrating the picks. There's a good chance that they will produce decent players, but unless the Suns get lucky with the Atlanta pick and it turns out to be quite high, they're very unlikely to be stars. The historical evidence is overwhelming.

Yeah, what kind of looser (sic) are the Suns going to get with what will likely end up being pick 9 in the draft with our terrible luck. History is clearly against us.

http://nbadraft.net/1999.htm

http://nbadraft.net/2002.htm

We might end up with some worthless number 10 pick that has no chance of contributing to the Suns.

http://nbadraft.net/2001.htm

 

[George O'Brien]

I've never seen any statistics about JJ's stats and the team performance when JJ was at PG. There was little doubt that the team did better than when Barbosa was in, but that is not saying a great deal.

I think it is great that Nash is a very good shooter, but I'm not sure that is a requirement to play PG. For the Suns, the bigger issue is the ability to push the ball and to run the pick and roll. I was not impressed with how JJ did either.

Will Diaw do better? I don't know. I haven't seen him play hardly at all. But for this season, he's not replacing Nash or replacing JJ at SF. He's replacing JJ at PG and I think there is a good chance he will do fine.

The longer range problem of getting a PG who can take over for Nash when he can no longer perform at the current level is much more difficult. I'm inclined to invite Jay Williams to camp to find out if he has recovered from his injury and can play. I'd rather have a PG with potential as the 12th man than Padgett.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I think it is great that Nash is a very good shooter, but I'm not sure that is a requirement to play PG. For the Suns, the bigger issue is the ability to push the ball and to run the pick and roll. I was not impressed with how JJ did either.

Being a great shooter is a big part of running a deadly pick and roll. The reason why the Suns had the best P&R last season is because the defense had no option to defend against it.

If they let Amare go single covered he would score 99% of the time. If they left another player to double Amare they would have a 3 rained in on them. And if they left Nash to double, he would simply knock down the shot.

When you have a poor shooter running the pick and roll it is much easier to defend. Speaking about Diaw, I pulled up 50-60 pick and roll clips of his from last season. An interesting thing I noticed is that he knows he is a bad shooter. If his man left him to double down, he would almost always charge the basket. Of course, he control and shot selection in traffic is horrible - so you can figure out how most of them went.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I thought this blurb from an article ranking the top two guards was interesting being this is something we have discussed numerous times. Order went 1)WADE 2) ALLEN 3)KB8 4)Tmac)5)Vince Carter 6)Manu Ginobili 7)Francis 8)Redd 9)RIP and number ten is no other then....



10. Joe Johnson, Atlanta Hawks

Ht./Wt. 6-7, 230
Numbers: 17.1 pts., 5.1 reb., 3.5 ast.
It's hard to figure what will happen to this marvelously talented 24-year-old now that he's going to the Hawks. A natural shooting guard, maybe he becomes a point guard, maybe a small forward. Whatever the case, he's the only other player who has the complete game on both ends of the floor and shooting touch to rival Bryant. The difference is, he may be too nice of a guy.


A pretty flattering a comparison really. Unfortunatly i agree with his assesment and i actually like Joe better than the last 3 players on that list (except maybe RIP) I think he will become a very good player but we (the suns) did what we had to and we actually did make the best out of a rough situation. Overall it will work out better the way things have developed.

 

[elindholm]

If we leave out the usual rejoinder of "so-and-so isn't a shooting guard," I think it's a pretty good list. With most writers usually so ga-ga over championships, I don't quite understand the justification for putting Bryant any lower than #1 -- after all, if Bryant needed O'Neal to flourish, then so does Wade, and Bryant at least has rings to show for it. And there's not a GM anywhere in the league who would take Allen over Bryant; that's just absurd.

Hamilton at 9 seems high to me, but maybe the writer gives him bonus points for being on the league's best defensive team. I would rank Francis lower even if I bought the argument that he's a PG, which I don't.