Karlos Dansby - best LB in the game?

[ASUCHRIS]

While I think Dansby is a clear step below Willis, I do agree that he was and is more deserving of the pro bowl than Wilson. I love A-Dub as leader and a teammate, but as a player I don't see him as a pro bowl talent. Sure, he's excellent against the run for a DB, but his coverage skills are mediocre at best. In retrospect, I'd have rather paid Dansby than Wilson.

 

[Buckybird]

Willis is clearly the best LB in the game right now. I'd put Dansby in the group of elite ILBs with Barnett and Urlacher. I think he's better than Beason, way, way better than Ray Ray is right now, way better than London Fletcher. He's among the Top 5 at his position. That's elite.

I don't know if it's saying that Terrance Newman is as good as Revis. I think it's like saying Charles Woodson or Nmandi Asomugha is as good as Revis. There's a distinction there, but you're talking about the Top 5% at Harvard University.

K9 sometimes people don't see how good a player was until he is gone. We will mis #58 this year!!! And to think Lenon or Washington replaces his production or what he brought to the Redbird defense is really naive. We can only hope that the rook Washington in time is as good or better than Los.

 

[bg7brd]

IMO, Dansby's in an elite M/ILB group with Patrick Willis, Brian Urlacher, and Nick Barnett. He's right that the Cards didn't do a good enough job promoting him. That's why he never went to a pro bowl while Adrian Wilson has been to three. London Fletcher went to the Pro Bowl last year. Does anyone here really think that London Fletcher is a better ILB than Karlos Dansby?

Adrian Wilson took the Cards' media relations rep with him to Honolulu when he was first named to the Pro Bowl. There's a reason for that. On the other hand, you had the mouthpiece of the Cards in Ron Wolfley coming out and saying that Dansby wasn't good enough, wasn't a leader, and was a loafer.

If the Cards want their players to give hometown discounts on extensions, they should try and not badmouth them in the media.

I agree with Wolf. Karlos at times was an awesome linebacker and at other times would completely disappear. I think Karlos and Rolle are more opportunists than playmakers (ie Minnie Mike was the one to make the play in the Green Bay game and the ball just fell in to Los's hands). There's a reason the Cards chose to promote a player like AW. He's the type of player they want. Not an I,me, mine guy. Miami's going to find out that Karlos isn't as good as he professes to be.

 

[football karma]

the case for 'Los:

he fit the Cardinals system perfectly, but the system required a player that is a little bit of an outlier relative to the rest of the NFL: an ILB that could run and cover, do everything well-- really a Will LB who didn't rush the passer all that often.

The rest of the NFL wants ILBs who come down hill, play physical and blow up plays. That is why you get Willis, Ray Lewis, Urlacher, etc mentioned as top ILBs.

OR -- if you are an OLB, they want the big sack numbers pass rusher ala Demarcus Ware.

That just isn't Karlos' game. Excellent athlete, but not a super physical-take on blocks and defeat them kind of player. More likely to drop into coverage rather than rush the passer ( while a good blitzer, not a great one, and not a pass rush type OLB either).

my sense with Karlos is that if he is the best player on your defense, it won't be a very good defense. He is a Robin to somebody else's Batman. It seems like the Dolphins are paying him to be Batman.

He also seems to have some Amare Stoudemire to him -- an exaggerated sense of impact

 

[Russ Smith]

Karlos makes a lot of big plays and that was the question, who's the best big play LB in the NFL.

He's kind of like one of those basketball guys who makes big dunks or spectacular blocks, a new one in that regard would be Javale McGee with the Wizards. He looks spectacular at his best, but he's a very average player. I think Dansby is better than that mind you, but the difference between him and Patrick Willis is Willis not only makes the spectacular plays, he makes all the "routine" ones that sometimes Dansby won't make. Willis will take on the OL in the hole even if he doesn't make the tackle he gets the blocker so someone else can make the tackle, Dansby will try to run around the OL, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and you get a big run as a result.

I see Willis play all the time because of where I live and if there's a better LB in the NFL today I haven't seen him.

 

[kerouac9]

I agree with Wolf. Karlos at times was an awesome linebacker and at other times would completely disappear. I think Karlos and Rolle are more opportunists than playmakers (ie Minnie Mike was the one to make the play in the Green Bay game and the ball just fell in to Los's hands). There's a reason the Cards chose to promote a player like AW. He's the type of player they want. Not an I,me, mine guy. Miami's going to find out that Karlos isn't as good as he professes to be.

This is the reason that Karlos Dansby left. It's not because he didn't want to be a Cardinal. It was clear that the Cardinals didn't want him. People shouldn't be mad at Karlos for leaving.

I'm not sure how Karlos Dansby was an "I, me, mine guy." Why is this okay from Dockett but not from Dansby? Do you think it was an accident that it was Dansby who was the one calling defensive plays and was named a defensive captain?

the case for 'Los:

he fit the Cardinals system perfectly, but the system required a player that is a little bit of an outlier relative to the rest of the NFL: an ILB that could run and cover, do everything well-- really a Will LB who didn't rush the passer all that often.

The rest of the NFL wants ILBs who come down hill, play physical and blow up plays. That is why you get Willis, Ray Lewis, Urlacher, etc mentioned as top ILBs.

OR -- if you are an OLB, they want the big sack numbers pass rusher ala Demarcus Ware.

That just isn't Karlos' game. Excellent athlete, but not a super physical-take on blocks and defeat them kind of player. More likely to drop into coverage rather than rush the passer ( while a good blitzer, not a great one, and not a pass rush type OLB either).

my sense with Karlos is that if he is the best player on your defense, it won't be a very good defense. He is a Robin to somebody else's Batman. It seems like the Dolphins are paying him to be Batman.

He also seems to have some Amare Stoudemire to him -- an exaggerated sense of impact

Karlos Dansby is better than Ray Lewis has been the last three years. There's no mistaking that.

I'll disagree with you about what the NFL wants in their ILBs/MLBs. Look at the new breed of ILB/MLB: Jon Beason, Nick Barnett, guys like that. They're not downhill thumpers, they're guys who can drop back into coverage and play sideline to sideline. That's exactly what Karlos Dansby does, and he has rare size to go along with it.

Karlos Dansby can rush the passer. He has 25.5 career sacks. That's 10 more than Nick Barnett has; 15 more than D.J. Williams. More than three times than Lofa Tatupu. He had four times the number of QB hits and hurries that London Fletcher had. It's just that he wasn't asked to bring the heat because no one else in the defensive front seven could cover, and neither could our nickel back.

Who mentions Ray Lewis as a top ILB anymore? People who are living in 2002? Brian Urlacher played one game last season and had 79 tackles and 0 sacks the year before. I hope on one is mentioning him among the top LBs in the game.

 

[football karma]

I mentioned Lewis only as the archetype of the physical MLB.

It doesn't surprise me that Karlos has more sacks than they guys you mention -- the other guys are playing a true middle. Karlos has been playing this inside/outside hybrid that does a little of either.

Do you really believe that the only reason buys like Barnett or Beason made the probowl and Karlos didnt is because the Cardinals didn't promote him? Antrell Rolle made it -- were the Cardinals promoting him?

 

[kerouac9]

I mentioned Lewis only as the archetype of the physical MLB.

It doesn't surprise me that Karlos has more sacks than they guys you mention -- the other guys are playing a true middle. Karlos has been playing this inside/outside hybrid that does a little of either.

Do you really believe that the only reason buys like Barnett or Beason made the probowl and Karlos didnt is because the Cardinals didn't promote him? Antrell Rolle made it -- were the Cardinals promoting him?

Your archetype doesn't exist anymore--or at least it's not the archetype. The new archetype is Barnett/Beason/Timmons. Willis is the best ILB in the league because he does all the coverage responsibilities and is also physical. He's a bigger Adrian Wilson.

I believe that the reason that backup Derrick Brooks made the Pro Bowl in 2009 and Karlos Dansby didn't is because the Cards didn't want to promote Dansby when they were in contract negotiations with him.

Antrel Rolle made it because he was from The U and because they were on like their 4th NFC free safety at that point. Can you name five NFC free safeties?

Karlos Dansby didn't make the Pro Bowl the last three seasons because the Cards refused to promote him for the position because it would have hurt their negotiating posture on an extension.

 

[football karma]

Your archetype doesn't exist anymore--or at least it's not the archetype. The new archetype is Barnett/Beason/Timmons. Willis is the best ILB in the league because he does all the coverage responsibilities and is also physical. He's a bigger Adrian Wilson.

I believe that the reason that backup Derrick Brooks made the Pro Bowl in 2009 and Karlos Dansby didn't is because the Cards didn't want to promote Dansby when they were in contract negotiations with him.

Antrel Rolle made it because he was from The U and because they were on like their 4th NFC free safety at that point. Can you name five NFC free safeties?

Karlos Dansby didn't make the Pro Bowl the last three seasons because the Cards refused to promote him for the position because it would have hurt their negotiating posture on an extension.

I get the Rolle was an alternate -- and he was also a looming quasi-free agent. Yet he made it as an alternate, Karlos didn't get named as an alternate.

I guess I am having a hard time squaring the assertion that Karlos is exactly the mold of the new ILB, yet the only reason he hasn't even sniffed a pro bowl is because of a lack of Cardinal promotion. It makes it sound like its not about how you play, but how you get promoted. If it were a total fan vote thing, I might buy it -- but its also one third coaches and one third players.

Again -- I think he is a really good football player, but I think he has a far greater opinion of himself than is warranted. It was him who claimed to be the best LB in the game "by far". How does Karlos bridge the gap between the best in the game and not being named even a probowl alternate? Oh yeah -- it was the Cardinals' fault. That's weak.

 

[kerouac9]

I get the Rolle was an alternate -- and he was also a looming quasi-free agent. Yet he made it as an alternate, Karlos didn't get named as an alternate.

I guess I am having a hard time squaring the assertion that Karlos is exactly the mold of the new ILB, yet the only reason he hasn't even sniffed a pro bowl is because of a lack of Cardinal promotion. It makes it sound like its not about how you play, but how you get promoted. If it were a total fan vote thing, I might buy it -- but its also one third coaches and one third players.

Again -- I think he is a really good football player, but I think he has a far greater opinion of himself than is warranted. It was him who claimed to be the best LB in the game "by far". How does Karlos bridge the gap between the best in the game and not being named even a probowl alternate? Oh yeah -- it was the Cardinals' fault. That's weak.

Karlos Dansby was a Pro Bowl alternate in 2008. It's hard to say whether he was ever an alternate, because they don't publish the list. On the other hand, linebackers tend to play in the Pro Bowl when they're nominated.

The biggest problem for Dansby--beside the lack of support at home--tended to be that until last year he was considered/listed as an OLB. That meant that he was being considered not only with the Lance Briggs, Julian Petersons, and Derrick Brookses of the NFC, but also DeMarcus Ware and Greg Ellis, who are 3-4 OLBs and get more sacks than Dansby was allowed to from his inside position.

You and I have no idea whether he was a Pro Bowl alternate the last four years. I remember hearing that he was a first alternate after this year, but I can't confirm that.

The team getting the word out is how coaches and players find out to vote for guys. Do you really think that coaches and players around the league were taking notice of Adrian Wilson's play on an 8-8 Cardinals team in 2007?

I'm not sure that you're not getting way hung up on the Pro Bowl anyway. Was Leonard Davis suddenly way, way better once he was with the Cowboys? Do you really think that Flozell Adams was that good the last three years? Of course not.

 

[Gee!]

I like Dansby. However so does he. If you don't believe your the best you never will be. He certainly is being paid as the best! I liked him here and wish him well, but once they go, to me, they are just gone!

GBR
40

This right here is the reason I believe Dansby believes what he is saying... Just because your one of the or even the highest paid, doesnt mean your the best though..

 

[187]

Who mentions Ray Lewis as a top ILB anymore? People who are living in 2002? Brian Urlacher played one game last season and had 79 tackles and 0 sacks the year before. I hope on one is mentioning him among the top LBs in the game.

Obviously they aren't living in 2002 because Ray only played 5 games in '02 . And I don't know what world you are living in but Lewis was definitely a top ILB last year. Led the AFC in tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF's, 7 PD's, 6.5 stuffs. His production the past 3 years has been up there with the best ILB's. He's not the 160 tackle Ray Lewis anymore, but 121 (in 14 games), 117, and 131 tackles the past 3 year is nothing to scoff at.

I just googled top linebackers and found this:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38435553/ns/sports-nfl/#storyContinued

Clearly Ray is still looked at as a top LB in the NFL.

 

[Duckjake]

Obviously they aren't living in 2002 because Ray only played 5 games in '02 . And I don't know what world you are living in but Lewis was definitely a top ILB last year. Led the AFC in tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FF's, 7 PD's, 6.5 stuffs. His production the past 3 years has been up there with the best ILB's. He's not the 160 tackle Ray Lewis anymore, but 121 (in 14 games), 117, and 131 tackles the past 3 year is nothing to scoff at.

I just googled top linebackers and found this:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38435553/ns/sports-nfl/#storyContinued

Clearly Ray is still looked at as a top LB in the NFL.

That story had Calvin Pace rated ahead of Dansby. So much for that list.

Only two things to say about Dansby:

1: He's better than any LB the Cards have on their roster right now.

2: You have to go to the elite LBs in the NFL to find guys with the combination of sacks, interceptions, and forced fumbles that Dansby has.

As for tackling he is the only Cardinal player ever to lead the NFL in post season tackles.

 

[Shane]

Karlos Dansby didn't make the Pro Bowl the last three seasons because the Cards refused to promote him for the position because it would have hurt their negotiating posture on an extension.

That is complete bunk! Do you have any evidence proving such a rediculous claim?

 

[kerouac9]

That is complete bunk! Do you have any evidence proving such a rediculous claim?

Well, Karlos himself is asserting it. You don't have to look far to see that the Cards didn't strain themselves promoting the excellence of Karlos Dansby. Who are the highest-profile Cardinal players? Kurt Warner. Larry Fitzgerald is one. Anquan before he left. Then maybe Bertrand Berry or Darnell Dockett? Dockett was average until two years ago, but there were Dockett billboards up all over town. Berry had one good season, but he was blowing up on the airwaves every week.

Do you think it's an accident when Adrian Wilson ends up on Bickley and M.J. every couple weeks? Or Dockett goes on Jim Rome is burning? That's the Cards' media office promoting certain players, and not others. All you have to do is look at the run that Karlos Dansby has been getting in Miami (he was the lead in every story that I've read, and there have been numerous articles/blog posts about how outstanding Dansby has been for them) to understand that Dansby could have been a star here, but the Cards chose to treat him as just another player. The difference between Karlos Dansby and Gerald Hayes is profound, but the Cards promoted each as if they were the same talents.

 

[kerouac9]

I want to put this another way, because we've had 40 posts on this topic and you're either going to believe that Dansby was/is a Top 5 ILB/MLB in the NFC, or you don't.

I don't blame the Arizona Cardinals for not making Karlos Dansby a superstar. I'm not sure that he has the leadership or the ability to be a superstar LB in the NFL. Maybe he does--and the scrutiny he'll be under with that big contract in Miami will bring that out in him.

I do blame the Arizona Cardinals for not making Karlos Dansby a star linebacker in the NFL. The playmaking was there, the production was there, the leadership was there. Look around the league the last four months: players bitching about their contracts, Franchise tag designates holding out. Dansby twice took the Franchise tag like a man, showed up to all the offseason work, and missed two games in the last three seasons. That Minnesota game should've been Dansby's springboard to the Pro Bowl. He had two straight games with 10-plus tackles. Last year, he was the best inside linebacker in the NFL not named Patrick Willis.

Instead, the Cards focused on Adrian Wilson, who has been a great career Cardinal, but was not very good last season and had to be given a cheap sack playing DE at the end of the year to "earn" the career milestone the franchise had been waiting 13 games to celebrate.

It seemed to me like the Cards spent a lot of time treating Karlos Dansby like he was just another guy on the roster, and not one of the top playmaking linebackers in the NFL. Easily the equal to Julian Peterson.

 

[Duckjake]

Willis vs Dansby comparison:

Dansby 45 tackles 1 INT 1 FF 1 Fumble returned for a TD 1 NFC Championship 2 NFC West titles

Willis 0 tackles 0 INT 0 FF 0 Fumble recoveries 0 NFC Championships 0 NFC West titles.

Just like the rest of the 4and9ers Willis is a big zero.

 

[az jam]

Just a point regarding the Pro Bowl selection. Currently, players are voted into the Pro Bowl by the coaches, the players themselves, and the fans. Each group's ballots count for one third of the votes. Even if the Cards did a poor job of promoting Dansby, why have other players and coaches neglected to select him???
Not looking for an argument, just thought that this was rather interesting.

 

[kerouac9]

Just a point regarding the Pro Bowl selection. Currently, players are voted into the Pro Bowl by the coaches, the players themselves, and the fans. Each group's ballots count for one third of the votes. Even if the Cards did a poor job of promoting Dansby, why have other players and coaches neglected to select him???
Not looking for an argument, just thought that this was rather interesting.

Because teams even market to other players and coaches around the league.

 

[football karma]

I am just not buying the "promotion" angle to Dansby's lack of probowls.

The fact that Dansby is blaming the Cardinals is hardly proof -- Dansby is hardly a disinterested observer. Its an incredibly self serving statement he made.

Its hardly surprising the Miami is making Dansby the centerpiece of its media efforts: they just made him its highest paid player.

Wilson, Dockett and DRC all made probowls before the national publicity came (and if DRC has had any national publicity of significance, let me know).

 

[Buckybird]

That story had Calvin Pace rated ahead of Dansby. So much for that list.

Only two things to say about Dansby:

1: He's better than any LB the Cards have on their roster right now.

2: You have to go to the elite LBs in the NFL to find guys with the combination of sacks, interceptions, and forced fumbles that Dansby has.

As for tackling he is the only Cardinal player ever to lead the NFL in post season tackles.

well said Duck & I'm with you & K9 100% on him being a great player

 

[Stout]

Well, Karlos himself is asserting it. You don't have to look far to see that the Cards didn't strain themselves promoting the excellence of Karlos Dansby. Who are the highest-profile Cardinal players? Kurt Warner. Larry Fitzgerald is one. Anquan before he left. Then maybe Bertrand Berry or Darnell Dockett? Dockett was average until two years ago, but there were Dockett billboards up all over town. Berry had one good season, but he was blowing up on the airwaves every week.

Do you think it's an accident when Adrian Wilson ends up on Bickley and M.J. every couple weeks? Or Dockett goes on Jim Rome is burning? That's the Cards' media office promoting certain players, and not others. All you have to do is look at the run that Karlos Dansby has been getting in Miami (he was the lead in every story that I've read, and there have been numerous articles/blog posts about how outstanding Dansby has been for them) to understand that Dansby could have been a star here, but the Cards chose to treat him as just another player. The difference between Karlos Dansby and Gerald Hayes is profound, but the Cards promoted each as if they were the same talents.

There's a difference between the players you say we've been promoting and Dansby: They ALWAYS played their hearts out. Dansby played his heart out when he wanted to.

Dockett plays like a beast and always has. Fitz is Fitz, day in and day out. Warner always busted his tail, and usually failed because he was trying too hard. Berry played his heart out, but his talent failed him eventually. Dansby? Man, he could step up big-time...when he wanted to. He could also virtually disappear...when he didn't feel like playing.

 

[kerouac9]

There's a difference between the players you say we've been promoting and Dansby: They ALWAYS played their hearts out. Dansby played his heart out when he wanted to.

Dockett plays like a beast and always has. Fitz is Fitz, day in and day out. Warner always busted his tail, and usually failed because he was trying too hard. Berry played his heart out, but his talent failed him eventually. Dansby? Man, he could step up big-time...when he wanted to. He could also virtually disappear...when he didn't feel like playing.

This is such bull hockey. Which games were you talking about? 1 game last season when he had fewer than 4 tackles; 10 games when he had at least 7. And he didn't have any groan-inducing meltdowns (to my memory) like Wilson did multiple times last year.

From Football Outsiders' new annual:

ex-Cardinals free agent Karlos Dansby, an active
playmaker who is also a vocal leader both on the field and in the clubhouse. Don’t be confused by Dansby’s
poor average of 4.3 yards on run tackles, biased by a handful of plays he made chasing runners way downfield. Dansby had 17 Defeats on running plays, tied for second in the league.

 

[Duckjake]

This is such bull hockey. Which games were you talking about? 1 game last season when he had fewer than 4 tackles; 10 games when he had at least 7. And he didn't have any groan-inducing meltdowns (to my memory) like Wilson did multiple times last year.

It was one of those "urban myths" that just kept getting repeated until many people began to believe it. However, ask someone to point out what particular games or plays Dansby took off or even when he would run around a block and they can't do it. One poster kept insisting that the Cards ran a defense designed to keep blockers off of Dansby yet when you watched the tapes offensive linemen were constantly in his face because our NT could only occupy one blocker.

It is the exact opposite with Adrian Wilson. The holes in his game are conveniently ignored by many of the same people who rail on Dansby.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

While I think Dansby is a clear step below Willis, I do agree that he was and is more deserving of the pro bowl than Wilson. I love A-Dub as leader and a teammate, but as a player I don't see him as a pro bowl talent. Sure, he's excellent against the run for a DB, but his coverage skills are mediocre at best. In retrospect, I'd have rather paid Dansby than Wilson.

Wow.

Did Dansby have a better year last year then Wilson? Probably.

But your last sentence is completely insane. First off, even more so then Dockett, there is no one as underatted to the success of the defense then Wilson. Without Wilson, there is no leader on the field, he moves the secondary around, and basically functions as the MLB of our defense. That was with Los on the team. I think of games where Wilson missed or was hurt and its bloody apparent how critical he is.

Not to mention he loves the franchise, whereas Dansby doesn't give a s--- about anything but himself and his persona. And Yes I would have said this while he was here.

He never cared about his teammates like Wilson and Dockett so obviously do, only started practicing and playing hurt when he had to on a year to year basis with the Franchise Tag, and what all the mavens on the board who love to point to his zone defense percentage will neglect to tell you is that he was out of position time and time again and would make up for it in his athleticism. He wasn't as physical as you want for an ILB either, whether its SILB or WILB.

You know how our defense lacked disicpline in the gaps and would give up leads all the time these past 4 years? I fully believe that had alot to do with Dansby and his laissez faire attitude out there.

What a joke Chris. It's one thing to have an opinion, but to say you would have rather paid this rapper in a football uniform then one of the best players in Cardinals history is just plain crazy. Age difference be damned.

Dansby is playing for himself. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't paying attention.

Personally I am glad he is gone and in 2 years I think Washington will be better for this defense then Dansby ever was (yeah I said it).

You'll see this year how much we miss him. We maybe less talented, but I bet we are more disciplined and more consistent as a defense as a whole.