Keim: Just Win 6 Games

[JeffGollin]

You could have 2 identical seasons with, in one case, firing everyone (because they left you with no hope) and, in the other case, keeping everyone (because they left you a "view to success."

Wilks left us with a window facing a brick wall. The Cards under Kingsbury, at least at this early stage, gives us a window to a reasonable shot at success.

I'm not sure how it came to that (& so quickly) but the club under Wilks was the sorriest Cardinal team I can remember...ever.

 

[kerouac9]

I feel like people continue to underestimate the fluctuation of NFL standing. Teams go from bad to good and good to bad in just one season all the time in the NFL. This is in large part because whether you are considered a good or bad team you are likely playing a lot of close games that come down to a few plays in the 4th quarter.

A good example of this is last year's Cardinals. The team was an atrocious 3-13 and looked horrible on offense and pretty bad on defense. Yet they were only a handful of plays away from a 7-9 or 8-8 record last year. If you believe like I do that there will be improvement on both sides of the ball than you should believe that this years team should be more consistently competitive than last year's team and that should mean that we will be in enough close games to have a shot at 8-8 or maybe even better.

Obviously I am not expecting it as we have a lot of new things coming together, but I would not be shocked by a pretty big turnaround in the win/loss column.

They were also a few plays away from being 1-15. The close games goes both ways. I think we had 1 victory by more than 7 points.

If we go 5-11 but are 2-8 in games decided by 1 score or less, we can find a way to build on that.

 

[Yuma]

In another forum, should James Jones win at least 19 games this season to keep his job? LOL! This is genious. Would the players play harder knowing Keim's job was in jeopardy? Or would they ease up?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

They were also a few plays away from being 1-15. The close games goes both ways. I think we had 1 victory by more than 7 points.

If we go 5-11 but are 2-8 in games decided by 1 score or less, we can find a way to build on that.

I don’t think we are disagreeing here. Most NFL teams play a lot of close games whether they are good or bad. If the Cards have some things go their way more often than not late in games than a major improvement in wins is a real possibility.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Bolded. Therein lies the rub. I don't think there will be improvement on both sides of the ball. For different reasons than last year, but I don't see it. And that's the reason I think our record will still be hot garbage.

We will be without P2 for 6 games, but otherwise the defense will be in a better position going back to the 3-4. The offense last year was about as bad as any offense in the history of the league. Therefor I have a hard time believing they won’t improve at least some on that. Even if the OLine stinks yet again at least now we would have a QB that gives us the chance to essentially make something out of nothing with his mobility.

 

[Yuma]

We will be without P2 for 6 games, but otherwise the defense will be in a better position going back to the 3-4. The offense last year was about as bad as any offense in the history of the league. Therefor I have a hard time believing they won’t improve at least some on that. Even if the OLine stinks yet again at least now we would have a QB that gives us the chance to essentially make something out of nothing with his mobility.

Even QB debate aside, we will have a coach that has some semblance of knowing what a football offense should be. When you have to get rid of your OC that early in the season, that was NOT good!

 

[kerouac9]

I don’t think we are disagreeing here. Most NFL teams play a lot of close games whether they are good or bad. If the Cards have some things go their way more often than not late in games than a major improvement in wins is a real possibility.

I think I already did this analysis earlier. The Cards last year were like 2-4 in games decided by a TD or less. That's 1 game we won by 10 (only 10 when we won the turnover battle 5-0) and 9 games where we were completely blown out.

We were extraordinarily bad last season, and historically bad on offense. This isn't like "well, if the ball just bounces our way!" situation.

Here's the reality: We could continue to suck early in this season, too! This offense might not work very well at this level. It's possible that the defense doesn't have enough horses to bail out an offense that's relying on two rookies and a second-year player who played 12 games his rookie season to make a ton of plays. Maybe we squeak out a 50/50 win at home against the Lions and the next 5 games play out like OU-ALA.

 

[NJCardFan]

We really painted ourselves into a corner here, and I think we have to give Keim and KK two years to sort things out.

Unless we absolutely poo the bed(like going 0-16 and look horrible doing it), Kingsbury will get more than 1 year. The reason why the cord on Wilks was cut so quickly was because Wilks looked completely lost as a head coach. When a coach loses a team around mid-season, the death knell is cast. I felt bad for Wilks because he was put into a no win situation. Keim gave him nothing to work with and hiring McCoy didn't help either then to promote another neophyte to OC really poured gas on the fire. Wilks was given a stable of 3 legged horses. He never had a chance.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

Unless we absolutely **** the bed(like going 0-16 and look horrible doing it), Kingsbury will get more than 1 year. The reason why the cord on Wilks was cut so quickly was because Wilks looked completely lost as a head coach. When a coach loses a team around mid-season, the death knell is cast. I felt bad for Wilks because he was put into a no win situation. Keim gave him nothing to work with and hiring McCoy didn't help either then to promote another neophyte to OC really poured gas on the fire. Wilks was given a stable of 3 legged horses. He never had a chance.

It is not Kingsbury who created this situation. Bidwill and Keim gut the franchise to this point. Bidwill could have gone the safe route and kept Rosen/draft Quinnen Williams. But he didn’t. Now it’s on him and his lapdog Keim. High risk/high reward. I love the potential high reward. But in this division, 6 wins is a double. 8 wins is a home run. We shall see

 

[kerouac9]

Unless we absolutely **** the bed(like going 0-16 and look horrible doing it), Kingsbury will get more than 1 year. The reason why the cord on Wilks was cut so quickly was because Wilks looked completely lost as a head coach. When a coach loses a team around mid-season, the death knell is cast. I felt bad for Wilks because he was put into a no win situation. Keim gave him nothing to work with and hiring McCoy didn't help either then to promote another neophyte to OC really poured gas on the fire. Wilks was given a stable of 3 legged horses. He never had a chance.

Why do you think that Wilks didn't select McCoy? FWIW, I don't think it's Wilks' fault that he got promoted to a job that he wasn't capable of. If you asked me if I wanted to be the head coach of an NFL team right now, I'd say yes too.

NOTHING about Wilks that impressed Michael Bidwill (and Keim?) translated to the fan experience, and it was a threat to the viability of the fan base to run him back out there again.

 

[iLLmatiC]

Wilks wasn't coming back after that season. The cherry on top was his future plans for the team that he presented to ownership/management.

 

[NJCardFan]

Why do you think that Wilks didn't select McCoy? FWIW, I don't think it's Wilks' fault that he got promoted to a job that he wasn't capable of. If you asked me if I wanted to be the head coach of an NFL team right now, I'd say yes too.

NOTHING about Wilks that impressed Michael Bidwill (and Keim?) translated to the fan experience, and it was a threat to the viability of the fan base to run him back out there again.

Oh, I agree but Keim has a say on coaches as well and I also agree that you don't say no when presented with this opportunity. He thought he was ready. He was mistaken.

 

[kerouac9]

Oh, I agree but Keim has a say on coaches as well and I also agree that you don't say no when presented with this opportunity. He thought he was ready. He was mistaken.

I don’t believe that Keim was the trigger man on Wilks. This was from before Wilks failed.

 

[Solar7]

We will be without P2 for 6 games, but otherwise the defense will be in a better position going back to the 3-4. The offense last year was about as bad as any offense in the history of the league. Therefor I have a hard time believing they won’t improve at least some on that. Even if the OLine stinks yet again at least now we would have a QB that gives us the chance to essentially make something out of nothing with his mobility.

I'm not a fan of the "something out of nothing" mentality with mobile QBs. That's a fast way to get the guy that's most important to our team hurt.

We all know I question Kyler, but my size concern with him is tied into his mobility - when he's making something out out of nothing on some play, and he gets hurt, what do his throwing lanes look like out there on a hobbled ankle? What does he play like when that threat of running is gone? Can he stand in the pocket and make plays when he's not able to turn on the jets?

Even if we just roll with the idea that Kyler's going to play pretty well for a rookie, most of the greats haven't been able to change their teams' fortune in their first years without things like a dominant run game or great defense. In the modern era, the only guy I really think did it is Andrew Luck.

Unless we absolutely **** the bed(like going 0-16 and look horrible doing it), Kingsbury will get more than 1 year. The reason why the cord on Wilks was cut so quickly was because Wilks looked completely lost as a head coach. When a coach loses a team around mid-season, the death knell is cast. I felt bad for Wilks because he was put into a no win situation. Keim gave him nothing to work with and hiring McCoy didn't help either then to promote another neophyte to OC really poured gas on the fire. Wilks was given a stable of 3 legged horses. He never had a chance.

Sorry, I never was implying that KK will end this season fired. No organization could afford that kind of financial sink, for one. (Just pulling the numbers off the top of my head, I feel like there's 50-75 million bucks alone of wasted money between coaches and QBs in the past season, for guys who won't play/coach a snap? Bradford/Rosen are already like $40 million, right?) Then the Wilks money is substantial...

It's not KK I'm worried about losing, he'll be here. I know that. But if we let go of Keim, we'd have to look for a GM who also believes in a fired head coach and historically short QB. That's what we're looking at if this experiment doesn't work.

 

[NJCardFan]

It's not KK I'm worried about losing, he'll be here. I know that. But if we let go of Keim, we'd have to look for a GM who also believes in a fired head coach and historically short QB. That's what we're looking at if this experiment doesn't work.

This is a make or break year for Keim. He and BA put all of their eggs in 2015-16 and came close one year and bombed the other. They tread water in 2017 and completely sank last year. Building back up is where the money is made. IMO if the team crashes and burns, Keim is out.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm not a fan of the "something out of nothing" mentality with mobile QBs. That's a fast way to get the guy that's most important to our team hurt.

We all know I question Kyler, but my size concern with him is tied into his mobility - when he's making something out out of nothing on some play, and he gets hurt, what do his throwing lanes look like out there on a hobbled ankle? What does he play like when that threat of running is gone? Can he stand in the pocket and make plays when he's not able to turn on the jets?

Even if we just roll with the idea that Kyler's going to play pretty well for a rookie, most of the greats haven't been able to change their teams' fortune in their first years without things like a dominant run game or great defense. In the modern era, the only guy I really think did it is Andrew Luck.

I'm not suggesting that it should be the game-plan or anything like that. I am simply stating that having an elusive and mobile QB that can extend plays and occasionally turn what should have been a sack into a long pass or long run is going to add a dynamic to an offense that you need with a poor OLine.

As to the getting hurt thing. I feel like we have been down this rabbit hole before, but that is where he needs to do what he showed he can do in college and that's get out of bounds and slide to avoid too many hits. Ultimately he is going to take some hits both in the pocket and while running, but as long as he is not getting himself into situations where he is getting hit far too much because he is playing hero ball than I think he will be just fine.

How many times have we played someone like Russel Wilson and it looked like we had a clean sack on him only for him to wiggle his way out of trouble and either gash us for a big run or a long pass after extending the play? It seems like it happens a lot with guys like him.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Simple, Wilks was that bad of a coach and why the Front Office made a mistake in hiring him but they were smart enough to let him go. Arians is a good coach with a system he was allowed to establish which allotted this team to win eight games while running on fumes which for the initial template Wilks the coaching moron mishandle with his approach... this is a better staff and I expect seven wins

 

[Solar7]

This is a make or break year for Keim. He and BA put all of their eggs in 2015-16 and came close one year and bombed the other. They tread water in 2017 and completely sank last year. Building back up is where the money is made. IMO if the team crashes and burns, Keim is out.

Go back in the chain of my comments in this thread... I've addressed the concerns about Keim. We're backed into a corner as a team when it comes to GM replacement.

I'm not suggesting that it should be the game-plan or anything like that. I am simply stating that having an elusive and mobile QB that can extend plays and occasionally turn what should have been a sack into a long pass or long run is going to add a dynamic to an offense that you need with a poor OLine.

As to the getting hurt thing. I feel like we have been down this rabbit hole before, but that is where he needs to do what he showed he can do in college and that's get out of bounds and slide to avoid too many hits. Ultimately he is going to take some hits both in the pocket and while running, but as long as he is not getting himself into situations where he is getting hit far too much because he is playing hero ball than I think he will be just fine.

How many times have we played someone like Russel Wilson and it looked like we had a clean sack on him only for him to wiggle his way out of trouble and either gash us for a big run or a long pass after extending the play? It seems like it happens a lot with guys like him.

I get it, but Russ is basically the only one doing it and coming out with enough to keep starting. Name me another mobile QB who isn't getting killed in today's NFL. Deshaun Watson? ACL tear. Dak Prescott? Maybe?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Go back in the chain of my comments in this thread... I've addressed the concerns about Keim. We're backed into a corner as a team when it comes to GM replacement.


I get it, but Russ is basically the only one doing it and coming out with enough to keep starting. Name me another mobile QB who isn't getting killed in today's NFL. Deshaun Watson? ACL tear. Dak Prescott? Maybe?

Are you really trying to use a non contact injury that Watson had during practice to prove your point? That didn't have much of anything to do with him being mobile. I mean Carson Palmer tore his ACL a few years back simply trying to step up in the pocket (his 2nd ACL tear as a pocket passer btw). Unless it gets torn because of a brutal hit outside of the pocket than it really isn't a good example to what your talking about. Since then Watson started all 17 games this past season and I don't even know if he was out for a single snap.

Mahomes is a QB that comes to mind as a mobile QB and somewhat similar to how I see Murray using his mobility. That is by using his elusiveness to get out of the pocket and make big plays throwing and running. Wilson and Rodgers are the same way as they can use their ability to avoid sacks and make plays outside of the pocket to extend drives and make big plays. Murray will likely use the run more often than those other guys (except maybe Wilson in his early years), but as long as he is properly reading the situation as to when it is the right time to take off and run he will be just fine.

 

[DVontel]

I get it, but Russ is basically the only one doing it and coming out with enough to keep starting. Name me another mobile QB who isn't getting killed in today's NFL. Deshaun Watson? ACL tear. Dak Prescott? Maybe?

Ironic thing is the the ones that are getting killed “supposedly” have a good size on them too unlike Kyler by the masses.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Go back in the chain of my comments in this thread... I've addressed the concerns about Keim. We're backed into a corner as a team when it comes to GM replacement.


I get it, but Russ is basically the only one doing it and coming out with enough to keep starting. Name me another mobile QB who isn't getting killed in today's NFL. Deshaun Watson? ACL tear. Dak Prescott? Maybe?

I think your handwringing is misplaced.

There are hundreds of guys of qualified to semi-qualified guys that would take this job.

If I was replacing Keim, I'd look at a personnel guy from the Eagles or Chiefs. Both organizations just seem to know talent.

 

[kerouac9]

I think your handwringing is misplaced.

There are hundreds of guys of qualified to semi-qualified guys that would take this job.

If I was replacing Keim, I'd look at a personnel guy from the Eagles or Chiefs. Both organizations just seem to know talent.

You can definitely get a guy to do it, but I don't know if you can get someone better than Keim. You could just as easily end up with the next Ryan Grigson (who came from the Philly Eagles organization).

Keim exercised an extensive amount of power this offseason, selecting or guiding the selection of a coaching staff — not just managing the connection with a head coach.

That being said, I think that Michael Bidwill's desire to have ever-more visibility is going to become an obstacle to recruiting the best people. I think he believes that Adrian Wilson is being groomed to replace Keim if and when the time comes.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You can definitely get a guy to do it, but I don't know if you can get someone better than Keim. You could just as easily end up with the next Ryan Grigson (who came from the Philly Eagles organization).

Keim exercised an extensive amount of power this offseason, selecting or guiding the selection of a coaching staff — not just managing the connection with a head coach.

That being said, I think that Michael Bidwill's desire to have ever-more visibility is going to become an obstacle to recruiting the best people. I think he believes that Adrian Wilson is being groomed to replace Keim if and when the time comes.

Good points.

I agree on Wilson. I'm concerned hes the next candidate, and I havent really seen anything to warrant faith in him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think Keim has some good qualities, which is why the team has had some sustained success under his tenure.

Excellent at IDing pass rushers, safeties, run defenders. Keim time signings have been good for the most part. Horrible at finding OL and TEs.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Go back in the chain of my comments in this thread... I've addressed the concerns about Keim. We're backed into a corner as a team when it comes to GM replacement.


I get it, but Russ is basically the only one doing it and coming out with enough to keep starting. Name me another mobile QB who isn't getting killed in today's NFL. Deshaun Watson? ACL tear. Dak Prescott? Maybe?

The height of a player does not exactly equate to injury but how they fill out and their position. It's very possible that Murray is the least likely player at his position to get hurt if one accounts for his history from high school to college