Kevin Garnett Thread

[pokerface]

You and Chaplin wanted me gone...rememeber?

 

[pokerface]

Not exactly feeling welcome around here

 

[sharkman]

Not exactly feeling welcome around here

You must get that wherever you go.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I purposefully didn't name names.

Deliberately creating a second account is a bannable offense. If I wanted you gone you would be. Instead I banned your second account anonymously and asked you not to do it again.

You are welcome to stay and have whatever opinions you like, as long as you stay within the bounds of the sites rules.

 

[Milgod]

That's total crap. I have watched plenty of MT games. I am not saying he is selfish like a Kobe. What I am saying is that KG demands the ball and needs it to be KG. Amare is the same type of player. They both want the offense to run through them on the block. I don't need Gambo to tell me what I see every time I see both guys play. Are they both going to set up in the post? Are they both going to take turns like school children? I doubt it. I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

I think KG and Amare would get along A LOT better than Marion and Amare. Matrix constantly complains about his role in the tteam and KG always comes across as a guy who will do what it takes to win.

 

[dodie53]

KG is a good passing bigman

 

[Captain America]

I just don't see how getting KG and dumping Marion/Diaw would help the Suns' cap situation, but if they get him I will pee myself.

 

[Milgod]

I just don't see how getting KG and dumping Marion/Diaw would help the Suns' cap situation, but if they get him I will pee myself.

Marion & Diaw are due about $26m and KG about $21m, I think.

 

[sharkman]

Marion & Diaw are due about $26m and KG about $21m, I think.

Marion $16.44
Diaw $9
$25.44 total
- Garnett $22
$3.44 savings (not near enough)

 

[SO91]

KG would be a tremendous addition to the Suns. The hype and marketing revenue he could create would be unbelievable here in the valley, but I'm not convinced it would work. Throughout his entire career Garnett has been the focal point of the offense. Everything has run through him in Minny. I'd even guess it was that way in HS as well. If he's somehow traded to Phx, for Shawn and whatever anybody else has already suggested, he's going to be sharing the paint with Amare. The same Amare that forced Diaw out of the paint, and made him essentially a non-factor this year (Most of that was probably Boris' fault).

Defensively I think he and Amare could compliment each other beautifully, but unfortunately most players care more about their offense than their defense. I don't know if either KG or Amare would move out of the paint and accept the corner/midrange jumpshot for an entire season. We do have a pretty good offensive minded coach, who could make it work, but historically speaking, it hasn't.

PS - It's a bit off-topic, but those are also the reasons I'm not fully sold on drafting Horford.

 

[Crash]

Marion $16.44
Diaw $9
$25.44 total
- Garnett $22
$3.44 savings (not near enough)

Yes but since they are over the cap the true savings to Sarver's pocket is 6.88 mil.

 

[abomb]

what suns' fans see with a trade sub-forum:

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what donald sees with a trade sub-forum:

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Wow. You have outdone youself again.

look, i'm not gonna lie to you and pretend i love football more than basketball. it's just the way it goes.

for the record, i really do like football (i'd say love, but it doesn't apply when compared to the level of emotion that true cards' posters here share). also for the record, i think boldin is a golden god as well.

I'd invite you to a game, but you'll just end up breaking our hearts again.

 

[Chaplin]

You and Chaplin wanted me gone...rememeber?

Huh? Why do you even bring me up when I'm not even in this discussion? And since when did I want you gone? I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but that doesn't mean I want you gone.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Marion $16.44
Diaw $9
$25.44 total
- Garnett $22
$3.44 savings (not near enough)

Our salary has to be within 125% of garnetts I believe + 100,000

KG salary = 22 million * 1.25 = 27.5

So you throw pike in 1.2 million = 26.64

4.64 saved with luxury factored in 9.28 million.

Saving 9.3 million is a pretty big deal..

Minnesota gets a 1.2 million expiring, Young talent in boris diaw, and marion as an all-star. I still think it is not quite worth it for minnesota though. Gotta throw in the 24th to top it off.

Marion
Diaw
Pike
24th

for

KG

I honestly don't know how minnesota could pass that up, and I have no idea how any other team could match that, since teams under the cap have better draft picks, but they would rather draft more young talent and stay very low on the payroll.

Chicago? Too many small salaries they would have to trade practically half their roster.

LA? Don't make me laugh, the stuff they want to package is didly poo unless they want to really hurt themselves putting someone like bynum in a deal with odom and brown. That would kill the lakers depth, let alone the fact that minnesota would also demand a draft pick. The lakers fans have to realise Garnett is NOT heading to that team next season. Maybe the season after but definately NOT this next season.

There are no other teams that can really compete with us, at least without really hurting themselves.

After the trade we have probably a 76 million payroll, so all we need to do is package banks and the 29th during the draft for 2nd rounder or something and we are at 72 million.

Now, if we get the #4+ or not will be decided during the lottery soon.

 

[slinslin]

Diaw is a BYC player, I don't think this works without involving a team under the cap.

 

[hcsilla]

Diaw is a BYC player, I don't think this works without involving a team under the cap.

It might if the salaries are big enough.

 

[Ollie]

To make things clearer, here's Diaw's trade figures :

- poison pill provision until July, his outgoing value is his actual salary of 1.8M, but his incoming value is the average of the salaries of this year and each year of his extension : 7.8M.

- BYC after July, his outgoing trade value will be 50 % of his new salary, 4.5M, and his incoming value will be 9M.

 

[sharkman]

Yes but since they are over the cap the true savings to Sarver's pocket is 6.88 mil.

I think you mean the luxury tax if you are refering to the dollar for dollar penalty. If that's the case...saving $6.88 million isn't going to help...

...keeping the team intact or trading for KG without any other salary dump moves means the payroll will be over $90 million after tax...

...I'd be thrilled if Sarver does it...but after seeing him trade away draft picks that could have been used for a true backup PG for Nash... so they could save the money...

...makes me think that Sarver isn't going to want to pay that especially when the team that just beat us has a payroll of $30 million less.

 

[elindholm]

...makes me think that Sarver isn't going to want to pay that especially when the team that just beat us has a payroll of $30 million less.

You keep harping on this point, but it isn't relevant. Sarver isn't paying the Spurs' bills. Sure, San Antonio has shown that it's possible to win while staying under the luxury tax, but we already knew that. It isn't possible for the Suns now, given their current situation. There's no way they can trim $10-15 million from their payroll and stay elite, aside from the highly improbable scenario of trading Stoudemire for Oden.

When the Suns extended Diaw last summer, it became clear that one of two things was true: either the team would be making a massive salary dump in the near future, or they'd be paying a lot of luxury tax. We still don't know which it's going to be.

 

[Ollie]

If Sarver wouldn't want to pay the luxury tax, he should have tried to lure RC Buford here, because it's pretty obvious that the low cap figure of the Spurs is mainly due to their superior scouting and managerial abilities.

 

[sharkman]

You keep harping on this point, but it isn't relevant.

It's exactly why it is relevant. Our payroll was at $68mil last year...and we traded away our draft picks...for nothing...to save money (even though there were decent backup point guards we could have selected).

Now our salaries will exceed $90 million if we stay put and add the picks. No, Sarver doesn't pay the Spurs salary (your use of sarcasm was brilliant by the way)...but it certainly impacts his decision on team payroll.

If you think that Sarver will go ahead with a 90 million dollar payroll then you are entitled to your opinion and you can proceed with the "trade for KG" discussions.

I'm not as optimistic and choose to speculate on ways to dump salary.

 

[elindholm]

It's exactly why it is relevant. Our payroll was at $68mil last year...and we traded away our draft picks...for nothing...to save money (even though there were decent backup point guards we could have selected).

I agree that trading away the picks was probably a mistake, but I don't think the primary motivation was saving money. The amount of money involved was trivial.

If the Suns' top priority was saving money, they wouldn't have brought in someone like Piatkowski, who everyone knew wasn't going to play and whose veteran minimum is higher than the minimum for a younger player.

If you think that Sarver will go ahead with a 90 million dollar payroll then you are entitled to your opinion and you can proceed with the "trade for KG" discussions.

Trading for Garnett and cutting salary are separate issues. The Suns will have a huge payroll next season unless they undertake a massive salary dump. The players who might conceivably be dumped (Thomas and Banks, I suppose) are different from the players who would be shipped out in a Garnett trade, with the very unlikely exception of Thomas.

Please articulate a scenario in which a specific cost-cutting move would interfere with a trade for Garnett. Throwing your hands up and saying "Sarver won't pay one player $22 million" isn't an answer, because it's the entire team payroll that matters, not the salary of the top player.

If the Suns were obsessed with cutting salary, they could probably ship Marion to a team with cap space and take little or nothing back in return. I can guarantee that that won't happen.

 

[sharkman]

Please articulate a scenario in which a specific cost-cutting move would interfere with a trade for Garnett. Throwing your hands up and saying "Sarver won't pay one player $22 million" isn't an answer, because it's the entire team payroll that matters, not the salary of the top player.

If the Suns were obsessed with cutting salary, they could probably ship Marion to a team with cap space and take little or nothing back in return. I can guarantee that that won't happen.

Trading for Garnett prohibits salary dumping unless:
1. Other core players are involved
2. Low trade value players like Diaw are packaged with draft picks
3. Ignoring other team needs (ie someone who can hit the outside shot in clutch time)

Every Suns team the past 3 years have had flaws:
1st 2004-5. The first had excellent 3 point shooting with Nash, JJ, QRich...and Marion shot the 3 better than most other power forwards. The flaw? No defense.
2nd 2005-6. This team also had excellent 3 point shooting with Nash, Raja, Marion, and Tim Thomas. The flaw? No size and no Amare.
3rd 2006-7. This team had defense and Amare...but no clutch 3 point shooter (it's amazing that the Spurs actually hit more threes than the Suns...and those threes killed us in game 6).

If the goals are:
1. Get salaries below $70 mil
2. Improve size & toughness to shed the "soft" label
3. Add clutch shooter who can play the role of Tim Thomas/QRich
4. Get Nash a true backup
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Trade Barbosa and #29 to Seattle for Luke Ridnour. Seattle is in financial trouble and this saves a mil per year. They platoon Watson (defense) and Ridnour (offense). Barbosa gives a team that needs scoring 18 points per game. Ridnour would be an ideal backup for Nash.

2. Trade Marion and Piatkowski to Memphis for Mike Miller and Stromile Swift. Swift plays the Steve Hunter role...only he's faster and a better free throw shooter.

3. Trade Banks to Atlanta for Lorenzen Wright. Banks is no longer a trade asset...except to a team desperate for a point guard. Wright is an expiring contract.

4. Trade Diaw + #24 to Toronto for Garbajosa and Dixon. Both players are expendable...and Colangelo likes Diaw (he traded for him).

5. Sign Danny Fortson for Detente. If you play the Suns straight up...he stays on the bench. If you play hack-a-Nash...we send Fortson in to play against your star. The League has made it clear how the game is played. After the Horry foul, posters were calling on Burke to go in and foul hard...you need a thug to do that...and Fortson is a cheap shot expert.

6. After he exercises his option...trade KT to Charlotte for $2mil cash. Pure salary dump for Phoenix...Charlotte does it because they only have 6 under contract next year...with 2 player options...and are desperate for a big man to pair with Okafor...plus he's an expiring contract who'll provide a young team veteran leadership. If Sarver is willing to live with KT's salary for one year...keep him, as he comes to play every night.

Nash - Raja - Miller - Swift - Amare
Ridnour - James Jones - Joakim Noah or player of choice - Wright
Garbajosa - Dixon - Fortson

Total team salary= $68 million (using #5 pick salary of $2,548,500)

If you have a scenario with the team payroll below $70million with Garnett...I'm down with it because I love his game.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Nash - Raja - Miller - Swift - Amare
Ridnour - James Jones - pick (if we get the pick or not)
Garbajosa - Dixon - Fortson

Looking at the starting lineup.. That lineup is no better whatsoever then the lineup we currently have, possibly even worse. A little more depth but less talent. No thanks.

We would get killed on rebounds I gaurantee you.

I want to make a run NOW, it is time to get KG and if we can shed a little salary in the process all the better.

*edit: and think about the defensive side of things vs the spurs:

Shotblocker or not swift would be taken to school by duncan, an athletic PF/C instead of a sturdy veteran PF/C in Kurt Thomas who we see struggle with duncan = duncan mvp, amare would get in foul trouble vs duncan.

Mike Miller vs Tony Parker? Why not just forfeit the series now.

 

[elindholm]

3rd 2006-7. This team had defense and Amare...but no clutch 3 point shooter (it's amazing that the Spurs actually hit more threes than the Suns...and those threes killed us in game 6).

The Suns shot 42% from three-point range in the Spurs series. Nash shot 52%, Bell 50%, and Marion 47%. Barbosa was the odd man out at 12%. But the problem wasn't a lack of clutch shooting, it was a lack of opportunities. The Spurs shot only 36% from long range, but they had many more attempts because their offense was better coordinated.

1. Trade Barbosa and #29 to Seattle for Luke Ridnour. Seattle is in financial trouble and this saves a mil per year. They platoon Watson (defense) and Ridnour (offense). Barbosa gives a team that needs scoring 18 points per game. Ridnour would be an ideal backup for Nash.

I have a much lower opinion of Ridnour than you do. He's 26, unathletic, and a poor shooter, and his assist rate isn't much higher than Barbosa's. This is a terrible trade for the Suns.

2. Trade Marion and Piatkowski to Memphis for Mike Miller and Stromile Swift. Swift plays the Steve Hunter role...only he's faster and a better free throw shooter.

You mean, Swift plays the Steven Hunter role of being parked on the bench except in case of emergency. No one denies Swift's talent, but at 27 he has made it abundantly clear that he's never going to take advantage of it. I like Miller, and "when healthy" he would be a great fit, but he's hurt all the time.

3. Trade Banks to Atlanta for Lorenzen Wright. Banks is no longer a trade asset...except to a team desperate for a point guard. Wright is an expiring contract.

Sure, okay. I don't know why Atlanta would want Banks now when they didn't make a move for him last summer, but it's possible. The Suns might have to throw in one of their picks.

4. Trade Diaw to Toronto for Garbajosa and Dixon. Both players are expendable...and Colangelo likes Diaw (he traded for him).

Fails because Diaw is a BYC player (starting this summer).

5. Sign Danny Fortson for Detente. If you play the Suns straight up...he stays on the bench. If you play hack-a-Nash...we send Fortson in to play against your star.

Ridiculous. Delivering a hard foul doesn't require any skill or brawn -- Horry would get beat up by 75% of the league. Sitting a guy on the bench all year just because maybe he'll get a chance to go out and hurt someone in the playoffs is a complete waste of money. Bruisers are valuable only if they also have basketball skills. Fortson had one or two good seasons but is no longer relevant.

6. After he exercises his option...trade KT to Charlotte for $2mil cash. Pure salary dump for Phoenix...Charlotte does it because they only have 6 under contract next year...with 2 player options...and are desperate for a big man to pair with Okafor

Pretty unlikely. It's not like Charlotte is going to have a hard time filling its roster spots, and they can do it a lot more cheaply than $10 million for Thomas (his salary plus the cash you have coming back).

Nash - Raja - Miller - Swift - Amare
Ridnour - James Jones - Joakim Noah or player of choice - Wright
Garbajosa - Dixon - Fortson

This team is much worse than the 2006-07 Suns. Projecting Swift for the starting lineup -- of a team with championship aspirations, no less -- is laughable.

Total team salary= $68 million (using #5 pick salary of $2,548,500)

As a group of cost-cutting measures, your list of suggestions is very impressive. If Sarver decides that he absolutely must get below the magic number, contending be damned, he would have to give your list a careful look.

If you have a scenario with the team payroll below $70million with Garnett...I'm down with it because I love his game.

All the way below $70 million, no, no way. Well, sure, here's one possibility:

Suns trade Marion, Barbosa, and the #5 to Minnesota for Garnett.
Suns trade Stoudemire and Banks to Charlotte for the #8, Primoz Brezec, and Brevin Knight.
Suns trade Thomas, the #29, and cash to Chicago for Sweetney (re-signed for $8 million over 3 years) and P. J. Brown ($5 million over 2 years). (Chicago has the cap space to absorb this.)

Nash/Bell/Diaw/Garnett/Brezec

bench: #8/Jones/Brown/Sweetney/Knight/#24

I haven't done the math but that should put them at about the same salary figure. The team above is as competitive as the one you suggest, probably better.

I'm not sure what the point is. Sarver has to choose between staying elite or shedding salary. If he sheds salary, so be it. If he wants to stay elite, the Suns can target Garnett without making the salary situation worse.