Kevin Tower D'Backs era has been a disaster

[Phrazbit]

The Trumbo deal deserves to be crucified. Its probably the worst transaction of his entire tenure.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Ross got his first hit of the season today and is now batting .050!! And, Cahill continues to dominate out of the pen and dropped his ERA to under 7!!! Progress boyz... Progress...

 

[Lefty]

The worst GM in baseball.

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/4/...cks-mark-trumbo-adam-eaton-tyler-skaggs-trade

 

[Lefty]

The Trumbo deal is looking worse every day. Skaggs had another good outing.

 

[Phrazbit]

I saw some dope writer from Boston say that there is no way KT should be fired, Tower's made the best moves in baseball this off-season and, based on injuries, can blame "bad luck" on the teams ineptitude.

I wanted to light myself on fire.

The only player worth a turd that we're missing is Corbin, and even if Corbin were healthy, and pitching incredibly that would only give us a record of like 12-18.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I saw some dope writer from Boston say that there is no way KT should be fired, Tower's made the best moves in baseball this off-season and, based on injuries, can blame "bad luck" on the teams ineptitude.

I wanted to light myself on fire.

The only player worth a turd that we're missing is Corbin, and even if Corbin were healthy, and pitching incredibly that would only give us a record of like 12-18.

Hard to know what the impact on the team psyche would've been if Corbin were producing more W's... Many times winning produces more winning.
But your point is valid. This team is so bad that even Corbin most likely wouldn't make much of a difference...


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[aznando]

I haven't really been around the last few years to comment on much DBacks stuff, but i'm back and I'll probably stay back. I'd love to get back on board and root on the home team. I have a lot of friends who still have season tix at Chase, but it's hard to watch right now. I have some personal issues with KT that go back to his San Diego days, so i'm not the most objective person in the world when it comes to him, but he has done more harm to this franchise than I imagine anyone could. What he's done to the farm system makes you want to cry. It's like he picked up a Baseball America a few years ago saw all of those Top players and decided to trade them all for magic beans. You can, never, ever have enough pitching. Especially young talented pitching. I know there were reasons why some guys are gone and I sort of understand trying to get a big bat to protect Goldy, but I feel KT has severely undervauled some of the farm guys. This organization is a mess. The Farm System is bad, the major league team is really bad. The direction of the team is in question. I know D. Hall is a really nice guy, and he really likes KT and Gibby, but at some point you gotta blow this thing completely up. I remember when we were light years ahead of our Expansion brother the Rays. Now they are the model for who we need to be. We need smart people in the front office. Not just smart baseball people, but smart people from a variety of backgrounds. I appreciate having a scouting mentality, I value scouting a good deal, but you also need people who have numbers backgrounds. The Dbacks from what I understand are one of the few teams who still only have like one token Saber-metrics guy. Most franchises, the A's, Indians, Cubs, Rays, Red Sox, Astros of the world have not just a numbers guy but a "Baseball Research Department." These are departments full of really smart dudes who utilize numbers, Pitch F/X, and a variety of other methods to contribute to the decision makers. When you are talking about risk involving millions and millions of dollars you need the right information to make a quality decision and do your best to reduce risk. I'm ranting on a little bit, but the bottom line is this thing IMO needs to get gutted. Build around what young pitching you have left and Goldy and try to get back to competing the way the Rays compete with the Red Sox and Yankees, because the Dodgers and Giants aren't going anywhere and neither is their budget.

Aznando

 

[Lefty]

I haven't really been around the last few years to comment on much DBacks stuff, but i'm back and I'll probably stay back. I'd love to get back on board and root on the home team. I have a lot of friends who still have season tix at Chase, but it's hard to watch right now. I have some personal issues with KT that go back to his San Diego days, so i'm not the most objective person in the world when it comes to him, but he has done more harm to this franchise than I imagine anyone could. What he's done to the farm system makes you want to cry. It's like he picked up a Baseball America a few years ago saw all of those Top players and decided to trade them all for magic beans. You can, never, ever have enough pitching. Especially young talented pitching. I know there were reasons why some guys are gone and I sort of understand trying to get a big bat to protect Goldy, but I feel KT has severely undervauled some of the farm guys. This organization is a mess. The Farm System is bad, the major league team is really bad. The direction of the team is in question. I know D. Hall is a really nice guy, and he really likes KT and Gibby, but at some point you gotta blow this thing completely up. I remember when we were light years ahead of our Expansion brother the Rays. Now they are the model for who we need to be. We need smart people in the front office. Not just smart baseball people, but smart people from a variety of backgrounds. I appreciate having a scouting mentality, I value scouting a good deal, but you also need people who have numbers backgrounds. The Dbacks from what I understand are one of the few teams who still only have like one token Saber-metrics guy. Most franchises, the A's, Indians, Cubs, Rays, Red Sox, Astros of the world have not just a numbers guy but a "Baseball Research Department." These are departments full of really smart dudes who utilize numbers, Pitch F/X, and a variety of other methods to contribute to the decision makers. When you are talking about risk involving millions and millions of dollars you need the right information to make a quality decision and do your best to reduce risk. I'm ranting on a little bit, but the bottom line is this thing IMO needs to get gutted. Build around what young pitching you have left and Goldy and try to get back to competing the way the Rays compete with the Red Sox and Yankees, because the Dodgers and Giants aren't going anywhere and neither is their budget.

Aznando

Welcome back! Couldn't agree with you more. When Theo Epstein became the GM for the Red Sox, he changed their entire philosophy on evaluating players and now Boston has three World Series titles. I also agree with you in that they need to blow it up and start over. It's going to take a while to repair the damage Towers has done in the last two years to this organization.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The product on the field is a mess. KT is responsible - nobody else. But, all the whining about how he decimated our farm system is ridiculous... Unless you guys can show how his draft picks have been significantly worse than all other teams, how exactly had he decimated the farm system??


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[manningtomanningham]

I'm new to posting on the forum but I do come on here often to read other's views. Here's my thoughts on the Diamondbacks situation for what it's worth:

The way I look at it is the farm system is that it isn't completely decimated. However, I do think Towers took a nice dent out of our potential future pitching with getting rid of Skaggs, Bauer, Parker for what appears to be pennies on the dollar - It makes me sick to think about it like it does most of you. Then there's Ian Kennedy who is on a roll right now and Max Scherzer. Yes it is pretty depressing thinking about what could have been. But rather than dwell on that, what's done is done and I think the D Backs can be good in the future they stop trading away their young pitching prospects.

With our "current" young pitchers, this is what I see in the future. Some of the young pitchers are doing pretty well this year, though they still have some time before they will be brought up.

#1 starter - Patrick Corbin (If he can return to form following TJ surgery - a big if)
#2 starter - Archie Bradley
#3 starter - Wade Miley
#4, #5 - ???

Guys in our farm system to keep an eye on for #4,5 starters:
Braden Shipley - (South Bend) 2.76 ERA
Aaron Blair - (South Bend) 2.56 ERA
Andrew Chafin - (Mobile) 1.21 ERA
Chase Anderson (Mobile) 0.69 ERA

I would like to know - what other starting pitcher "potential" do we have in our farm system? Thoughts anyone?

 

[82CardsGrad]

Skaggs and Parker are in the bigs and would've been in the bigs if they were still with the team... Bauer is a project and it remains to be seen if he'll ever mature enough to be a legit big leaguer.
So, looking at the system today and the players that aren't with our team any longer but would've still be down on the farm if they were still with us, how has Towers decimated our system??


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[BC867]

So, looking at the system today and the players that aren't with our team any longer but would've still be down on the farm if they were still with us, how has Towers decimated our system??

By trading them, and for short term players who have been disappointments.

 

[82CardsGrad]

By trading them, and for short term players who have been disappointments.

Right... which is my point. Who, of the one's he's traded, has served to decimate our system?? What am I missing??

 

[aznando]

Maybe decimated is a little strong, but lets take a look at what we had just 2 years ago.

2012 Dbacks Prospects ranked anywhere from #5-#9 in the league depending on who you believe.
Top 10:
1. Trever Bauer RHP-Now with the Indians at AAA 3-0 1.40 ERA came up for a start against the Padres and really threw well.
2. Tyler Skaggs LHP-Angels SP, 2-0 3.34 ERA .235 BABIP
3. Archie Bradley RHP-Dbacks #1 Prospect AAA
4. Andrew Chafin LHP-Dbacks AA Looking good thus far.
5. Patrick Corbin LHP- Dbacks #1 Starter Currently DL TJ Surgery
6. AJ Pollock OF-Dbacks .250 3 HR .755 OPS
7. Matt Davison 3B- White Sox AAA showing good Power almost made the team.
8. Bryan Shaw-RHP Indians Bullpen Setup guy could be their Closer 1.98 ERA
9. Adam Eaton OF White Sox .281, .750OPS
10. David Holmberg LHP Reds AAA 0-3 getting shelled

Two years later all but a couple are in the Bigs and I would say most are still very exciting prospects. Bauer, Skaggs, Bradley, Corbin...man you never know how that will turn out, but it could have been historic.

Lets take a look at 2014. We are ranked about 15 overall.
1. Archi Bradley- See Above just waiting for his shot
2. Braden Shipley-Low A
3. Chris Owings- Won the job at SS over Didi another good young SS and is currently hitting .313 with 4SB
4. Aaron Blair Low A
5. Jose Martinez-Extended Spring Training
6. Stryker Trahan-A top Pick, Low A .196 2HR
7. Matt Stites AA 3 Saves
8. Brandon Drury Hi-A .292 OPS .887
9. Jake Lamb AA .247 OPS .837
10. Sergio Alcantara- Extended Spring Training

Who on the 2014 Prospect list are you super excited about? Obviously Bradley, I like Owings, feel good about Trahan, but he's changed positions, so we shall see...anyone else? Go back and look at 2012. Maybe KT hasn't "Decimated" the farm system, but he sure has diminished it significantly. We have one guy in AAA and a guy who won the job who's in the Majors who are Top 100 guys the rest are all in Low-A or lower. That's not what you want to see when It's May and you haven't reached double digit wins yet.

Aznando

 

[Phrazbit]

A few years ago we had more trade equity in our farm system than just about any team in the league. Now, with the exception of Bradley, that equity is just about used up, and the parts we have in return have little to no trade value.

Bauer, Skaggs, Davidson, Shaw, Holmberg, Parker, Eaton.

A boat load of talent that included multiple top prospects. In exchange we got:

Cahill, Trumbo, Didi and Reed.

Seriously... thats... it... from all those prospects. A below average DH, a horrible pitcher, a defensive short stop and a mediocre closer.

Its not just a loss in talent but a loss in opportunity.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Maybe decimated is a little strong, but lets take a look at what we had just 2 years ago.

2012 Dbacks Prospects ranked anywhere from #5-#9 in the league depending on who you believe.
Top 10:
1. Trever Bauer RHP-Now with the Indians at AAA 3-0 1.40 ERA came up for a start against the Padres and really threw well.
2. Tyler Skaggs LHP-Angels SP, 2-0 3.34 ERA .235 BABIP
3. Archie Bradley RHP-Dbacks #1 Prospect AAA
4. Andrew Chafin LHP-Dbacks AA Looking good thus far.
5. Patrick Corbin LHP- Dbacks #1 Starter Currently DL TJ Surgery
6. AJ Pollock OF-Dbacks .250 3 HR .755 OPS
7. Matt Davison 3B- White Sox AAA showing good Power almost made the team.
8. Bryan Shaw-RHP Indians Bullpen Setup guy could be their Closer 1.98 ERA
9. Adam Eaton OF White Sox .281, .750OPS
10. David Holmberg LHP Reds AAA 0-3 getting shelled

Two years later all but a couple are in the Bigs and I would say most are still very exciting prospects. Bauer, Skaggs, Bradley, Corbin...man you never know how that will turn out, but it could have been historic.

Lets take a look at 2014. We are ranked about 15 overall.
1. Archi Bradley- See Above just waiting for his shot
2. Braden Shipley-Low A
3. Chris Owings- Won the job at SS over Didi another good young SS and is currently hitting .313 with 4SB
4. Aaron Blair Low A
5. Jose Martinez-Extended Spring Training
6. Stryker Trahan-A top Pick, Low A .196 2HR
7. Matt Stites AA 3 Saves
8. Brandon Drury Hi-A .292 OPS .887
9. Jake Lamb AA .247 OPS .837
10. Sergio Alcantara- Extended Spring Training

Who on the 2014 Prospect list are you super excited about? Obviously Bradley, I like Owings, feel good about Trahan, but he's changed positions, so we shall see...anyone else? Go back and look at 2012. Maybe KT hasn't "Decimated" the farm system, but he sure has diminished it significantly. We have one guy in AAA and a guy who won the job who's in the Majors who are Top 100 guys the rest are all in Low-A or lower. That's not what you want to see when It's May and you haven't reached double digit wins yet.

Aznando

Still don't see how he has "diminished it significantly"...

 

[82CardsGrad]

A few years ago we had more trade equity in our farm system than just about any team in the league. Now, with the exception of Bradley, that equity is just about used up, and the parts we have in return have little to no trade value.

Bauer, Skaggs, Davidson, Shaw, Holmberg, Parker, Eaton.

A boat load of talent that included multiple top prospects. In exchange we got:

Cahill, Trumbo, Didi and Reed.

Seriously... thats... it... from all those prospects. A below average DH, a horrible pitcher, a defensive short stop and a mediocre closer.

Its not just a loss in talent but a loss in opportunity.

If you want to suggest that he traded some potentially top tier players for crapolo... I would agree with that. But I would certianly not place Holmberg and Shaw in that category... And Bauer has a TON to prove, as do Skaggs and Eaton.
I fail to see how this is an example of KT decimating our system...

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not sure what else you want. We had a ton of potential talent in our system, hugely regarded prospects, almost all of them are gone. Yes, our farm system is still in existence, they have not been literally liquidated, but in comparison to the last few years the level of talent is paltry.

I also forgot Ryan Cook, tossed into the Cahill trade... now 26, an all-star and one of the better relievers in the AL.

As for the guys have a "ton to prove", all prospects do, but it does not change the value those guys had to the Diamondbacks, value that was NOT capitalized on. KT had a ton of value in his farm system, now that value is almost entirely gone with basically no return. THAT is how he decimated the system.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I'm not sure what else you want. We had a ton of potential talent in our system, hugely regarded prospects, almost all of them are gone. Yes, our farm system is still in existence, they have not been literally liquidated, but in comparison to the last few years the level of talent is paltry.

I also forgot Ryan Cook, tossed into the Cahill trade... now 26, an all-star and one of the better relievers in the AL.

As for the guys have a "ton to prove", all prospects do, but it does not change the value those guys had to the Diamondbacks, value that was NOT capitalized on. KT had a ton of value in his farm system, now that value is almost entirely gone with basically no return. THAT is how he decimated the system.

Cook is a legit example. And as I said, if you want to make the argument that "potential top talent" was traded for squat, I can see that point as well.
However, as of May 2, 2014, aside from Cook and Parker, and possibly Skaggs, I don't believe our "system" is significantly worse off than it would've been had KT not made any of his moves.
I guess what I'm suggesting is that tales of the Dbacks having some time of world-beating system that KT came in and destroyed, are greatly exaggerated... If Bauer and Eaton go on to become studs, the way I look at this, that still wouldn't prove your point about the system itself, as they both would've become studs on the Dbacks and thereby, leaving the system. They have still left the system - just for other teams...

Probably not making myself totally clear... need it to be Happy Hour!

 

[Phrazbit]

I think the disconnect is between that guys like Eaton and Skaggs would not count as part of our farm system because they'd be in the bigs. But I see the difference as we had those guys in our control, those were farm assets and they're gone for basically nothing. Yes, if they were still in AZ they'd be in the bigs but they'd still be pre-arbitration young guys on our team.

And I think you're still undervaluing a lot of these guys. Not only that they're better than you're giving them credit for (like Eaton) but the legit value prospects along those lines hold, even if its yet to be realized (like Bauer).

 

[aznando]

Still don't see how he has "diminished it significantly"...

We went from a top 5 ranked farm system to a 15th or lower. We went from having 5 top 100 prospects including 3 starting pitchers in AA or higher to having 2 prospects. We went through mostly our Top 10 guys being in AA and AAA to having mostly Low-A and Rookie League dudes who are 3-4 years away at best. I'm not sure how you don't see this as diminished.

Aznando

 

[BC867]

A boat load of talent that included multiple top prospects. In exchange we got:

Cahill, Trumbo, Didi and Reed.

Seriously... thats... it... from all those prospects. A below average DH, a horrible pitcher, a defensive short stop and a mediocre closer.

Its not just a loss in talent but a loss in opportunity.

As I have posted, I agree with most of what you say. But, just for the record, Addison Reed as our closer has saved 7 out of 8 opportunities so far.

 

[Lefty]

From what I have read, don't expect Gibson or Towers to be fired this year. If any changes are to occur, it would probably happen after the season.

 

[BC867]

From what I have read, don't expect Gibson or Towers to be fired this year. If any changes are to occur, it would probably happen after the season.

Another Arizona sports team. Another tank mode.

Happily, talk of the Suns tanking never materialized under Jeff Hornacek.

Unfortunately, the D'backs tanking is not by design under Towers and Gibson.

Although, it was the design of Kevin Towers and the mediocre skills of Gibson, although not the plan.

 

[Lefty]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/1...amondbacks-general-manager-unsure-future-team