Kings @ Suns 1-8-18

[elindholm]

Ayton has a better net rating than Holmes for instance.

Including in the post-Ariza era? Ariza was such a disaster for the team that I'm inclined to throw all of those numbers out. In particular, the cohesion of the second unit (with Oubre) seems a lot stronger now.

Which site do you use? I'd like to be able to think about the stats on my own.

 

[Hoop Head]

The whole having Ayton setting picks 25 feet from the basket thing is beyond stupid... particularly because it seems to be a feature rather than a bug.

If that is all Kokoskov's "scheme," then I agree with some of the posters on here that Igor is failing. It is idiotic.

What bothers me most about it is the comment Igor made about a month ago about how we'd see Ayton start taking 3's once he was able to start dunking 10 times a game. Implying that once he mastered the inside game that he would open things up for him on the outside. The problem with that is Igor's offense doesn't put him in position to get 10 dunks a game. The only way that would happen is if he gets 10 offensive rebounds somehow and as a rookie it's unfair to ask for that or expect it, I don't care how well he's played so far. I would feel better if he never made that remark because it made it seem like we'd see Ayton's role expand on offense but it hasn't and there isn't really a good reason why it hasn't. I know his defense needs work but if he can hit it from 23 feet out then let him shoot that because then those picks will be more effective because defenders will need to cover him for fear of him pulling up and draining a 3.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Did anyone notice how much better Warren's effort on D was when he started scoring in the 3rd quarter? Oubre and Holmes were key to that defensive run but Warren more than held his own and was downright pesky throughout that period. I tried to trade him at the start of that quarter, I was so tired of watching him hang his head and just go through the motions but that 3rd quarter Warren reminded me why I used to like him so much.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What bothers me most about it is the comment Igor made about a month ago about how we'd see Ayton start taking 3's once he was able to start dunking 10 times a game. Implying that once he mastered the inside game that he would open things up for him on the outside. The problem with that is Igor's offense doesn't put him in position to get 10 dunks a game. The only way that would happen is if he gets 10 offensive rebounds somehow and as a rookie it's unfair to ask for that or expect it, I don't care how well he's played so far. I would feel better if he never made that remark because it made it seem like we'd see Ayton's role expand on offense but it hasn't and there isn't really a good reason why it hasn't. I know his defense needs work but if he can hit it from 23 feet out then let him shoot that because then those picks will be more effective because defenders will need to cover him for fear of him pulling up and draining a 3.

Wow, I took that the other way completely. Not saying I'm right but I thought his point was more like "quit bugging me about Ayton shooting 3's, it's not going to happen until he starts playing strong down low".

 

[Mainstreet]

Did anyone notice how much better Warren's effort on D was when he started scoring in the 3rd quarter? Oubre and Holmes were key to that defensive run but Warren more than held his own and was downright pesky throughout that period. I tried to trade him at the start of that quarter, I was so tired of watching him hang his head and just go through the motions but that 3rd quarter Warren reminded me why I used to like him so much.

I remember when you traded Warren. LOL

It's amazing the range of emotions we go through watching a game. I guess this is why live game action is so exciting.

 

[Raindog]

What bothers me most about it is the comment Igor made about a month ago about how we'd see Ayton start taking 3's once he was able to start dunking 10 times a game. Implying that once he mastered the inside game that he would open things up for him on the outside. The problem with that is Igor's offense doesn't put him in position to get 10 dunks a game. The only way that would happen is if he gets 10 offensive rebounds somehow and as a rookie it's unfair to ask for that or expect it, I don't care how well he's played so far. I would feel better if he never made that remark because it made it seem like we'd see Ayton's role expand on offense but it hasn't and there isn't really a good reason why it hasn't. I know his defense needs work but if he can hit it from 23 feet out then let him shoot that because then those picks will be more effective because defenders will need to cover him for fear of him pulling up and draining a 3.

My main concern about Igor is that he might be trying to make the players fit his "system" rather than adjusting his system to the personnel he has. So far, it looks that way, and that doesn't bode well for the future if he prove to be inflexible in his approach.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns need to utilize his skills. I suspect if Daniels were on another team he would be a solid role player.

I haven't understood why he's been glued to the bench this season. He was put in a bad position last season, forced to fill the Booker role as a starter and he just isn't that player. But he's a solid player off the bench especially when he heats up.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

What bothers me most about it is the comment Igor made about a month ago about how we'd see Ayton start taking 3's once he was able to start dunking 10 times a game. Implying that once he mastered the inside game that he would open things up for him on the outside. The problem with that is Igor's offense doesn't put him in position to get 10 dunks a game. The only way that would happen is if he gets 10 offensive rebounds somehow and as a rookie it's unfair to ask for that or expect it, I don't care how well he's played so far. I would feel better if he never made that remark because it made it seem like we'd see Ayton's role expand on offense but it hasn't and there isn't really a good reason why it hasn't. I know his defense needs work but if he can hit it from 23 feet out then let him shoot that because then those picks will be more effective because defenders will need to cover him for fear of him pulling up and draining a 3.

I think that has a lot to do with Ayton though. Igor has mentioned multiple times now that Ayton has to get more aggressive. I believe early in the set he is required to be out on the perimeter to set screens, but after that he tends to just kind of stand around and float around the free throw line area as opposed to getting post position or rolling hard to the rim.

 

[AzStevenCal]

My main concern about Igor is that he might be trying to make the players fit his "system" rather than adjusting his system to the personnel he has. So far, it looks that way, and that doesn't bode well for the future if he prove to be inflexible in his approach.

I can understand concern about this but we're talking about players that don't really have fully evolved games yet. If I were coach I think I'd be trying to get them to play the way I want them to also - just like Pop did for a season with Aldridge before he finally admitted defeat and changed the plan to fit LaMarcus. But Aldridge was already a mature player and apparently set in his ways, we're talking about players that can hopefully still be molded into what you want/need them to be.

 

[Raindog]

I can understand concern about this but we're talking about players that don't really have fully evolved games yet. If I were coach I think I'd be trying to get them to play the way I want them to also - just like Pop did for a season with Aldridge before he finally admitted defeat and changed the plan to fit LaMarcus. But Aldridge was already a mature player and apparently set in his ways, we're talking about players that can hopefully still be molded into what you want/need them to be.

I'm not writing Igor off yet... it's still early. But we'll see as the rest of this (and the next) season unfolds.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I just finished watching the game for the second time, once with the Phoenix feed and once with the Sacramento group. I think Grant Napear and Doug Christie are probably my favorite announcing pair in the NBA right now. Christie reminds me of Eddie Johnson his first year with the mic, before he started making everything about himself. And Napear is far superior to anyone we've had, maybe ever, Al McCoy excepted. And yeah, I know almost everyone here still loves EJ.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I loved Grant Napear's comment after WCS missed both free throws near the end of the game. As Ayton went to the line following his strong rebound, Napear said "If the Suns make one free throw this is going to go down as the worst loss of the year...playing without their best player and that 21 point lead". We may not be playing for a postseason berth but it's still fun to break a few hearts along the way.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think that has a lot to do with Ayton though. Igor has mentioned multiple times now that Ayton has to get more aggressive. I believe early in the set he is required to be out on the perimeter to set screens, but after that he tends to just kind of stand around and float around the free throw line area as opposed to getting post position or rolling hard to the rim.

I'm sure it's also intended to create opportunities for a pick and roll or a pick and pop but far too often Ayton looks clueless about what to do once he sets the screen.

 

[taz02]

One of the problems with Ayton setting the high screen is he is often out of position for the rebound. Ayton at the high screen would be ok move once in awhile but it's the staple of the offense.

Maybe someone with more basketball knowledge than me can explain why it wouldn't be better to have TJ or Oubre set the pick and have Ayton in position for a rebound or pass near the basket.

I agree that Igor has put a system in place and is trying to mold his players into it. The only way this is a good plan is if the offense is designed for your star player/players and you are molding the roll players into the system.

I do not think the system Igor is running is good for Booker or Ayton.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Including in the post-Ariza era? Ariza was such a disaster for the team that I'm inclined to throw all of those numbers out. In particular, the cohesion of the second unit (with Oubre) seems a lot stronger now.

Which site do you use? I'd like to be able to think about the stats on my own.

Agree 100% (I agree with you a ton lately.)

I might just do it by hand. It's only like 10 games right?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

God I am nerdy. What would be a welcome lunch break from my job of doing analytics? Why lets spend that hour doing some analytics!

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

I'm sure it's also intended to create opportunities for a pick and roll or a pick and pop but far too often Ayton looks clueless about what to do once he sets the screen.

And when he does roll he is only rewarded about 25% of the time (of situations where it is warranted). Crawford tries the hardest with this but throws a few terrible passes per game. Booker throws a couple. Melton, Okobo, and Warren do not even attempt it. My son is tired of me "yelling" at Ayton to roll. And when he finally does it, he is tired of me "yelling" at the ball handler to make the correct play....

All of this doesn't help and is part of the growing pains of Ayton and the offense as a whole. The majority of current offenses, if not all of them, are searching for switches or picks at the top of the key with the big men in a lot of their sets. Even the low-post-dominant scorers are doing it. I just think that it has to be constantly drilled to Ayton to roll, and for the ball handler to read the situation and make the proper play. I mean, other teams are doing it constantly to them, so it's not like they don't have an example right in front of them every game. And pass it with confidence - and high...

 

[SactownSunsFan]

I loved Grant Napear's comment after WCS missed both free throws near the end of the game. As Ayton went to the line following his strong rebound, Napear said "If the Suns make one free throw this is going to go down as the worst loss of the year...playing without their best player and that 21 point lead". We may not be playing for a postseason berth but it's still fun to break a few hearts along the way.

Always nice when the Suns beat the Kings. Maybe I'll call into Grant's show today and rub it in his face until he gets angry and starts yelling and calling me an idiot, which he's prone to do to the callers that piss him off, lol.

 

[WildBB]

Come on. It was a great win, sure, but to imply Booker isn’t our best player is nonsense. Not sure why it becomes open season on Booker when we get a RARE victory without him.

Well the team is forced to become a team. Too much standing and watching and apathy when he"s out there often enough to warrant concern. Also the D could be considered better overall, with Bridges and Jackson or Oubre starting, along with their being more apt to be more aggressive on both ends.


With that said it's more coach Ko's problem to integrate the best starting lineup. I'd like to see him put in Holmes as a starter and hope for MUCH better starts.

 

[Chaplin]

Well the team is forced to become a team. Too much standing and watching and apathy when he"s out there often enough to warrant concern. Also the D could be considered better overall, with Bridges and Jackson or Oubre starting, along with their being more apt to be more aggressive on both ends.

I'm not arguing that it was a great team win. But the question is, "Is Devin Booker the Phoenix Suns best player?" And the answer is yes, without question. Are we better without him playing? Last night, we were pretty good. But is that BECAUSE he wasn't playing or DESPITE the fact that he wasn't playing?

And don't forget, we're not exactly undefeated when he doesn't play.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I can understand concern about this but we're talking about players that don't really have fully evolved games yet. If I were coach I think I'd be trying to get them to play the way I want them to also - just like Pop did for a season with Aldridge before he finally admitted defeat and changed the plan to fit LaMarcus. But Aldridge was already a mature player and apparently set in his ways, we're talking about players that can hopefully still be molded into what you want/need them to be.

He has said that he wants to put his players in the best possible situation to succeed. I wonder if the players themselves do not see what is best for them. Working with players this young requires more molding than accommodating.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Okay I will toss the +/ - in another thread because I think it is interesting

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not arguing that it was a great team win. But the question is, "Is Devin Booker the Phoenix Suns best player?" And the answer is yes, without question. Are we better without him playing? Last night, we were pretty good. But is that BECAUSE he wasn't playing or DESPITE the fact that he wasn't playing?

And don't forget, we're not exactly undefeated when he doesn't play.

I hate to see Booker slow it down and he does take a shot or make a pass every now and then that makes me cringe. And when he's playing though injury as he has been in most games this season, his shot is often off, he's easy to block and he has trouble hanging onto the ball against pressure. All that said, he's still our best player. And if he and Ayton were being judged the same way that Watson, Holmes and Oubre are judged, there would be far less criticism of either guy. But some people are holding both of them to higher standards and ignoring the fact that they are still works in progress.

 

[1Sun]

I watched Ayton, play after play on offense tonight, stationed 23 feet from the basket for most of the 24-second shot clock. Then as he headed toward the basket, a crowd of defenders would get in his way.

Ask yourselves. Is D'Andre Ayton stationed at the 3-point line to set picks for most of the shot clock by his design? Or is it the Coach's game plan?

I think the answer is obvious. #1 pick or not, he is a 20-year old rookie doing what he is instructed to do. He is the victim of a rookie NBA Head Coach trying to make his trademark Euro-ball. It is clearly not working.

Who is going to tell him? The meddling owner who has no technical basketball experience? The interim partial-General Manager who was elevated because he is Sarver's yes-man?

It is right there for the world to see. The next time you watch a game, watch Ayton as soon as the Suns bring up the ball. Stationed at the 3-point line to set picks. What a waste of the #1 pick.

You might ask why Holmes doesn't face the same predicament. I would think it is because he has four years of NBA experience. And Sarver can't steamroll him like he does his rookie GM and rookie Head Coach. Which rolls downhill to young players like Ayton.

These are points that have been mentioned in the past. Tonight I concentrated on it throughout the time Ayton was on the floor. Play after play. So predictable.

This remains my biggest problem with Igor in terms of game plan, and my biggest problem with him overall along with his communication deficiencies.

 

[1Sun]

My main concern about Igor is that he might be trying to make the players fit his "system" rather than adjusting his system to the personnel he has. So far, it looks that way, and that doesn't bode well for the future if he prove to be inflexible in his approach.

Particularly where his "system" isn't an NBA system at all.