Kingsbury's Air Raid

[kerouac9]

5-3 = “on fire” ??? With losses to the lions and panthers?

ironically I think kylers ability to run has masked a lot of kliffs and other players deficiencies. Wasn’t a mistake that we couldn’t do crap when his rushing disappeared. See? Not so difficult to come up with a reason why keim and kliff can fail but the team can have some success.

To be fair, we were 5-2 at one point and we'd beaten Washington, the Jets, and the Giants decisively. A lot of people at the time were saying that we were coming off the softest part of our schedule and actually would need another win or two — that turns out to be correct.

Kyler's running ability masked a lot of problems with the offense, including his inability to progress much as a passer in his second season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

5-3 = “on fire” ??? With losses to the lions and panthers?

ironically I think kylers ability to run has masked a lot of kliffs and other players deficiencies. Wasn’t a mistake that we couldn’t do crap when his rushing disappeared. See? Not so difficult to come up with a reason why keim and kliff can fail but the team can have some success.

they were 6-3. with wins against the Seahawks and the Bills, both very good teams at the time they played them. It was after that they collapsed.

and I think the offense was on fire because Kyler was running wild and defenses hadn't adjusted. When they did, we became painfully mediocre on offense.

 

[kerouac9]

they were 6-3. with wins against the Seahawks and the Bills, both very good teams at the time they played them. It was after that they collapsed.

and I think the offense was on fire because Kyler was running wild and defenses hadn't adjusted. When they did, we became painfully mediocre on offense.

I think that the season turned on the loss to Miami, who turned out to be pretty good but Kyler got shown up by Tua, who turns out to maybe not be that good?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think that the season turned on the loss to Miami, who turned out to be pretty good but Kyler got shown up by Tua, who turns out to maybe not be that good?

you think? We were coming off major mojo beating the Bills to go 6-3 and Kyler was like a video game in the second half even before the Hail Mary. That loss to the Dolphins definitely was the difference in us getting to the playoffs though. And of course, we made Tua look great. That's what Cardinals defenses routinely do to rookies who otherwise do next to nothing all season.

I expect Trevor Lawrence to go nuts against us in Game 3 and people will be saying "He's arrived!" only to stink for the next four games after.

 

[DVontel]

I think that the season turned on the loss to Miami, who turned out to be pretty good but Kyler got shown up by Tua, who turns out to maybe not be that good?

A Vance Joseph-coached defense really let Tua have a career day. Arguably his only career day, too. With his WR2 gone for a half & half of their coaches not available. Hilarious.

 

[Krangodnzr]

5-3 = “on fire” ??? With losses to the lions and panthers?

ironically I think kylers ability to run has masked a lot of kliffs and other players deficiencies. Wasn’t a mistake that we couldn’t do crap when his rushing disappeared. See? Not so difficult to come up with a reason why keim and kliff can fail but the team can have some success.

As your broseph said, 6-3 and the Cardinals were getting constant hype from the national media.

As to your other point, Kyler wasn't the only reason the team was playing well.

The defense went from a bottom three unit to a middle of the pack unit. That doesn't happen if the GM is total trash.

And even with Kyler's ability to run, the team is probably hurt more by his inability to complete intermediate level passes. He's pretty much a dumpster fire at midrange passing.

I just don't buy this fake narrative that Keim & Kingsbury totally suck. It's divorced from the reality that both are pretty much 8-8 at their job.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Keim's record as GM: 65-61-2

Mediocre, but not HORRIBLE.

I bet his record as GM is the best in Cardinals history. That's sad.

 

[kerouac9]

Keim's record as GM: 65-61-2

Mediocre, but not HORRIBLE.

I bet his record as GM is the best in Cardinals history. That's sad.

On another thread, I think Cheese did a comparison and Keim's record is actually WORSE than Rod Graves' was after 8 years, and the Cards under Graves had gone to the Super Bowl!

I say this every offseason when people are ready to fire Keim for this or that forseeable atrocity: Keim is probably about league-average as a GM. You'd prefer to have someone who gives you a clear competitive advantage, but as long as he's not making big decisions, he's going to get you in the direction you want to go.

The problem is that after Arians left, there was no one to elevate the franchise. If you have one of a great QB, great HC, and great GM, you're going to be competitive (the Packers under Rodgers and McCarthy). If you have two, you're going to compete for a Super Bowl every year (Pats with Brady and Belicheck, Baltimore under Newsome and Harbaugh). Keim is just going to be the worst part of that triangle.

 

[Cheesebeef]

On another thread, I think Cheese did a comparison and Keim's record is actually WORSE than Rod Graves' was after 8 years, and the Cards under Graves had gone to the Super Bowl!

I say this every offseason when people are ready to fire Keim for this or that forseeable atrocity: Keim is probably about league-average as a GM. You'd prefer to have someone who gives you a clear competitive advantage, but as long as he's not making big decisions, he's going to get you in the direction you want to go.

The problem is that after Arians left, there was no one to elevate the franchise. If you have one of a great QB, great HC, and great GM, you're going to be competitive. If you have two, you're going to compete for a Super Bowl every year. Keim is just going to be the worst part of that triangle.

this (although, I didn't say Graves had a better record. Just that we more NFC East Titles, four times as many playoff wins and a Conference Title. My point was if we could achieve all of that with an awful GM, the mediocre GM who followed who's had less post-season success isn't irreplaceable like some were making it out to be).

 

[football karma]

I think that the season turned on the loss to Miami, who turned out to be pretty good but Kyler got shown up by Tua, who turns out to maybe not be that good?

that started the stretch of making mediocre QBs look like all-pros:

Tua had his best game in that one
Jalen Hurts had his best game vs AZ
CJ Beathard had his best game vs AZ
Wofford (by default) had his best game

the Cards went 1-3 vs that group

 

[kerouac9]

that started the stretch of making mediocre QBs look like all-pros:

Tua had his best game in that one
Jalen Hurts had his best game vs AZ
CJ Beathard had his best game vs AZ
Wofford (by default) had his best game

the Cards went 1-3 vs that group

To be fair, there was a MONTH between the Tua game and the stretch where we played Hurts, Beathard, and Wofford. In between we held Jared Allen to a 77.3 passer rating and Cam Newton to a 23.6 passer rating.

 

[Krangodnzr]

On another thread, I think Cheese did a comparison and Keim's record is actually WORSE than Rod Graves' was after 8 years, and the Cards under Graves had gone to the Super Bowl!

I say this every offseason when people are ready to fire Keim for this or that forseeable atrocity: Keim is probably about league-average as a GM. You'd prefer to have someone who gives you a clear competitive advantage, but as long as he's not making big decisions, he's going to get you in the direction you want to go.

The problem is that after Arians left, there was no one to elevate the franchise. If you have one of a great QB, great HC, and great GM, you're going to be competitive (the Packers under Rodgers and McCarthy). If you have two, you're going to compete for a Super Bowl every year (Pats with Brady and Belicheck, Baltimore under Newsome and Harbaugh). Keim is just going to be the worst part of that triangle.

this (although, I didn't say Graves had a better record. Just that we more NFC East Titles, four times as many playoff wins and a Conference Title. My point was if we could achieve all of that with an awful GM, the mediocre GM who followed who's had less post-season success isn't irreplaceable like some were making it out to be).

Naw, Graves had less success. He pretty much presided over TWO winning seasons. And both of those winning seasons came when the NFC West was probably about as bad as it ever was.

The Super Bowl and NFC Championship were definitely meaningful, but if we are looking at head to head records, Keim is ahead of Graves.

The Packers are interesting. I don't think McCarthy has really ever been a "good" head coach. I would argue that it was a combo of Rodgers and Ted Thompson, with McCarthy being pretty much a league average coach.

Keim's rope will shorten if this season is disastrous. I think he should be fired if the team is 8-9 or below. 9-8 would depend on the circumstances, but I think that should be considered poor as well. I've said this elsewhere, but what I fear is going to happen is that the Cardinals will go 10-7 and will keep Keim, only to watch the team have a losing record in 2022 since so many of the players he has brought in are older and on short contracts.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Naw, Graves had less success. He pretty much presided over TWO winning seasons. And both of those winning seasons came when the NFC West was probably about as bad as it ever was.

And Keim has presided over THREE winning seasons to TWO. And 3 LESS playoff wins. The difference isn't that stark is the point and that this team wouldn't be screwed if Keim was gone, as some have stated.

 

[cardncubfan]

Eh you stayed “You don't have the number 6 offense with a lousy HC”

then you wanted to blame losses on defense and special teams. Just tying up loose strings.

To be clear Ouchie I am saying you don't have the number 6 offense with a lousy head coach & I am blaming our losses on defense & special teams.


edit: I see what you are getting at. No wonder Stout liked your post. Wording. I said HC & defense & special teams are part of his responsibilities. I should have said his offense isn't lousy. He does play too conservative at times but they do move the ball.

 

[kerouac9]

The Packers are interesting. I don't think McCarthy has really ever been a "good" head coach. I would argue that it was a combo of Rodgers and Ted Thompson, with McCarthy being pretty much a league average coach.

I agree! McCarthy is trash and Thompson was no great shakes, either. But Rodgers was still there to keep them afloat. The Packers had fewer than 10 wins ONCE between 2009 and 2016. That's WILD.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I agree! McCarthy is trash and Thompson was no great shakes, either. But Rodgers was still there to keep them afloat. The Packers had fewer than 10 wins ONCE between 2009 and 2016. That's WILD.

That's what a truly great player can do for a franchise. On flipside, Rodgers only has one Super Bowl win, where he probably should have 3 or 4 if he had a good coach and GM around him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

And Keim has presided over THREE winning seasons to TWO. And 3 LESS playoff wins. The difference isn't that stark is the point and that this team wouldn't be screwed if Keim was gone, as some have stated.

Graves has a 52-76 record.

I think the Cardinals probably win more playoff games if it wasn't for injuries to Palmer. The Carolina loss was 100% on horrible QB play.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Everything said was everything people have been saying since the season.

Predictable, unimaginative offense that makes it very easy for a pro defense to play against it.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Everything said was everything people have been saying since the season.

Predictable, unimaginative offense that makes it very easy for a pro defense to play against it.

And yet they were 6th in yardage and 14th in points.

 

[Solar7]

You say Keim sucks and Kliff sucks and yet the team was on fire through the first half of the season and squandered away a playoff position.

Both of those statements CAN'T be fully true. There is much more nuance to it.

I think Keim is largely decent in free agency and mostly robs teams in trades. His draft record is uneven; he has had some notable hits and quite a few misses.

Kingsbury has been good at times, and the numbers largely demonstrate that the Cardinals have a good offense. But he has had some notable gaffes. What we don't know is how much the issues they have at times are related to talent (Keim), inexperience (Kyler), or coaching (Kliff).

My thing is I think Kyler is the reason the passing game is lagging. I think the mental aspect of the game and his shortcomings at throwing intermediate routes really hurts this team. Teams figured out to play seven man fronts with all the linebackers and safeties clogging the shallow routes and force Kyler to either beat them on intermediate throws. The deep shots werent there because teams often brought pressure.

It's hard to scheme against that; Kyler has to be able to take what the defense is giving him and make them pay for playing those schemes against him.

Well, again, I made some concessions for Keim and Kliff and was reasonably nice about it. Trades, eventual OC success... those are nice.

Keim's draft record has fallen off a cliff. And it's tough to account for what that is. It's not always fair for people to trash his personal life, but did alcohol have an effect? Does he need another personnel guy next to him like he had in Jason Licht? Did Arians' football acumen and success in coaching players up add to the perceived early success, but abject failure now? I don't know what it is, but it's there.

I don't disagree with the rest of your points all that much, but Kliff has failed to show he can be a winning coach, and he's not seemingly learning on the job. I just don't see it turning around.

 

[TaylorSwift]

And yet they were 6th in yardage and 14th in points.

I think a lot of that was to due to the off schedule plays

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I would be curious to see the stats on whether the better production with a TE was with TEs acting as a receiver or as added protection for Murray so he had more time to throw. If it's the latter than we simply need to utilize a TE that can block, but for obvious reasons it would be nice to have one that could do everything well.

It would be nice to have one that can block & catch yes. Problem is, our best blocking TE is always hurt. The coaches said when they signed Dan Arnold that he could block also but he was always split out wide more times than not. I know most people on here wanna see Larry retire but I've said it many times, he would make a good TE now at his age. He can most definitely block & we know he can catch the football so why not use him as a TE? That's more or less how KK used him in 2020 anyway. Of course his salary can't be outrageous if he were to agree to resigning as a TE.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I think a receiver should go in motion on just about every play.

I think we'll see that in 2021 with Rondale Moore. Still don't understand why Hopkins wasn't put in motion more in 2020? People complained about him only being on the left side & I was one of them. Our offense clicked when he was put on the right side & when he ran those quick slants. My thing is this. It's hard enough to cover him one on one just lined up on the outside so why not put him in motion? Imagine a DB trying to cover him when he already has a running start in motion?

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Well, again, I made some concessions for Keim and Kliff and was reasonably nice about it. Trades, eventual OC success... those are nice.

Keim's draft record has fallen off a cliff. And it's tough to account for what that is. It's not always fair for people to trash his personal life, but did alcohol have an effect? Does he need another personnel guy next to him like he had in Jason Licht? Did Arians' football acumen and success in coaching players up add to the perceived early success, but abject failure now? I don't know what it is, but it's there.

I don't disagree with the rest of your points all that much, but Kliff has failed to show he can be a winning coach, and he's not seemingly learning on the job. I just don't see it turning around.

I hope he studies tape of every play he used last season & totally makes the changes needed to correct them? Especially the plays he likes to call that don't work lol. Like, those east/west bubble screens that gain nothing. All though I do believe he'll keep using them with Rondale Moore who gains a whole lot of YAC. At the college level anyway. Yet to do it at the NFL level. The blocking out front has to be better on those also. All this said, I'll believe it when I see it on KK changing the way he calls plays. I can hope though.

 

[Arz101]

Kliff reading this thread like

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