Knicks coming apart

[Bufalay]

You're seriously calling Felton an All-Star? Seriously?

Seems possible. Right now I think he's been the third best PG in the east behind Rose and Rondo. Not sure if that makes him an All-Star, but he's close.

 

[jagu]

Seems possible. Right now I think he's been the third best PG in the east behind Rose and Rondo. Not sure if that makes him an All-Star, but he's close.

Considering the only .500+ team the Knicks have beaten in the last 3 weeks are the Hornets (-David West), I think statistics can be easily skewed when your out there killing the Eastern and Western conference trash.

 

[jbeecham]

Considering the only .500+ team the Knicks have beaten in the last 3 weeks are the Hornets (-David West), I think statistics can be easily skewed when your out there killing the Eastern and Western conference trash.

The Hornets have also lost 6 of their last 8 so they haven't been the team that started out so hot and surprised everyone. The only other team NY beat that had a winning record was the Bulls and they're 10-8 right now... still wins are wins so I give NY credit for beating the bad teams that they have so far. They've also lost to some bad teams... Philly, Minnesota, Houston, Milwaukee, GS.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's because they're playing with no PG at all. Dragic is, at best, a combo guard who is probably better suited as a poor man's Ginobili rather than as a creator. So yes, once Nash is gone, the Suns will need a competent PG. No argument there.

That's why I keep mentioning the Suns need another PG in addition to another big man. Thanks for bringing attention to the matter. I do like Dragic but depending on him to be a primary PG in the future is risky.

In regards to the Knicks, it doesn't take much to be a playoff team in the East and I have no problem with Amare playing well. I don't see how Felton is a first team All-Star.

 

[Bufalay]

Considering the only .500+ team the Knicks have beaten in the last 3 weeks are the Hornets (-David West), I think statistics can be easily skewed when your out there killing the Eastern and Western conference trash.

Maybe, but my statement was conditional. elindholm said that "we'll talk" if Felton continues on his current pace up to the All-Star break. And I said that if this were the case, Felton would be an All-Star. Seems like if he were averaging 18 pts 8asts 4rbs and 2stls while shooting 46% at the break, he would have to be considered.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Considering the only .500+ team the Knicks have beaten in the last 3 weeks are the Hornets (-David West), I think statistics can be easily skewed when your out there killing the Eastern and Western conference trash.

I don't think anyone considers them anything special. They are a mediocre team that MIGHT get lucky and make the playoffs in the East. They'd be no better than 9th or 10th in the West (at their best). But, they have a little hope for the future and I'm not sure we can say the same thing. And I mean that literally - I'm not sure.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

They'd be no better than 9th or 10th in the West (at their best). But, they have a little hope for the future and I'm not sure we can say the same thing. And I mean that literally - I'm not sure.

The Knicks' advantage is that their hope for the future comes partly from their current roster. It's only partly, but it's something. For the Suns, the hope for the future has to come from outside -- a trade or a free agent signing. If the Suns' future were limited to the present roster minus Nash, Richardson, and Hill, that would be pretty bleak, but fortunately it isn't.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Knicks' advantage is that their hope for the future comes partly from their current roster. It's only partly, but it's something. For the Suns, the hope for the future has to come from outside -- a trade or a free agent signing. If the Suns' future were limited to the present roster minus Nash, Richardson, and Hill, that would be pretty bleak, but fortunately it isn't.

I agree, but that's why I'm not sure about our future. I look at the Hedo deal and I just cringe. I know we're all on the outside looking in but I just can't believe that an average GM wouldn't have netted us a pick in that deal. Since Sarver bought this team, I've been against just about every deal we've put together and after decades of supporting almost anything JC did, that's hard for me to swallow.

I think Hedo was the wrong fit for us but even if he were a perfect fit, Toronto should have been easy pickings in that deal. They needed to move him and I really doubt there was any market for him with that contract. There had to have been basketball people in the organization that saw that just as clearly as the average fan did and yet we made the deal anyway. Even if Babby pushed for that deal, IMO, it falls solely on Sarver.

I have a little hope that we've put together a management team that will no longer allow the likes of the Hedo deal (or the Kurt Thomas trade) but until we see what they make out of our moveable pieces it's anybody's guess how far we'll fall once Nash is gone. And Sarver remains the constant throughout this string of questionable decisions (a few good decisions amidst a bunch of bad ones).

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Knicks can't outright sign Carmelo without giving up most of their good young players. The league just doesn't work like that. And by the time they will have rebuilt enough to provide a supporting cast, Amare's knees will be gone and it will all be for nothing.

you keep saying this, but Jason Kidd's knees aren't gone and he had the procedure a couple years before Amare and he's still playing at the same level he was back in the day. Not to mention, Amare seems to be getting stronger and stronger as he gets further away from the surgery.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Knicks can't outright sign Carmelo without giving up most of their good young players.

they only have 42 million bucks in contracts so they probably can just sign him outright or move one contract to do so without having to gut anything.

 

[elindholm]

I think Hedo was the wrong fit for us but even if he were a perfect fit, Toronto should have been easy pickings in that deal. They needed to move him and I really doubt there was any market for him with that contract.

There was no market for Barbosa's contract either. It was a negative-for-negative trade. Do you think the Raptors are happy with what they got out of it?

 

[JCSunsfan]

There was no market for Barbosa's contract either. It was a negative-for-negative trade. Do you think the Raptors are happy with what they got out of it?

They were thrilled. Raptors boards were rejoicing. Barbs contract was decent

 

[elindholm]

They were thrilled. Raptors boards were rejoicing. Barbs contract was decent

A lot of people on Suns boards were thrilled too. The question was, what do the Raptors think of Barbosa and his contract now?

 

[Cheesebeef]

A lot of people on Suns boards were thrilled too. The question was, what do the Raptors think of Barbosa and his contract now?

i think they're happy that it's only two years at 7 per versus 3 years at 12 per.

 

[AzStevenCal]

i think they're happy that it's only two years at 7 per versus 3 years at 12 per.

I'm sure they're thrilled to have Leandro's contract over Hedo's but I thought Hedo still had 4 years left (counting this one) and that Barbosa just had one more season after this one. Either way, one contract is a waste of money and they other contract is a salary cap noose.

Steve

 

[Bufalay]

A lot of people on Suns boards were thrilled too.

This can't be true.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm sure they're thrilled to have Leandro's contract over Hedo's but I thought Hedo still had 4 years left (counting this one) and that Barbosa just had one more season after this one. Either way, one contract is a waste of money and they other contract is a salary cap noose.

Steve

oh god... is that is true? If so, Elindholm trying to argue anything about those fans being unhappy having Barbs right now is pretty ridiculous.

 

[AzStevenCal]

oh god... is that is true? If so, Elindholm trying to argue anything about those fans being unhappy having Barbs right now is pretty ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure about Hedo's but less sure about Barbosa's. I'm confident that someone will let us know shortly if I'm wrong.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

The difference in contract lengths is one year, plus whatever Turkoglu's buyout is for 2013-14. We know that he "took less guaranteed money" in order to facilitate the trade to the Suns, but I haven't heard any figure.

But in any case, calling Turkoglu's $11.4 million in 2012-13 a "salary cap noose" is awfully extreme. He probably won't be worth that contract, but if he's playing at an MLE level (which seems reasonably likely), then he'll be only about $5 million overpaid. Among the ranks of the league's terrible contracts, it hardly registers.

I think a lot of people are exaggerating the Turkoglu problem in order to have something to complain about. Drop his salary by a few million a year, and he'd be just another ho-hum rotation guy. It's a bad contract, but let's try to have some perspective.

 

[Covert Rain]

On this topic...it appears the Knicks are on a little mini "resurgence" trip as well like the Suns and Amare is tearing it up once again.

During this stretch Amare has averaged 29 PPG, 10.3 Rebounds and has scored 25+ Points 7 times.

I think it's safe to say that all those that said Amare would be nothing without Nash (because Nash wouldn't be there to spoon feed him)....can now be put to rest.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

They have plenty of flexibility. If Nash is gone and Richardson isn't retained, the Suns' payroll is only in the mid-$30Ms.

Sans Nash, and to a lesser extent Richardson, who the hell would want to come here? Nash has been the major driving force behind people wanting to play here, and he's widely considered the best teammate in the NBA. Even with Nash, the Suns haven't acquired any major free agents, and building through free agency towards a championship is a perilous journey at best. You mock what NY has to offer, but at least they have Stat as a selling point. What do we have, Hedo? Channing Frye? Rolo?

And heck, we might consider Frye downright appealing.

Ha, that's only because our front line is the most pitiful in the NBA, and one of the worst in recent memory. I'll be interested to see how he does post Nash. Will he go back to being an end of the rotation on a mediocre team?

I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't see the Knicks' situation as any better. Would you really want to sit through their "growing pains" a couple of years from now while Stoudemire is on the shelf for another season?

I think you're being rather assumptive here. There is definitely a chance that Stat will miss time due to his knee, but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion. Microfracture isn't the career killer that it used to be, and there are several players post microfracture that haven't had any major issues.

Again, I'm not saying the Knicks current roster and furture prospects are any great shakes. I'm saying our position, from current contracts to future appeal to free agents is somewhere beyond atrocious. (which is pretty depressing, as the Suns are probably my favorite team) Combine that with a clueless and meddlesome front office, and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The difference in contract lengths is one year, plus whatever Turkoglu's buyout is for 2013-14. We know that he "took less guaranteed money" in order to facilitate the trade to the Suns, but I haven't heard any figure.

But in any case, calling Turkoglu's $11.4 million in 2012-13 a "salary cap noose" is awfully extreme. He probably won't be worth that contract, but if he's playing at an MLE level (which seems reasonably likely), then he'll be only about $5 million overpaid.

he's barely even playing at that level now. What makes you think he'll be at that level a couple years down the road?

you even trying to argue this point is laughable. It's a really bad contract that goes on for a while.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The difference in contract lengths is one year, plus whatever Turkoglu's buyout is for 2013-14. We know that he "took less guaranteed money" in order to facilitate the trade to the Suns, but I haven't heard any figure.

But in any case, calling Turkoglu's $11.4 million in 2012-13 a "salary cap noose" is awfully extreme. He probably won't be worth that contract, but if he's playing at an MLE level (which seems reasonably likely), then he'll be only about $5 million overpaid. Among the ranks of the league's terrible contracts, it hardly registers.

I think a lot of people are exaggerating the Turkoglu problem in order to have something to complain about. Drop his salary by a few million a year, and he'd be just another ho-hum rotation guy. It's a bad contract, but let's try to have some perspective.

Which is to say, the difference in contract length is two years. IIRC, Hedo waived a trade bonus and a little bit of his final year salary. I don't think Hedo fits this offense and I don't think he's aging well. Unless he decides to change his personal habits, his contract will feel a lot like a noose come year 3 and year 4. That is, if we haven't already found a sucker to take him off our hands before then. Does Sarver have a brother?

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

if he's playing at an MLE level (which seems reasonably likely), then he'll be only about $5 million overpaid. Among the ranks of the league's terrible contracts, it hardly registers.

I think a lot of people are exaggerating the Turkoglu problem in order to have something to complain about. Drop his salary by a few million a year, and he'd be just another ho-hum rotation guy. It's a bad contract, but let's try to have some perspective.

Perspective? He is one of the worst starting forwards in basketball and he's having his worst scoring average in 7 years. Further, he's the worst defender on the team, and one of the worst in the league. He's far too weak to guard PF's and far too slow to guard SF's. Oh, and the overwhelming odds are that he'll continue to get worse as he gets older.

People aren't exaggerating the Turkoglu problem; at this point, he's much more likely to get cut than finish his contract with the team. Before the summer, his contract was considered one of the most toxic in the league. It's hard to imagine his performance thus far has changed that opinion.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Turk aged pretty fast. We obviously would have been better off with Barbs. But Barbosa was considered expendable with Childress coming in and Dragic's progress. So they took a flyer on a big guy they thought might be able to contribute.

Gamble, didn't work. Cut the losses and move on.