Knicks coming apart

[elindholm]

I disagree that Turkoglu is "aging." He's the same player he has been most of his career. He had a couple of big years in Orlando when he happened to be a perfect fit for them, and that's why he became the oldest player ever to win Most Improved. It's also why he got paid like a borderline All-Star, which was obviously a mistake. But if you look at his career numbers, he's very close now to what he was in his first four years, when he was a sixth or seventh man. I really don't see any reason to think that he'll be worse in a few years than he is now. The guy's only 30 years old.

I also disagree that the Suns would have been better off with Barbosa. Some of you are forgetting what a constant frustration Barbosa had become on both ends of the floor. On the Raptors, who aren't exactly flush with talent, he's averaging only 23 minutes -- his second lowest in six years -- and shooting a dismal 29% from three-point range. And yes, he's been injured, but that's obviously part of his problem.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I disagree that Turkoglu is "aging." He's the same player he has been most of his career. He had a couple of big years in Orlando when he happened to be a perfect fit for them, and that's why he became the oldest player ever to win Most Improved. It's also why he got paid like a borderline All-Star, which was obviously a mistake. But if you look at his career numbers, he's very close now to what he was in his first four years, when he was a sixth or seventh man. I really don't see any reason to think that he'll be worse in a few years than he is now. The guy's only 30 years old.

I also disagree that the Suns would have been better off with Barbosa. Some of you are forgetting what a constant frustration Barbosa had become on both ends of the floor. On the Raptors, who aren't exactly flush with talent, he's averaging only 23 minutes -- his second lowest in six years -- and shooting a dismal 29% from three-point range. And yes, he's been injured, but that's obviously part of his problem.

He turns 32 in March. Maybe I'm confusing him with someone else but I thought there were frequent reports about him overdoing the night life and not taking care of his body. Those kind of players rarely age well.

Steve

 

[Budden]

First off, I don't think we need to be arguing about whether the Suns are better than the Knicks or vice versa. This league is big enough for two mediocre teams.

As far as the future is concerned, it's difficult to argue that the Suns' outlook is better than that of the Knicks. For the sake of analysis, let's just ignore the current rosters, contracts, young/developing talent, etc. for a few moments, and let's examine the respective attitutudes of each team's management. The Knicks are willing to take calculated risks; the Suns very clearly are not. The Knicks may not get Carmelo Anthony or Chris Paul, but they have a desire to - even if it means (gasp!) dolling out max-level dollars for four or five years and (double gasp!) structuring those contracts the way contracts are structured in the NBA - which, as Amar'e pointed out, is different than the NFL.

A lot of people like to point out - I think legitimately - that Amar'e's past microfracture surgery makes it somewhat unlikely that he'll be able to perform for all 5 years of his contract. While I don't know about the validity of the rule of thumb about microfracture surgery needing to be re-done every five years - luckily, I think this idea has its roots in some statements that certain members of the Suns medical staff said, and they are always completely wrong about all things post-microfracture (this is the same surgery that was intended to prolong Penny Hardaway's career, that Penny's recovery time was initially projected to be 4-6 weeks, that Amar'e was supposed to be ready by December/January after he had the surgery, which led to him injuring his other knee when the Suns doctors read the countless MRI's on Amar'e's knee and said he was healthy enough to play, pressuring him into the traditional mid-season 4-game return)... But the point is, there is legitimate uncertainty with regards to Amar'e's health that does not apply to Lebron James, Chris Bosh, Carmelo, etc.

But, let's say that, when it's all said and done, Amar'e ends up playing 3 years at his current physical level and then succumbs to further knee injuries. I don't know if this will actuallly happen, but I think it's a reasonable assumption, right? In that case, you'd be paying him max dollars in the 4th year of his contract, during which time he plays very few games and spends most of the season rehabbing from another surgery or two. And then, in his fifth and final season, he's a physical shell of his current self, looking like Chris Webber in his final season in the league. Some people might call that a "salary cap noose." I'd call it a $20 million expiring contract that half the league would love to trade for at the trade deadline. Unlike in years past, when a "max" contract meant 7-years guaranteed, now it's only 5 years. That cuts your event risk by nearly 30% (as compared to, for instance, Penny's 7-year deal back in 1999-2000). And, for goodness sake, Steve Nash and Grant Hill are making a combined $14 million this season!! The Suns don't have the financial resources to (potentially) overpay a superstar like Amar'e when two of their top 3 or 4 players make less than what it costs Nike to use Lebron James' name in a puppet commercial? Please!

 

[elindholm]

He turns 32 in March.

Whoops, you're right, I forgot what year it was.

Maybe I'm confusing him with someone else but I thought there were frequent reports about him overdoing the night life and not taking care of his body.

There have also been reports about how hard he is working during and between practices. Pick whichever half-truth fits your narrative.

The numbers don't lie. At least right now, he's the same player he was in his first several years. So the question is, did he really get better in Orlando, and is now getting worse -- or was Orlando a fluke? I think the latter is more likely.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There have also been reports about how hard he is working during and between practices. Pick whichever half-truth fits your narrative.

??? That last comment doesn't sit well with me. Whether I'm right or wrong I do my best to reason through things. I also try to avoid picking a "half-truth" just to win an argument. I think Hedo looks to be in much better condition than he did last season and I suspect he is putting forth an effort into conditioning at this time. He has a history of behaving otherwise though and it's that history that concerns me.

The numbers don't lie. At least right now, he's the same player he was in his first several years. So the question is, did he really get better in Orlando, and is now getting worse -- or was Orlando a fluke? I think the latter is more likely.

Since when? Numbers rarely tell the true story. And in this case they aren't even close to telling the real story. He was still a very young player when he joined the deep, talent laden Kings and he struggled to adapt to the NBA style. He played inconsistent minutes his first 4 years as he adjusted to American ball so it's no surprise that his numbers went up as he entered his prime with the Magic. By all rights he should still be at or near his prime but, according to the numbers - he isn't, and as you've said, the numbers don't lie.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

??? That last comment doesn't sit well with me. Whether I'm right or wrong I do my best to reason through things. I also try to avoid picking a "half-truth" just to win an argument. I think Hedo looks to be in much better condition than he did last season and I suspect he is putting forth an effort into conditioning at this time. He has a history of behaving otherwise though and it's that history that concerns me.

I think he meant that you are ignoring (or just forgetting) half the story. Last year reports were that he was partying too much. This year the reports are of him putting in extra time in practice and working his butt off. You can't discount one and believe the other--there's no reason for that. It's obvious you put a lot of stock in the reports of excessive partying, which is fine.

Since when? Numbers rarely tell the true story. And in this case they aren't even close to telling the real story. He was still a very young player when he joined the deep, talent laden Kings and he struggled to adapt to the NBA style. He played inconsistent minutes his first 4 years as he adjusted to American ball so it's no surprise that his numbers went up as he entered his prime with the Magic. By all rights he should still be at or near his prime but, according to the numbers - he isn't, and as you've said, the numbers don't lie.

Steve

I am also disappointed by Hedo's production so far, but Toronto really WAS a horrible situation for him. And let's face it, everyone thought he'd stink as a PF, and guess what? He did stink as a PF! Now he has to get back to that SF mentality he had long ago--gotta give him more than a week to do it though.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think he meant that you are ignoring (or just forgetting) half the story. Last year reports were that he was partying too much. This year the reports are of him putting in extra time in practice and working his butt off. You can't discount one and believe the other--there's no reason for that. It's obvious you put a lot of stock in the reports of excessive partying, which is fine.

The reports about him partying didn't just start last year. I don't think his play is down this year because he is partying - I think he has a history of this behavior and it will lead (perhaps is leading) to an early decline in his overall performance.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

The reports about him partying didn't just start last year. I don't think his play is down this year because he is partying - I think he has a history of this behavior and it will lead (perhaps is leading) to an early decline in his overall performance.

Steve

Really? He had really one bad year, but if you're implying that he was partying during his Orlando years, wouldn't that make the issue moot since it obviously didn't affect him then? Is Toronto's night life that much better than Orlando's?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Really? He had really one bad year, but if you're implying that he was partying during his Orlando years, wouldn't that make the issue moot since it obviously didn't affect him then? Is Toronto's night life that much better than Orlando's?

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about his night-life affecting this season or any single season. I'm talking about the long term issues an athlete faces when he fails to take care of his body. A well-balanced healthy diet, a well-rounded exercise program and plenty of sleep or 33 starts to feel like 43. The damage a professional athlete puts himself through takes an incredible toll on his body.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about his night-life affecting this season or any single season. I'm talking about the long term issues an athlete faces when he fails to take care of his body. A well-balanced healthy diet, a well-rounded exercise program and plenty of sleep or 33 starts to feel like 43. The damage a professional athlete puts himself through takes an incredible toll on his body.

Steve

You said "overdoing the night life" and "not taking care of his body". The implication was that because he was overdoing the night life, he wasn't taking care of his body. The point is still the same. Reports from last year had him going out at night all the time (leading to not taking care of his body as you say) vs. this season where he doesn't go out all night and does take care of his body.

There's no question that an athlete needs to take care of his body. But I don't think conditioning has anything to do with it. Hedo certainly hasn't looked tired this season. In fact, I think he's done fairly well as far as conditioning goes, considering not only is he on a team that runs more than he ever has and he's had to guard guys bigger than him. His problem is that his overall skills seem to have eroded.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You said "overdoing the night life" and "not taking care of his body". The implication was that because he was overdoing the night life, he wasn't taking care of his body. The point is still the same. Reports from last year had him going out at night all the time (leading to not taking care of his body as you say) vs. this season where he doesn't go out all night and does take care of his body.

There's no question that an athlete needs to take care of his body. But I don't think conditioning has anything to do with it. Hedo certainly hasn't looked tired this season. In fact, I think he's done fairly well as far as conditioning goes, considering not only is he on a team that runs more than he ever has and he's had to guard guys bigger than him. His problem is that his overall skills seem to have eroded.

Seriously Chap, we're not communicating here. I'm concerned that his apparent life-long personal habits will take an early toll on his body (his speed, his athleticism, his coordination, his ability to withstand the ravages of the aging process). I have no idea if these habits have already begun his decline but I worry that by the age of 33 he'll be well past the productive stage.

I'm only talking about the likelihood of him being effective throughout his contract, without regard to his performance this season. Maybe Nash (with his mid-30's success) will convince him to change his eating habits and adopt a lifestyle more conducive to a professional athlete but I'm not counting on it.

And before someone calls me on this, I'm not a Hedo expert and I don't know for sure that he's as bad as the rumors have suggested over the years.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

??? That last comment doesn't sit well with me. Whether I'm right or wrong I do my best to reason through things.

I meant that it's all hearsay. You've "heard" that he screws around off the court, and I've "heard" that he's working hard. Neither of us knows. I agree that he looks to be in good shape now.

He played inconsistent minutes his first 4 years as he adjusted to American ball

He was already averaging 25 minutes per game as a sophomore.

so it's no surprise that his numbers went up as he entered his prime with the Magic.

His shooting percentages have been remarkably consistent throughout his career, with two anomalies: '05-'06 and '07-'08. I don't remember what was different then, but maybe it had to do with how the Magic's offense was structured.

By all rights he should still be at or near his prime but, according to the numbers - he isn't

Again, I disagree. Subtract out the two "up" years with Orlando -- that's two out of a sample of eleven, if you count this year -- and he's the same player he's always been. The difference is that he's paid a lot more.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He was already averaging 25 minutes per game as a sophomore.

He averaged 21 minutes per game over his first 4 years. He played 8 minutes per game more during his second year than he did in his first or third year. I'd be willing to bet that increase was due largely to a key injury (Peja or Webber). He didn't start getting consistent minutes until Orlando where he averaged 33 per game over his 5 years there.

His shooting percentages have been remarkably consistent throughout his career, with two anomalies: '05-'06 and '07-'08. I don't remember what was different then, but maybe it had to do with how the Magic's offense was structured.

His shooting percentages haven't varied greatly but he did average a couple of percent points higher during his Orlando run which I contest was the beginning of his prime years.

Again, I disagree. Subtract out the two "up" years with Orlando -- that's two out of a sample of eleven, if you count this year -- and he's the same player he's always been. The difference is that he's paid a lot more.

I'm not sure why you're restricting it to 2 years. During his prime (his 5 year stretch in Orlando) his numbers were up across the board. In many categories he far outpaced his per minute stats from early in his career. As for points, he averaged 7.8 points his first 4 years and then averaged 15.7 for the next 5 years.

To me, it's a concern that his numbers seem to be trending downward towards his pre-Orlando days. If you take his Toronto and Phoenix numbers together he appears to be on the decline.

It's hard to judge him over such a short period in Phoenix especially since he's played out of position. We do have the small hope that his Toronto numbers were an aberration and that his improved conditioning this season will see him returning to his "Magic" days. But we also have the concern that he will resort to his (reported) behavior patterns of the past. But beyond this season, I'm worried that his personal habits will bring about an early decline of his skills.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

There's no question that an athlete needs to take care of his body. But I don't think conditioning has anything to do with it.

weird.

 

[AzStevenCal]

weird.

lol. Yeah, I think he might have changed thoughts in the middle there. I don't think thoughts have anything to do with it.

Steve

 

[Bufalay]

and he's the same player he's always been. The difference is that he's paid a lot more.

the same crappy player he's always been

 

[Chaplin]

weird.

There's a surprise. Honestly, you post in response to me all the time just to be belligerent. It's quite fascinating. If I didn't post on the Suns board, you'd never post here at all.

I meant that Hedo taking care of himself isn't the issue. An athlete needs to take care of his body, yes, but that isn't what this particular topic is about.

 

[Chaplin]

lol. Yeah, I think he might have changed thoughts in the middle there. I don't think thoughts have anything to do with it.

Steve

You didn't get it either? What a shock!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

If you take his Toronto and Phoenix numbers together he appears to be on the decline.

Exactly, and his scoring numbers are the worst they've been in years. It seems pretty clear that Orlando was a unique situation for Hedo. With no point guard to speak of, he played a large part in running the offense.

Further, his atrocious defense was covered up by the best defensive player in the league. Clearly, Orlando was a unique situation, and on your average team, his shortcomings are amplified.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You didn't get it either? What a shock!

I understood your point in context Chap. But, you have to admit, taken by themselves the two sentences appear to contradict each other.

BTW, this is the point where you should realize there was an attempt at humor in our responses and just smile a little. It probably wasn't funny enough for outright laughter but hey, a smile is a great way to start the day and you can use it to cover up your dastardly plans for revenge.

Steve

 

[Mulli]

You didn't get it either? What a shock!

I understood what you were saying.

 

[Budden]

Azcentral Reporter: Hedo, I understand you just bought a house in the Valley. How does the Phoenix climate compare to Toronto?

Hedo: I am not a power forward, so it is an adjustment.

Azcentral Reporter: ...Um, ok? Not really sure that answers the question.. Anyway, you have a reputation of not taking care of your body as well as you should. Have you been able to learn anything from watching Steve Nash and Grant Hill? Any new diet or exercise regimens that you've borrowed from those two teammates?

Hedo: Well.... I am not really... Before, I am always playing small forward. But I'm not really a power forward, so I must adjust to learn how to play power forward.

Reporter: Boxers or briefs?

Hedo: I'm not a power forward.

Reporter: Is that a metaphor...?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Azcentral Reporter: Hedo, I understand you just bought a house in the Valley. How does the Phoenix climate compare to Toronto?

Hedo: I am not a power forward, so it is an adjustment.

Azcentral Reporter: ...Um, ok? Not really sure that answers the question.. Anyway, you have a reputation of not taking care of your body as well as you should. Have you been able to learn anything from watching Steve Nash and Grant Hill? Any new diet or exercise regimens that you've borrowed from those two teammates?

Hedo: Well.... I am not really... Before, I am always playing small forward. But I'm not really a power forward, so I must adjust to learn how to play power forward.

Reporter: Boxers or briefs?

Hedo: I'm not a power forward.

Reporter: Is that a metaphor...?

lol

 

[Absolute Zero]

This thread title is getting more and more ironic...

 

[Cheesebeef]

There's a surprise. Honestly, you post in response to me all the time just to be belligerent. It's quite fascinating. If I didn't post on the Suns board, you'd never post here at all.

holy cow... I instigated this much of a rant from you and am belligerent because I simply wrote a one word thought which was then echoed by a couple other people?

Get over yourself Chap. I usually post in response to posters who make ridiculous comments. You just seem to make more than others. Thus...