Kolb's Not Going Anywhere

[Chris_Sanders]

I'll have to watch it again but Bridges man didn't hit him unless Bridges was blocking Ellis who plays inside.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000046403/Kevin-Kolb-rib-injury

It's Snyder's man Ellis that hits him. 94 Cameron Jordan is the guy you are talking about I guess if anything the looped or stunted because Jordan came inside on Bridges and Ellis wound up outside. But there is no pocket to step up into because of Jordan, and when he tries to get outside Snyders man is right there.

I couldn't really see Sherman there to know if he's wide open or not but what I saw is Jordan go right by Bridges and Ellis go right by Snyder. Hyphen from what I can see starts to come up on jordan but then turns to his left to pick up someone else maybe that's who you're saying he chipped but it doesn't seem to me he chips Jordan.

hard to say the clip stops and starts on my computer.

Sorry you are correct, Kolb is so far out of his pocket that the interior rusher is able to disengage and pursue.

You cannot see how open Sherman is from that view. No one is near him when he comes out of the pocket and starts running right.

The guy is afraid to take a hit. I defended him last week as playing great in practice. But when the heat is on he panics.

 

[kerouac9]

Agree. Leinart was the prohibitive favorite going into camp in 2008 based on his contract, age, promise, and perceived ability. Warner outplayed him especially in the all important 3rd preseason game against Oakland (I guess it's not hard to top 3 INTs in one half).

If Skelton outplays Kolb (or outlasts Kolb for that matter), Skelton is the starter. It's just that simple.


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I think people have blotted out what actually happened in the 2007 season.

Warner as a starter in 2007--11 games(!!!): 238/382 passing (62.3%), 2837 yards, 7.4 YPA, 23 TDs, 16 INTs, 87.56 QB rating, 5-6 as a starter counting the Carolina game where he attempted 2 passes.

Leinart as a starter in 2007--5 games: 60/112 passing (53.6%), 647 yards, 5.8 YPA, 2 TDs, 4 INTs, 61.9 QB rating, 3-2 as a starter if you want to count the three games where he attempted 20 or fewer passes. He had 1 good game that year, at home against Seattle when he completed more than 62% of his passes for nearly 300 yards.

Warner was a riskier bet because we remembered the 2006 version of Warner who literally lost games by himself. But the numbers speak for themselves. While the media was happy to line up behind the young gun from Southern Cal, if you think that the decision on Hardy Drive was a difficult one, I don't know what to tell you.

The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Is this the play where Snyder's man hit shim so hard Snyder does a 360? #snyderswallofshame

When Kolb reaches the 1 yard line, He is being grabbed by Ellis whom is actually outside of Bridges man (which is why I thought he was lined up on the outside). Snyder is still inside of Bridges. He is looking back at the play, but he can't block someone who disengages and runs outside of him.

Kolb runs right every single time (he did it twice in two series last night). It is pretty easy if you are a defense to pressure left and disengage to the right. It makes your oline look awful but in reality there is no cohesive area to block unless you want your right side pushing to the right as well.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sorry you are correct, Kolb is so far out of his pocket that the interior rusher is able to disengage and pursue.

You cannot see how open Sherman is from that view. No one is near him when he comes out of the pocket and starts running right.

The guy is afraid to take a hit. I defended him last week as playing great in practice. But when the heat is on he panics.

Yeah I don't have any othe replay to watch but that and on that one I can't really see Sherman.

They have a second view of it but it's way more inside you can see the stunt works and both our OL's miss but I can't really see Kolb's feet then to know what yard line he's on.

He clearly backed up as you said to end up in the endzone.

 

[red desert]

When Kolb reaches the 1 yard line, He is being grabbed by Ellis whom is actually outside of Bridges man (which is why I thought he was lined up on the outside). Snyder is still inside of Bridges. He is looking back at the play, but he can't block someone who disengages and runs outside of him.

Kolb runs right every single time (he did it twice in two series last night). It is pretty easy if you are a defense to pressure left and disengage to the right. It makes your oline look awful but in reality there is no cohesive area to block unless you want your right side pushing to the right as well.

You, sir, are spot on.

 

[kerouac9]

Why even have a competition then? Why didn't Whiz just come out and say this is Kolb team when they started camp?

Why have a "competition" in the 2008 camp? Whis is an entertainer; he knows that Cards fans are going to rally behind Skelton. It wasn't beyond prediction that Kolb was going to get booed on every incompletion in camp just as he was at Fan Fest. What is he supposed to say when his guy went 1-5 to open the season and looked worse literally every week (I'm still waiting for Kolb's apologists to explain to me why this was the case if he just needed more time to acclimate to the offense)?

Whis has a responsibility to make sure that fans are engaged and interested. He has a responsibility to make sure that his team is high-profile and is being talked about for the same reason. There's no downside to saying that "Skelton deserves a shot at the starting job," but his endorsement of Skelton has been as lukewarm over the past two and a half years as his endorsement of Leinart the prior two years.

We're talking about a guy who believed that Max Hall was a legitimate starting quarterback in the NFL. I'm not sure why we should consider him a rational actor.

 

[PDXChris]

100% disagree. I rewatched the play he got hurt in slow motion.

The play starts on the 12 yard line.

1-10-ARI 12 (6:29) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 35-A.Sherman to ARI 16 for 4 yards (58-S.Shanle) [98-S.Ellis]. ARI-4-K.Kolb was injured during the play. His return is Questionable.

Kolb takes a drop all the way back to the 5. Prior to this there is a well defined pocket. The defender beats his man and LaRod chips him.

Kolb just has to slide slightly to the right and hit Sherman who is wide open for a large gain. However, he may take a hit afterwards.

Instead Kolb spins to the right and runs backwards literally another 7 yards until he is two yards deep in the end zone. That is 14 negative yards.

He is now outside of the pocket and Bridges man is free to clobber him and he does. The guy he was running from never made it into the play after LaRod chipped him.

Kolb's injury was a microcosm of everything annoying about how he plays. He threw the ball 16 yards to get a 4 yard completion and still got hit.

That is how I saw it and based on that play I have decided that Skelton gives us the best chance to win this year. Prior, I was on the fence, but we need someone who will stand strong in the pocket and get rid of the ball quickly and Skelton showed he could do that. I do not think he will be a top 20 QB, but if he can manage games and make the occasional big play, we can win 9-10 games with him.

 

[Totally_Red]

The one thing Leinart and Kolb have in common is their fragility.

One of the biggest differences is that Whisenhunt is heavily invested in Kolb and he inherited Leinart.

Kurt Warner was on the pregame show last night and said he talked with several people in the Cardinals organization who believe Kevin Kolb gives them the best chance to win. If anyone thinks KK won't be given EVERY chance to win the starting job, even after last night, they aren't paying attention.

 

[Buckybird]

When Kolb reaches the 1 yard line, He is being grabbed by Ellis whom is actually outside of Bridges man (which is why I thought he was lined up on the outside). Snyder is still inside of Bridges. He is looking back at the play, but he can't block someone who disengages and runs outside of him.

Kolb runs right every single time (he did it twice in two series last night). It is pretty easy if you are a defense to pressure left and disengage to the right. It makes your oline look awful but in reality there is no cohesive area to block unless you want your right side pushing to the right as well.

I'm not a homer for either QB, I just want one of these guys to succeed. Does Kolb leave the pocket too early at times? Absolutely! On both of those times last night I'm not sure what either QB could've done given how quickly the pocket broke down. Kolb definitely couldn't have stepped up in the pocket, but I guess he could've just fell down instead of rolling out. Maybe I saw those plays differently I guess I'm asking what could've Kolb done differently on either play other than what he did?

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not a homer for either QB, I just want one of these guys to succeed. Does Kolb leave the pocket too early at times? Absolutely! On both of those times last night I'm not sure what either QB could've done given how quickly the pocket broke down. Kolb definitely couldn't have stepped up in the pocket, but I guess he could've just fell down instead of rolling out. Maybe I saw those plays differently

If Sherman is as open as Chris is saying then he has to unload the ball then to him, and take the hit. that's our offense, the QB is going to get hit in Whiz' system if he won't take the hit he can't play for Whiz.

 

[Mitch]

When Kolb reaches the 1 yard line, He is being grabbed by Ellis whom is actually outside of Bridges man (which is why I thought he was lined up on the outside). Snyder is still inside of Bridges. He is looking back at the play, but he can't block someone who disengages and runs outside of him.

Kolb runs right every single time (he did it twice in two series last night). It is pretty easy if you are a defense to pressure left and disengage to the right. It makes your oline look awful but in reality there is no cohesive area to block unless you want your right side pushing to the right as well.

Excellent point, Chris!

 

[MadCardDisease]

Why have a "competition" in the 2008 camp? Whis is an entertainer; he knows that Cards fans are going to rally behind Skelton. It wasn't beyond prediction that Kolb was going to get booed on every incompletion in camp just as he was at Fan Fest. What is he supposed to say when his guy went 1-5 to open the season and looked worse literally every week (I'm still waiting for Kolb's apologists to explain to me why this was the case if he just needed more time to acclimate to the offense)?

Whis has a responsibility to make sure that fans are engaged and interested. He has a responsibility to make sure that his team is high-profile and is being talked about for the same reason. There's no downside to saying that "Skelton deserves a shot at the starting job," but his endorsement of Skelton has been as lukewarm over the past two and a half years as his endorsement of Leinart the prior two years.

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Time to bust out your tin foil hats or Whiz will manipulate your minds! You heard it here first people!

 

[Mitch]

The one thing Leinart and Kolb have in common is their fragility.

One of the biggest differences is that Whisenhunt is heavily invested in Kolb and he inherited Leinart.

Kurt Warner was on the pregame show last night and said he talked with several people in the Cardinals organization who believe Kevin Kolb gives them the best chance to win. If anyone thinks KK won't be given EVERY chance to win the starting job, even after last night, they aren't paying attention.

I heard Warner say this two weeks ago, and I still don't buy it, TR, because I don't think our coaches are giving info to Warner. Maybe Warner has talked to one coach on his own.

Warner---who says differently but still harbors a chip on his shoulder as to how the Cardinals' FO treated him---likes the fact that the Cardinals are struggling to replace him. And when it comes to hanging in the pocket and letting the play develop, Kolb is like the anti-Warner. The difference is startling. So, for Warner to be endorsing him seems absurd. Kind of like Warner endorsing a totally washed up Marc Bulger.

 

[THESMEL]

More like Leinart and DA!

Da had a QB rating of like 2 and the rest of the offense was letting him down by not have 20 yard closing range.

Leinart had a qb rating of 110+ and was wholey responsible for the rest of the team running backwards and not getting a first down under constant blitz.

Skelton is the new Leinart for whatever reason, lets kick him in the nuts and see how he responds to adversity!

Wasn't this same thing said about Lienart and Warner?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Vision of the future:



Nothing is going to de-rail the "Kevin Kolb, starting quarterback" train. There's two reasons for this:

1) Kolb is more talented than Skelton. Kolb has the pedigree, both as a college player and as a pro. The coaching staff is invested in Kolb to the point that Whisenhunt was escorting #4 off the field following his boo-boo while Skelton was standing by himself waiting for the play to come in. But, more importantly,

2) You can't go back to Kolb if you bench him. You just can't. For the money that he's making, he has to start or be off the roster altogether. You can't cut him because he'd have at least an $8 million cap charge (and maybe closer to $15 million) that we probably can't absorb. You can't bench the guy you traded for 13 months ago, either.

I think that Whis learned an important lesson from the Leinart experience: Quarterback isn't just another position, and if you're going to cut someone loose, the next guy better be able to succeed. Whis is playing the long game here. If Kolb is benched, you can't go back to him and have any credibility. But if Kolb continues to play like the $20 million Max Hall, then you only have to hope that Skelton can stay healthy for 10 games instead of 16.

I think that even Kolb's defenders would concede that #4 is at best a marginal upgrade on a per-play basis over Skelton--Russ, TJ, AZF, DD, let me know if you think that Kolb's head-and-shoulders better than Skelton. If that's the case, then Kolb has to prove himself to be incapable of the job before you can move on from him.

The best solution from a W/L standpoint would be for Kolb to get an injury that would allow the team to place him on IR and then release him next March. Kolb isn't going to let that happen unless he's actually hurt. He has to get work elsewhere.

Anyway, a handful of reps in the preseason--and that's what we're going to be looking at from both guys--Calvisi was saying that each quarterback was only going to get a dozen reps or so last night--isn't going to change the minds of the coaching staff.

Can't disagree with anything you said. Kolb HASN'T outplayed Skelton at this point and last night was almost something out of a Greek tragedy with first pass INT and getting hurt by a questionable hit. What a joke. There is NO WAY any players in that locker room can look him in the eye at this point IMO. Sheez man at this point make up an injury and pantomime playing through it just too show youll play with some level of pain. His credibility in that space is nil at least with me.

Like you said he'll end up starting for all the reasons you stated and most likely get injured within 6 games. Lets just hope he gets the team to a fair enough record that Skeleton can pick up from there and we can make a run.

We are going to be a running team this year boys. We better pray Beanie AND Ryan Williams both stay healthy for 16 games, another unlikely story at best.

 

[Matt L]

Here is the play in question.


I count 4 down lineman and 2 guys blitzing from the left side of the line.

I really don't see a pocket to step up in after the play action fake. If he had stepped up he would have stepped right into #91 who no matter what was beating LSH.

 

[kerouac9]

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Time to bust out your tin foil hats or Whiz will manipulate your minds! You heard it here first people!

Well, that is a cogent argument. Thanks for carefully considering my points and replying with some interesting analysis of your own.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Every scouting report, statistical analysis, college recruiter, and eyeball test.

And those have been wrong on hundreds of players, including Mr. Kolb.

I don't like Kolb, but for one random play, I'd rather have Kolb under center than Skelton.

That's an odd thing to say as a Skelton backer. Skelton clearly has some obvious flaws, but he can also overcome them with his intangibles.

As a Kolb fan (not you of course), what do you have to hold onto? He's been nothing short of a disaster since he's been here, and even his vaunted "accuracy" has been non-existent. Especially considering our line, I can't envision any scenario where Kolb is a better option. Maybe a play designed to have the QB scramble back and right?

My problem is saying that "last night's game encapsulated everything that's wrong with Kolb."

Uh, it did.

Horribly telegraphed INT - check
Awful pocket presence - check
Scramble back and right - check
Injured on a seemingly innocuous hit - check

Perhaps you can explain to me how his limited time didn't perfectly encapsulate his time as a Card?

It's funny. I think that Skelton gives the Arizona Cardinals the best chance to win 7 games, but I think that Kolb gives the Cards the best chance to win 9 games. That doesn't make logical sense, but that's the feeling I have on them.

It really doesn't make logical sense. You can make the argument with Skelton that he can "luck" his way into winning more games than he should, but what about Kolb makes you think that?

He certainly hasn't show any penchant for it yet.

 

[Russ Smith]

Anybody else notice how Skelton walks over and intentionally walks into a coach and then brushes him off.

 

[kerouac9]

Can't disagree with anything you said. Kolb HASN'T outplayed Skelton at this point and last night was almost something out of a Greek tragedy with first pass INT and getting hurt by a questionable hit. What a joke. There is NO WAY any players in that locker room can look him in the eye at this point IMO. Sheez man at this point make up an injury and pantomime playing through it just too show youll play with some level of pain. His credibility in that space is nil at least with me.

Like you said he'll end up starting for all the reasons you stated and most likely get injured within 6 games. Lets just hope he gets the team to a fair enough record that Skeleton can pick up from there and we can make a run.

We are going to be a running team this year boys. We better pray Beanie AND Ryan Williams both stay healthy for 16 games, another unlikely story at best.

I really don't think this is a factor in an NFL locker room. I try and make it a habit not to listen to the Big Red Rage, but last week Kerry Rhodes just kind of shrugged when he was asked whom he preferred to be starting QB. I think that's mostly the case in the locker room.

These guys primarily care about getting paid. Going 9-7 isn't going to get Early Doucet or Andre Roberts paid. Getting 950 yards and 7 TDs will get them paid. But the results are what they are; neither of these quarterbacks are going to enable this offense to move productively through the air. I think that earns coach Whiz a lot of respect and deference in the locker room on his decision.

I wish I believed that Whis's response would be to run the ball 48% of the time or more, but I have no faith in that outcome.

 

[Phrazbit]

The one thing Leinart and Kolb have in common is their fragility.

One of the biggest differences is that Whisenhunt is heavily invested in Kolb and he inherited Leinart.

Kurt Warner was on the pregame show last night and said he talked with several people in the Cardinals organization who believe Kevin Kolb gives them the best chance to win. If anyone thinks KK won't be given EVERY chance to win the starting job, even after last night, they aren't paying attention.

Kolb has always reminded me of Leinart... which is obviously ironic. Both are short armed "accurate" passers. But both make so many negative plays, and big ones, while at the same time relying on short passes, that its almost impossible to sustain drives.

Looking at the replay from the injury, its amazing how fast Skelton was warming up. It was mere seconds later and he is on the sideline slinging passes. I cant imagine the lockerroom has any faith left in Kolb. That is the one hope I have for Whiz making the right call, it would be hard to go against something all his players feel strongly about.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Can't disagree with anything you said. Kolb HASN'T outplayed Skelton at this point and last night was almost something out of a Greek tragedy with first pass INT and getting hurt by a questionable hit. What a joke. There is NO WAY any players in that locker room can look him in the eye at this point IMO. Sheez man at this point make up an injury and pantomime playing through it just too show youll play with some level of pain. His credibility in that space is nil at least with me.

lol... pantomiming an injury to play through is pretty funny... sadly, it's probably true he'd need to do that to gain ANY kind of respect in that locker room at this point.

Like you said he'll end up starting for all the reasons you stated and most likely get injured within 6 games. Lets just hope he gets the team to a fair enough record that Skeleton can pick up from there and we can make a run.

We are going to be a running team this year boys. We better pray Beanie AND Ryan Williams both stay healthy for 16 games, another unlikely story at best.

the only issue with us being a running team is this... it's simply not in Wiz's DNA to make us one. I agree that we SHOULD be, but what should happen and what does happen ain't always the same thing with this coaching staff, who while very successful for the Cards, have been VERY stubborn with certain head-scratching decisions in the past.

but yes... Kolb's 12 plays were like something out of a bad sports movie where the QB everyone wants to see fail because he doesn't make good decisions/is injury prone does EXACTLY what people expect him to out there by throwing a pick on his first throw and then getting injured the first time he got hit.

 

[Russ Smith]

I really don't think this is a factor in an NFL locker room. I try and make it a habit not to listen to the Big Red Rage, but last week Kerry Rhodes just kind of shrugged when he was asked whom he preferred to be starting QB. I think that's mostly the case in the locker room.

These guys primarily care about getting paid. Going 9-7 isn't going to get Early Doucet or Andre Roberts paid. Getting 950 yards and 7 TDs will get them paid. But the results are what they are; neither of these quarterbacks are going to enable this offense to move productively through the air. I think that earns coach Whiz a lot of respect and deference in the locker room on his decision.

I wish I believed that Whis's response would be to run the ball 48% of the time or more, but I have no faith in that outcome.

Agreed on the play selection it goes back to what I said about if you commit to Skelton do it soon and tailor the offense tohim. that would include run more, and when you do throw let him use that big arm to stretch the field.

 

[Duckjake]

As a Kolb fan (not you of course), what do you have to hold onto? He's been nothing short of a disaster since he's been here, and even his vaunted "accuracy" has been non-existent. Especially considering our line, I can't envision any scenario where Kolb is a better option. Maybe a play designed to have the QB scramble back and right?

Against the Ravens Kolb was running way back and left. So they could use that play too.

 

[Buckybird]

Here is the play in question.


I count 4 down lineman and 2 guys blitzing from the left side of the line.

I really don't see a pocket to step up in after the play action fake. If he had stepped up he would have stepped right into #91 who no matter what was beating LSH.

Totally agree. Kolb is skittish in the pocket, but if he would've just fell down instead of trying to make something happen he would've been flamed for not being a competitor. On his 2 plays where he ran from the pocket IMO he had zero chance because of the poor blocking.

I hope Skelton can keep going what he did last year, but I have my doubts! This is exactly why the Cards should've given up everything for a chance at Luck or RGIII...we aren't competing for another Super Bowl until we get that guy!!!