Kolb's Not Going Anywhere

[john h]

Kolb

Vision of the future:



Nothing is going to de-rail the "Kevin Kolb, starting quarterback" train. There's two reasons for this:

1) Kolb is more talented than Skelton. Kolb has the pedigree, both as a college player and as a pro. The coaching staff is invested in Kolb to the point that Whisenhunt was escorting #4 off the field following his boo-boo while Skelton was standing by himself waiting for the play to come in. But, more importantly,

2) You can't go back to Kolb if you bench him. You just can't. For the money that he's making, he has to start or be off the roster altogether. You can't cut him because he'd have at least an $8 million cap charge (and maybe closer to $15 million) that we probably can't absorb. You can't bench the guy you traded for 13 months ago, either.

I think that Whis learned an important lesson from the Leinart experience: Quarterback isn't just another position, and if you're going to cut someone loose, the next guy better be able to succeed. Whis is playing the long game here. If Kolb is benched, you can't go back to him and have any credibility. But if Kolb continues to play like the $20 million Max Hall, then you only have to hope that Skelton can stay healthy for 10 games instead of 16.

I think that even Kolb's defenders would concede that #4 is at best a marginal upgrade on a per-play basis over Skelton--Russ, TJ, AZF, DD, let me know if you think that Kolb's head-and-shoulders better than Skelton. If that's the case, then Kolb has to prove himself to be incapable of the job before you can move on from him.

The best solution from a W/L standpoint would be for Kolb to get an injury that would allow the team to place him on IR and then release him next March. Kolb isn't going to let that happen unless he's actually hurt. He has to get work elsewhere.

Anyway, a handful of reps in the preseason--and that's what we're going to be looking at from both guys--Calvisi was saying that each quarterback was only going to get a dozen reps or so last night--isn't going to change the minds of the coaching staff.

Pedigree will not buy you a bag of potato chips on the football field.

 

[kerouac9]

That's an odd thing to say as a Skelton backer. Skelton clearly has some obvious flaws, but he can also overcome them with his intangibles.

As a Kolb fan (not you of course), what do you have to hold onto? He's been nothing short of a disaster since he's been here, and even his vaunted "accuracy" has been non-existent. Especially considering our line, I can't envision any scenario where Kolb is a better option. Maybe a play designed to have the QB scramble back and right?

I think that you hold on to the idea that Kolb looked his worst against some good defenses--Seattle's, B-more's, Pittsburgh's. I think the increasing degree of difficulty might have offset whatever increased understanding of the offense he'd built.

His accuracy's not great, but it's superior to Skelton's. I think that he does get the ball to a place where his guys can run with it after the catch--and that's big in this offense. Chopper (I think, maybe it was Darkside) is right in saying that the pass to Andre Roberts wasn't mis-thrown, it was in the perfect position as a back-shoulder fade. Roberts just wasn't looking for it.

In a Shanahan/Kubiak offense that utilized the run more and allowed the QB to roll out a ton (like he did in the Dallas game), I think that Kolb can be successful. I think that Kolb might play shorter than he actually is, and so he's looking for passing lanes to throw through instead of delivering the ball over his head. New Orleans' offense is great at developing throwing lanes for Drew Brees, but our system is not supporting the quarterback.

It really doesn't make logical sense. You can make the argument with Skelton that he can "luck" his way into winning more games than he should, but what about Kolb makes you think that?

He certainly hasn't show any penchant for it yet.

Skelton doesn't win by luck, but he can't win games on his own, or by enabling his teammates. Because of this, I think that the "floor" for Skelton is lower--like 5 or 6 wins. But Skelton isn't going to be a guy--I think ever--who is going to have a game where he goes 35-48 for 422 yards, 3 TDs and a pick. I just don't think that's in his repertoire, and I fear that is the kind of game that the offensive coaching staff wants to rely on and coach for. I don't think this coaching staff is at all interested in developing game plans where we hope to have fewer than 25 attempts.

Kolb is capable of putting up those kind of numbers, and if it's 2nd and 7 on our 48 with the score 17-14 in our favor, I'd prefer to have Kolb taking the snap. I think he's more likely to complete that pass for a positive gain or a first down than Skelton is. My problem is that Kolb goes for frustrating stretches where the offense doesn't move at all, or moves backward. I'm not sure he's able to support a strong running game, because so often we're facing 2nd and 14 when he's playing.

Coach was asked what he wants in a quarterback, and he said, "First downs." What does he do when neither quarterback is capable of consistently delivering these? I'm guessing he'd go with the guy who delivers more first downs, and I'm thinking that's Kolb.

 

[LarryStalling]

I like Skelton.

1. Kolb is not a kid anymore. He will not show any major improvement.
2. The offense does not seem to respond positively enough to his brand of leadership. The team seemed to gel more cohesively after Skelton came into the game.
3. Kolb is fragile and acts like he is scared of being hit. He looks good in practice because he does not have to worry about "live" fire.

 

[john h]

You're completely off base K-9. I'm not comparing anybody to anybody. It's just that we had a young QB who was supposed to be our QBOF and everyone thought he would be given the reins without question. It didn't happen that way. Warner outplayed him and Whis used Warner instead. I think the same thing can happen with Kolb and Skelton. It Skelton outplays Kolb, Whis will start him regardless of cash considerations. It's just the way Whis operates.

That is the way it should work. Whiz job depends on it. The players know who is the best and for Whiz not to start the best player regardless of who it is would be totally dumb a__!
You cannot let politics get in the way of sanity on the football field. When we start playing the 2nd best because of politics you can be sure we will be losers.

 

[seesred]

Everything KK did last night is what he is. Even folks not aqainted with him knows he will go right like a deer in the headlights. Everyone knows that his pass on trhe run to the right will be out of bounds, picked off or thrown to Whiz.

We only have two choices. Skelton or KK. Skelton at least moved the team.It was great watching the RB get 42 yards on the drive, but Skelton hit 4-6 moving the chains on every throw. Do I wsih we had better QB on staff or a more mature Skelton you can BET on it. BUt it is what it is.

Skelton right today is the man and every throw will be watched and should he make some mistakes it will go right back to the injured. I hope they give JS some time to improve. I hope the board will not go hot and cold depending on the play. Yesterday KK played a whole game in 8 plays and showed us what he plans to do this year!

GBR
40

 

[kerouac9]

Agreed on the play selection it goes back to what I said about if you commit to Skelton do it soon and tailor the offense tohim. that would include run more, and when you do throw let him use that big arm to stretch the field.

Fair enough, but if you believe the system works and you'll be going back to the well at the quarterback position in 2013 (and I think the offensive staff and front office probably understands that they'll have to), then why would you change the system to accommodate a guy's strengths that you don't believe in and won't be starting for you next year, anyway?

The Cards actually passed more last year when Skelton was playing. I don't think the staff trusts the defense to keep the score close, so they pass and pass instead of running the ball and trying to shorten the game.

Cheese is right that it's not in Whis's DNA to be the 2008 Atlanta Falcons, even if that would give us the best chance to be right now.

 

[john h]

I like Skelton.

1. Kolb is not a kid anymore. He will not show any major improvement.
2. The offense does not seem to respond positively enough to his brand of leadership. The team seemed to gel more cohesively after Skelton came into the game.
3. Kolb is fragile and acts like he is scared of being hit. He looks good in practice because he does not have to worry about "live" fire.

If Kolb shows any skittishness what so ever the players will be the first to know. You never want your teammates to think you are not a tough guy while they are busting their butts.

 

[Phrazbit]

In a Shanahan/Kubiak offense that utilized the run more and allowed the QB to roll out a ton (like he did in the Dallas game), I think that Kolb can be successful. I think that Kolb might play shorter than he actually is, and so he's looking for passing lanes to throw through instead of delivering the ball over his head. New Orleans' offense is great at developing throwing lanes for Drew Brees, but our system is not supporting the quarterback.

Someone linked a stat recently (maybe you) showing the rate at which Kolb's passes get beaten down at the line or by line backers, which was a very very high rate.

Also, one of the criticisms of him, even before the trade, is people saying he had a "low eye level". Pays more attention to the line than to his receivers, and pays more attention to the close WOs than the deeper ones.

Even if you design an offense for roll outs I dont see how success can be sustained with him, as the Eagles saw. He might have a big game here and there but 4 out of 5 weeks you've got a pretty bad player at the helm, and any team with disciplined pursuit is not only going to shut him down but probably injure him.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Oh, Jesus Christ! Not the intangibles again! Didn't he learn from Derek Anderson?

 

[Russ Smith]

Fair enough, but if you believe the system works and you'll be going back to the well at the quarterback position in 2013 (and I think the offensive staff and front office probably understands that they'll have to), then why would you change the system to accommodate a guy's strengths that you don't believe in and won't be starting for you next year, anyway?

The Cards actually passed more last year when Skelton was playing. I don't think the staff trusts the defense to keep the score close, so they pass and pass instead of running the ball and trying to shorten the game.

Cheese is right that it's not in Whis's DNA to be the 2008 Atlanta Falcons, even if that would give us the best chance to be right now.

Well if the goal is to get a QB next year I agree run less pass more and lose more games.

I just think that's not the goal the goal should be do what you can to make the system fit Skelton best.

But you are right that Whiz hasn't shown a willingness to do that.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Its simple. Kolb cannot take a hit and he knows it. So he plays afraid. He panics and runs from the rush, making all that much harder to block for him. Its a shame really. Kolb probably should be the better qb.

 

[Buckybird]

Fair enough, but if you believe the system works and you'll be going back to the well at the quarterback position in 2013 (and I think the offensive staff and front office probably understands that they'll have to), then why would you change the system to accommodate a guy's strengths that you don't believe in and won't be starting for you next year, anyway?

The Cards actually passed more last year when Skelton was playing. I don't think the staff trusts the defense to keep the score close, so they pass and pass instead of running the ball and trying to shorten the game.

Cheese is right that it's not in Whis's DNA to be the 2008 Atlanta Falcons, even if that would give us the best chance to be right now.

I believe it's more than that k9.

I think Wiz knows that the chances of winning & winning big relies on throwing the rock, unless you have the Ravens D or Niners D. Look how bad The Packs D was last year. The Pats have gotten to 2 Super Bowls since all that defensive talent went bye bye. What about the Saints? Lions, etc. Wiz led the Cards to the SB with a high flying passing game & questionable defense.

The game has changed & points come from the passing game which is what this pinball NFL machine is now. Not many CBs can stop WRs today because of the rules & athletes playing there. I didn't expect Wiz to change regardless of Wells or Williams running the ball.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I believe it's more than that k9.

I think Wiz knows that the chances of winning & winning big relies on throwing the rock, unless you have the Ravens D or Niners D. Look how bad The Packs D was last year. The Pats have gotten to 2 Super Bowls since all that defensive talent went bye bye. What about the Saints? Lions, etc. Wiz led the Cards to the SB with a high flying passing game & questionable defense.

The game has changed & points come from the passing game which is what this pinball NFL machine is now. Not many CBs can stop WRs today because of the rules & athletes playing there. I didn't expect Wiz to change regardless of Wells or Williams running the ball.

Well, a good passing game is predicated on strong QB play, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

Running a "Warner" offense with this current personnel is the height of folly. It would be like asking the run and gun Suns to play a grind it out game, square peg, round hole.

Our only hope for success with the current personnel is to run the ball effectively to set up the pass, and hope our D can keep us in the games for 4th quarter Skelton.

 

[Mainstreet]

Maybe it's already been said, but if the coaching staff believes Kolb should be the starter, then let him be the starter. I just don't think it will have a happy ending for Kolb. IMO, he is like a boxer with a glass jaw. I don't think anyone wants to see Kolb get another concussion or other serious injury. I worry about him getting injured most every time he drops back to pass. Maybe I'm looking at things wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[Buckybird]

Well, a good passing game is predicated on strong QB play, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

Running a "Warner" offense with this current personnel is the height of folly. It would be like asking the run and gun Suns to play a grind it out game, square peg, round hole.

Our only hope for success with the current personnel is to run the ball effectively to set up the pass, and hope our D can keep us in the games for 4th quarter Skelton.

I'm not disagreeing even a little, but we're still passing nearly 60% of the time whether it's Warner, DA, Leinart, Skelton or Kolb...just saying.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'm not disagreeing even a little, but we're still passing nearly 60% of the time whether it's Warner, DA, Leinart, Skelton or Kolb...just saying.

Definitely concerning. One of the major things I liked about Whiz was the fact that he seemingly went against his roots by handing the reigns to Warner and letting him do his thing.

I'm fine with Whiz, as he's brought by far the most talent and wins to our team, but I also thought he was particularly adept at recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of our team, and tailoring an offense around it.

Looking at our QB/OL situation, I'm pretty skeptical.

 

[kerouac9]

I believe it's more than that k9.

I think Wiz knows that the chances of winning & winning big relies on throwing the rock, unless you have the Ravens D or Niners D. Look how bad The Packs D was last year. The Pats have gotten to 2 Super Bowls since all that defensive talent went bye bye. What about the Saints? Lions, etc. Wiz led the Cards to the SB with a high flying passing game & questionable defense.

The game has changed & points come from the passing game which is what this pinball NFL machine is now. Not many CBs can stop WRs today because of the rules & athletes playing there. I didn't expect Wiz to change regardless of Wells or Williams running the ball.

Winning big, yes. Winning period? Not necessarily. I think that the Falcons have had three playoff seasons in a row while executing a run-first offense with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses. The Eagles made the playoffs for a decade with a strong running game and a... limited quarterback in Donovan McNabb.

I just don't see the upside in continuing to pass at a 55% completion rate and hoping that your defense doesn't start to break down before you can sneak out of the stadium. I guess you could argue that passing even if it's not successful loosens up the defense, but I don't think that's true.

 

[Buckybird]

Looking at our QB/OL situation, I'm pretty skeptical.

Yep & anyone who sees it any other way isn't being truthful with reality.

Exactly why I wanted our team to go all in at acquiring Luck or RGIII, because neither of our guys can lead us to the promised land!

 

[Jetstream Green]

Maybe it's already been said, but if the coaching staff believes Kolb should be the starter, then let him be the starter. I just don't think it will have a happy ending for Kolb. IMO, he is like a boxer with a glass jaw. I don't think anyone wants to see Kolb get another concussion or other serious injury. I worry about him getting injured most every time he drops back to pass. Maybe I'm looking at things wrong, but I don't think so.

When Kolb went down in this preseason game Mainstreet, I became really concerned because I thought it was another concussion and if so I was saying to myself that I hope his loved ones and even coach Whis would tell him to retire. Kolb is a good guy and let's forget about the aspects of being our QB but look at Kolb being able to have a life, that guy is endangering his life playing a sport he is simply not built to endure. It is not a knock on him personally for being fragile because your average person could not take these hits either but he cannot have the constitution of a regular guy to play this position and expect to survive...he is NFL fragile. I do not question the guy's toughness, I question the severe damage his body is going to take if he keeps playing.

 

[Brian]

Here is the play in question.


I count 4 down lineman and 2 guys blitzing from the left side of the line.

I really don't see a pocket to step up in after the play action fake. If he had stepped up he would have stepped right into #91 who no matter what was beating LSH.

I just watched the first 4 seconds of that clip about 20 times. It all boils down to one thing: Snyder. If he does his job, the pocket is fine. The left side did a great job, Colledge and Sendelien stoned their guys, Levi did a great job disengaging his man and leaving him for LSH (which is stupid btw, LaRod is just too small to be asked to do that). Bridges does a decent job, but Snyder is beaten too badly. He just got obliterated. Pitiful.

 

[Mitch]

When Kolb went down in this preseason game Mainstreet, I became really concerned because I thought it was another concussion and if so I was saying to myself that I hope his loved ones and even coach Whis would tell him to retire. Kolb is a good guy and let's forget about the aspects of being our QB but look at Kolb being able to have a life, that guy is endangering his life playing a sport he is simply not built to endure. It is not a knock on him personally for being fragile because your average person could not take these hits either but he cannot have the constitution of a regular guy to play this position and expect to survive...he is NFL fragile. I do not question the guy's toughness, I question the severe damage his body is going to take if he keeps playing.

That is such a great post. Wonder if the Cardinals could approach him with a settlement offer. Is that feasible?

 

[Covert Rain]

It amazes me this team is still looking for their QB. I swear this franchise sucks at evaluating QB talent. Kurt fell into their laps and even they didn't know what they had in him.

We are going to be going through all all year and next off season back to wondering who are QB is going to be. This sucks.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

It amazes me this team is still looking for their QB. I swear this franchise sucks at evaluating QB talent. Kurt fell into their laps and even they didn't know what they had in him.

We are going to be going through all all year and next off season back to wondering who are QB is going to be. This sucks.

Easier said then done.

Miami has gone through some 18 starters since Marino retired 17 years ago.

 

[Mainstreet]

When Kolb went down in this preseason game Mainstreet, I became really concerned because I thought it was another concussion and if so I was saying to myself that I hope his loved ones and even coach Whis would tell him to retire. Kolb is a good guy and let's forget about the aspects of being our QB but look at Kolb being able to have a life, that guy is endangering his life playing a sport he is simply not built to endure. It is not a knock on him personally for being fragile because your average person could not take these hits either but he cannot have the constitution of a regular guy to play this position and expect to survive...he is NFL fragile. I do not question the guy's toughness, I question the severe damage his body is going to take if he keeps playing.

We agree. IMO, it is just a matter of time if Kolb continues to play.

 

[Darkside]

Maybe it's already been said, but if the coaching staff believes Kolb should be the starter, then let him be the starter. I just don't think it will have a happy ending for Kolb. IMO, he is like a boxer with a glass jaw. I don't think anyone wants to see Kolb get another concussion or other serious injury. I worry about him getting injured most every time he drops back to pass. Maybe I'm looking at things wrong, but I don't think so.

I agree with this. I know people make jokes about Kolb always getting injured, but for me personally it's getting to the point where I'm starting to feel bad for the guy. You make the analogy of him being like a boxer with a glass jaw--it's like putting him out there again and again and again for beatdowns.

Last year I scoffed when people posted that he was fragile; I attributed it to really bad luck. But after one preseason game?

And it's not just the injuries for me. His decision-making is terrible. He tries to lead block for Howling? In a preseason game? Really? It's admirable when you're fighting for a playoff spot, but during preseason it's just a bad decision, especially given his history with injuries. Nobody even mentions that he almost got rolled up on (ankle) during that play. And his read the next play when he threw the INT, that is a horrible horrible read. Any college player should be able to read that, it's a very basic coverage in the NFL. All that was before the injury.

And I don't care what Whiz says to the media, I don't think he's that stupid. He gave Kolb a chance after the pick, a chance to dust himself off and rise to the occasion and at least look respectable. Kolb wilted. I've harped on Skelton's accuracy bigtime but he's been in worse situations than Kolb's INT last night--he had 2 safeties in one game! And we won that game!! That's like giving away 10 points automatically, assuming all they do is kick FG's after the safety kick(s). That's mental toughness and there's no way Skelton at this stage of his career should have more of it than Kolb.

I hate giving up on dudes, and I don't want to give up on Kolb, but I was so disappointed last night. Extremely. The worst things people have said about him happened in just a few series. It's like someone said, "Show us what you're weaknesses are," and he went out and did it in under 10 snaps.