KTAR reporting we acquired Adam Dunn for prospects

[Dback Jon]

Like it or not Owings was / is average at best. He was one of the fan favorites because of his hitting ability. But as a pitcher he has been very sub-par, if not awful. I had really high hopes for Owings but don't foresee a Quentin situation.

Plus, since Dunn is going to walk, don't the Dbacks essentially receive 2 1st round picks in this deal? So you're basically trading Owings / Buck / ??? for 2 1st round picks and Dunn for the rest of the year. Not a bad way to rebuild the farm system. The Dbacks are LOADED with picks this year.

Yes, we like his hitting, but I can't get April out of my mind, when he was a very good pitcher...

 

[AZZenny]

So much of that depends on how deep the draft is, how many other top free agent compensations come before us, etc etc. To calculate this or any trade on the basis of getting the extra picks is a stretch.

 

[HooverDam]

Can't believe how many times I've been engaged in this discussion as of late...
I am not about to go and do the research, only to prove what I know to be true..

So your argument is "I know its true, and I won't hear anything else about it, regardless of actual information"?

In baseball, teams that win - a lot - build their team around age-old fundamental truths... Centerfield is always a position that produces the .300 average, high .300's to .400 OBP, speed and defense...
Yes, of course this isn't ALWAYS the case, but generally speaking it is... For the most part, and particularly over the last decade, what has been true for the CF position, is now als true for SS & 2B. Positions like RF, 1B, 3B and C are the power positions - HR's, RBI's and SLG %... Again, this isn't ALWAYS true, but for teams that sustain winning, it is...
What is truly important is to take all of this in the broader context of the make-up of the team as a whole. In the case of the D-backs, sticking with Young produces what? And what does it prevent the team from doing? Upton needs to come back and really has a good deal of pressure on him as someone, somewhere needs to hit for an average and have a respectable OBP... Again, this typically comes from CF, SS & 2B...

There's a reason the power positions are generally the corner infielders and outfielders. If you're a big strong guy, who's a bit slower (as muscle bound guys usually are), you need to play a position that deemphasis speed, 1st base is ideal. Thats why you see the Albert Pujouls', Jason Giambi's, Mark McGwire's, Derek Lee's, etc of the world at first. There bat is too important not to use, but their largness slow them down too much to play anywhere else.

In order to play Center or middle infield, you're generally going to have a lot of lateral speed, and be a more cardiovascular athlete. This may end up mean a trade off in strength, meaning those players have had to adapt and become contact guys to stay in the lineup.

Theres no need for this to be the case, it just happens do to body types. There are often exceptions though, middle infielders who are large and have power (ARod back in his short stop days), or quick lean players who have power (Griffey). But to think any team says "Well we need position player X to have hitting style Y" is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Turd_Ferguson]

And for what its worth AVG is not the most important stat and can be mistaken as so. But in the end I think everyone would rather have a .300 hitter over a .233 hitter.

Not necessarily. If you're talking about a guy hitting a Juan Pierre .300 or an Adam Dunn .233, give me the Adam Dunn-type player every time. Is it really so hard to understand that a .230/.375/.510 line is much preferable to a .300/.330/.380 line?

 

[Turd_Ferguson]

So much of that depends on how deep the draft is, how many other top free agent compensations come before us, etc etc. To calculate this or any trade on the basis of getting the extra picks is a stretch.

I don't think it's a stretch at all. If you think that Byrnes and the DBacks front office haven't attached a value to the potential compensatory picks, then you certainly don't have a very high opinion of the competency of the DBacks leadership.

First, they already know how deep next year's draft is going to be. It's not like there are any major surprises when it comes to who is going to be available in the draft....college juniors, juco players, and high school seniors. There may be a couple of instances where a high school player uses college as leverage in negotiations, and a couple might even choose to go to college. But there is no way that the scouting department doesn't already have at least a rough draft of the top 50 players that are going to be available for the '09 draft. They already know what kind of players will be available when the supplemental picks come around next June.

Second, they also have to at least have some idea of how free agent compensation might play out this offseason. It's not that difficult to look at the list of potential free agents and then make an educated guess as to who is going to qualify as a Type-A free agent and then get signed away from their teams. If given an accurate list of the players who will qualify as Type A, I'd be willing to bet that any number of people on this board could tackle this exercise and be surprisingly accurate with what actually transpires at season's end.

I hope this didn't come across as too critical, but I think your comments don't give Byrnes & co. enough credit. I'm almost certain they've already looked at all of the factors you've mentioned and have a solid understanding of the value of the 2 supplemental picks that they would get for Dunn.

 

[AZZenny]

Every time a questionable trade comes up on this board, many folks factor in future draft slots like they are worth as much or more than a minor league player we already have put hundreds of thousands of dollars into developing.

ANY draft pick after the top twenty is a total crap shoot -- No more likely to excel than the guys we're happy to give up -- and since it's out of an un-winnowed pool of candidates, whereas the AA or AAA guy we're trading has made it through several cuts, future supplemental compensation picks are statistically less likely to pan out.

So my point is that to talk like comp draft picks negate the impact of giving up a good prospect is wishful thinking. Micah Owings was very good in college and the minors and has shown us a couple really good outings. He's inconsistent. I recall a time when Webb was inconsistent... and people here wanted to trade him off. I vaguely recall when RJ was inconsistent. Owings alone is worth more than a couple #40 or #50 draft picks at this point. Throw in two other guys for 2 months of Dunn and a couple comp picks? I think we got badly out-haggled.

 

[82CardsGrad]

So your argument is "I know its true, and I won't hear anything else about it, regardless of actual information"?

I provided more than enough evidence to support my case, and that Young is a trap player that will cause more harm than good...

There's a reason the power positions are generally the corner infielders and outfielders. If you're a big strong guy, who's a bit slower (as muscle bound guys usually are), you need to play a position that deemphasis speed, 1st base is ideal. Thats why you see the Albert Pujouls', Jason Giambi's, Mark McGwire's, Derek Lee's, etc of the world at first. There bat is too important not to use, but their largness slow them down too much to play anywhere else.

In order to play Center or middle infield, you're generally going to have a lot of lateral speed, and be a more cardiovascular athlete. This may end up mean a trade off in strength, meaning those players have had to adapt and become contact guys to stay in the lineup.

Theres no need for this to be the case, it just happens do to body types. There are often exceptions though, middle infielders who are large and have power (ARod back in his short stop days), or quick lean players who have power (Griffey). But to think any team says "Well we need position player X to have hitting style Y" is beyond ridiculous.

Thanks for FINALLY confirming my several points and posts!!

 

[hafey]

You haven't proven anything. All you've done is make a claim based on biased observation.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You haven't proven anything. All you've done is make a claim based on biased observation.

Right on... I have no doubt that a team with a CF who hits 25-30 HR's, bats .230 with a .300 OBP will win a Championship...

 

[HooverDam]

Thanks for FINALLY confirming my several points and posts!!

What? I'm saying its coincidental that certain positions usually have certain types of hitters associated with them because of the body types needed to play those positions. You're saying GMs should shoe horn certain types of hitters into positions and that certain positions should have certain types of hitters, which is ridiculous.

 

[sundevil04]

Right on... I have no doubt that a team with a CF who hits 25-30 HR's, bats .230 with a .300 OBP will win a Championship...

I don't want to hear one PEEP out of you if the D-backs make a playoff run. As a matter of fact why dont you go find another team with a .330BA CF with 0 HR 0 RBI. We wont miss hearing your negativity

 

[82CardsGrad]

What? I'm saying its coincidental that certain positions usually have certain types of hitters associated with them because of the body types needed to play those positions. You're saying GMs should shoe horn certain types of hitters into positions and that certain positions should have certain types of hitters, which is ridiculous.

I don't disagree that certain positions offer certain physical characteristics for the players that play those positions...As a result, those positions tend to produce results that are generally commensurate with the physical characteristics of the players at those positions...
My entire point has been that Young does not fit the traditional results produced by centerfielders. And that because he does just enough to keep the team interested in him, he's a trap player...
How many games have the D-Backs won because of Young? How many games would the D-Backs have won had Young not been there?? And how many games would the D-Backs have won if they had a centerfielder who was hitting closer to .300 and possessed an OBP closer to .400??

Hard to answer no doubt - but it's pretty easy to guess that the D-backs have not won many games because of Young's offense, and that they would have won at minimum the same amount of games without Young, and that if they had a centerfielder who was hitting for a higher average and a higher OBP, chances are they would have won a few more games...

They need more power from 1B and RF... and they need a higher batting average and OBP from centerfield. If that means they need to focus on looking at physical characteristics - so be it... It's what they need...

 

[82CardsGrad]

I don't want to hear one PEEP out of you if the D-backs make a playoff run. As a matter of fact why dont you go find another team with a .330BA CF with 0 HR 0 RBI. We wont miss hearing your negativity

Good to see you can remain objective about your team... LMAO...

And, would it really be a surprise of the D-Backs made a "playoff run"?? It would be shocking if they don't! Best pitching in the West and the NL as a whole...

My point has been that they won't sustain winning with Young as their everyday centerfielder... You feel differently... Again - your objectivity in blinding...

 

[sundevil04]

I don't disagree that certain positions offer certain physical characteristics for the players that play those positions...As a result, those positions tend to produce results that are generally commensurate with the physical characteristics of the players at those positions...
My entire point has been that Young does not fit the traditional results produced by centerfielders. And that because he does just enough to keep the team interested in him, he's a trap player...
How many games have the D-Backs won because of Young? How many games would the D-Backs have won had Young not been there?? And how many games would the D-Backs have won if they had a centerfielder who was hitting closer to .300 and possessed an OBP closer to .400??

Hard to answer no doubt - but it's pretty easy to guess that the D-backs have not won many games because of Young's offense, and that they would have won at minimum the same amount of games without Young, and that if they had a centerfielder who was hitting for a higher average and a higher OBP, chances are they would have won a few more games...

They need more power from 1B and RF... and they need a higher batting average and OBP from centerfield. If that means they need to focus on looking at physical characteristics - so be it... It's what they need...

LOL, this is such an ignorant point its amazing. Just out of curiosity what is the highest level of competative baseball you ever competed at??? Actually don't answer that Im sure you'll say MLB, when in reality its obvious your sitting in your moms basement eating doritos and chatting with your internet girlfriends who you've convinced your an mlb player...(a CF with a .300 BA of course) while you post.

 

[DWKB]

The key point is that for a CFer, CY plays a pretty damn good CF, GG worthy this year in fact and what style hitter he happens to be at the plate doesn't factor into that at all.

Does CY need to be more productive than he has been at the plate? Sure would be nice.

Will he never achieve more offensive production than he has this year? Most likely he will considering his age.

In other words I'm stating what everyone here should and probably does already know:

Chris Young is a great player to have in the middle of your OF defensively and he needs to work on being more productive at the plate however that may come about. He's 24 years old and it's too early for ANYONE to write off his career in any fashion.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

LOL, this is such an ignorant point its amazing. Just out of curiosity what is the highest level of competative baseball you ever competed at??? Actually don't answer that Im sure you'll say MLB, when in reality its obvious your sitting in your moms basement eating doritos and chatting with your internet girlfriends who you've convinced your an mlb player...(a CF with a .300 BA of course) while you post.

LOL - He is a Leinart baser as well so hes been working overdrive with his internet usage and Dortito eating as of late

 

[HooverDam]

I don't disagree that certain positions offer certain physical characteristics for the players that play those positions...As a result, those positions tend to produce results that are generally commensurate with the physical characteristics of the players at those positions...
My entire point has been that Young does not fit the traditional results produced by centerfielders. And that because he does just enough to keep the team interested in him, he's a trap player...
How many games have the D-Backs won because of Young? How many games would the D-Backs have won had Young not been there?? And how many games would the D-Backs have won if they had a centerfielder who was hitting closer to .300 and possessed an OBP closer to .400??

Hard to answer no doubt - but it's pretty easy to guess that the D-backs have not won many games because of Young's offense, and that they would have won at minimum the same amount of games without Young, and that if they had a centerfielder who was hitting for a higher average and a higher OBP, chances are they would have won a few more games...

They need more power from 1B and RF... and they need a higher batting average and OBP from centerfield. If that means they need to focus on looking at physical characteristics - so be it... It's what they need...

Hes still in incredibly young and he's surrounded by a bunch of young hitters too, so him struggling on offense ought not to be a surprise. His defense is terrific and he may one day develop into a Gold Glove Center Fielder, so I think you're being a bit ridiculous to be so critical.

 

[BC867]

Hes still in incredibly young and he's surrounded by a bunch of young hitters too, so him struggling on offense ought not to be a surprise. His defense is terrific and he may one day develop into a Gold Glove Center Fielder, so I think you're being a bit ridiculous to be so critical.

Let's not forget that as a hitter who strikes out and hits homeruns, he was thrust into the leadoff spot, a spot best occupied by one who doesn't strikeout or hit homeruns.

Why? Because he could be a good base stealer on a team that doesn't.

Chris Young's batting average is only 12 points or so below Mark Reynolds' . . . but he seems alot more screwed up at the plate.

You know who I blame that on.

 

[Skkorpion]

The key point is that for a CFer, CY plays a pretty damn good CF, GG worthy this year in fact and what style hitter he happens to be at the plate doesn't factor into that at all.

GG worthy? When CY makes his very first dive to reach a catchable ball in a critical situation, your position on him will be validated.

 

[Skkorpion]

Let's not forget that as a hitter who strikes out and hits homeruns, he was thrust into the leadoff spot, a spot best occupied by one who doesn't strikeout or hit homeruns.

Why? Because he could be a good base stealer on a team that doesn't.

Chris Young's batting average is only 12 points or so below Mark Reynolds' . . . but he seems alot more screwed up at the plate.

You know who I blame that on.

So why doesn't Chris Young try to steal much when he does get on base? The commentators keep telling us he's got the green light. Why doesn't he ever even attempt to dive for a ball?

Is it your position that Melvin has ordered him to neither steal not dive? Come on, BC. Does Melvin order him to always swing and strike out at the low and outside pitch he can never reach when everybody in the free world knows it's coming?

Arguments that Melvin is not a good manager may have some merit. But surely, players are accountable for much of their own problems, are they not?

Better proven managers than Melvin have often been fired when supposedly good players and teams have played badly.

It's not always all on the manager.

 

[82CardsGrad]

LOL, this is such an ignorant point its amazing. Just out of curiosity what is the highest level of competative baseball you ever competed at??? Actually don't answer that Im sure you'll say MLB, when in reality its obvious your sitting in your moms basement eating doritos and chatting with your internet girlfriends who you've convinced your an mlb player...(a CF with a .300 BA of course) while you post.

Now I have to admit - this made me laugh out loud!!

Nice post dude!!

 

[82CardsGrad]

The key point is that for a CFer, CY plays a pretty damn good CF, GG worthy this year in fact and what style hitter he happens to be at the plate doesn't factor into that at all.

Does CY need to be more productive than he has been at the plate? Sure would be nice.

Will he never achieve more offensive production than he has this year? Most likely he will considering his age.

In other words I'm stating what everyone here should and probably does already know:

Chris Young is a great player to have in the middle of your OF defensively and he needs to work on being more productive at the plate however that may come about. He's 24 years old and it's too early for ANYONE to write off his career in any fashion.

Is he young? Yup...

Is he a gold glover? Uh.... NOPE!

Would he be a terrific, late inning defensive replacement? Yup!

 

[82CardsGrad]

So why doesn't Chris Young try to steal much when he does get on base?

With an OBP of .300, it's a bit difficult to steal bases as you kinda need to be on base to steal a base...

 

[DWKB]

GG worthy? When CY makes his very first dive to reach a catchable ball in a critical situation, your position on him will be validated.

I'm not even sure if this is serious or not considering a "catchable ball" I would think be defined by one you wouldn't have to dive, but I'll address it anyways.

GG defense is not defined by the amount of diving catches or the given situations they occur in anymore than HR titles are assigned by the inning they come in or distance. The fact that range to get to balls without diving is much much more important than if you can make a diving catch is totally missed here. Poor defensive judgment through and through.


Also, the fielding numbers tell a different story. He's leading all OFers in defensive Win Shares at 5.5 (3 = 1 real team win)

He's been +17 Runs (since Aug 8th) according to Bill James Fielding Bible (ranks second).

And Last year CY was considered the second best defender on the DBacks when rated by fans here along with rating above a ton of other CFers in the league.

The kid can play CF. Have you never noticed how shallow a CF he playes at times? Andruw Jones did the same back when he was younger. It's because first step to their back is so quick they can cover balls hit behind their head better than most and get to more balls hit in front of them.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Since when is the ability to dive for balls one of the merits of being a Gold Glover?

The statistics bear out that CY is terrific outfielder which is more than enough for me. Young never hit for that great of an average in the minors so expecting him to do such in the bigs is unrealistic. What he needs to do is improve his plate discipline so he can become the next Mike Cameron who he always was compared to.