KTAR reporting we acquired Adam Dunn for prospects
- Thread starter thirty-two
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2004
- Posts
- 8,942
- Reaction score
- 405
Last starting CFs on WS winning teams:
2007 Coco Crisp .268/.330/.382 with OPS+ of 83
2006 Jim Edmonds .257/.350/.471 OPS+ of 110
2005 Aaron Rowand .270/.329/.407 OPS+ of 93
2004 Johnny Damon .304/.380/.477 OPS+ of 117
2003 Juan Pierre .305/.361/.373 OPS+ of 94
2002 Darin Erstad .283/.313/.389 OPS+ of 86
2001 Steve Finley .275/.337/.430 OPS+ of 91
So out of the last seven World Series winners, only two had centerfielders hitting over .300, and only one with an OBP in the "high .300s." Just two are above average in OPS+. You have to go as far back as Bernie Williams to find a WS winning CF who hit over .300 with an OBP over .400. So much for fundamental truths.
Phill11
The Payphone Man
The trade was needed if we wanted to win the division this year. I hate to see Buck go, as I had high hopes for him. But with Dunn being a rental player for the year, I'd like to see a lot of changes go along with this. Melvin already said Dunn will play RF till Upton comes back and then he'll readjust after. WHY?!? Just make a lineup and stick with it!
If Melvin was smart the lineup would be:
Drew - SS
Young - CF
Jackson - LF
Reynolds - 2B
Dunn - 1B
Tracy - 3B
Upton - RF
Snyder - C
Since Upton's out right now, put Romero in right. That is one powerful lineup. Reynolds has played 2nd before, if I'm not mistaken.
If Melvin was smart the lineup would be:
Drew - SS
Young - CF
Jackson - LF
Reynolds - 2B
Dunn - 1B
Tracy - 3B
Upton - RF
Snyder - C
Since Upton's out right now, put Romero in right. That is one powerful lineup. Reynolds has played 2nd before, if I'm not mistaken.
Arizona's Finest
Your My Favorite Mistake
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2005
- Posts
- 9,709
- Reaction score
- 1
LOL. Love ya Skkorp but stick to the football.
Josh Byrnes is the best thing to the DBacks in a long time. Dideveryone forget we were in the freaking NLCS last year and have led the division for all of about 2 days this year? Lets get a grip.
Arizona's Finest
Your My Favorite Mistake
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2005
- Posts
- 9,709
- Reaction score
- 1
See here is where everyone gets crossed up. These players don't play in a vacum. Pedroia is who he is because of the line up he is in. In fact unless Bay goes nuts expect his numbers to go down now that MAN RAM is gone.
To a lesser extent the same goes for Quentin. He actually has established Major League hitters around him so he gets pitches. Teh thing with all these DBacks is that they don't have anybody who strikes fear into the other team so they get garbage to hit.
Thats why the biggest need is to get an established hitter so these guys we have with talent aren't being pitched like they are 3-4 guys they are not ready yet to be.
Which is why the Dunn deal was a master stroke. The funny thing is Dunn will get more pitches now too because our line up is better then the current Reds one so I see his AVG going up. Like pre marital sex its all about protection except for a select few hitter who can mash just about anything (like Bonds and Manny).
I expect him to play lights out as this will give him a chance to justify the new contract hes going to want. And if the market is as dry for him as it seems we might be able to keep him for a fair market value provided he likes it here. We will see how it plays out but I think everyones numbers will get better across the board.
And for what its worth AVG is not the most important stat and can be mistaken as so. But in the end I think everyone would rather have a .300 hitter over a .233 hitter.
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
1.) Coco Crisp gave way to Ellsbury in the Post Season - who batted .360 during the post season, with a .430 OBP...
2.) Edmonds from '01 - '06 put together over that time a batting avg. of .289 and a OBP of .397.
3.) Rowand: his career #'s with the Sox were .283 average and .340 OBP - slightly higher than his '05 #'s, and in the '05 World Series, he batted .294 with a .368 OBP
4.) Damon - 'nuff said...
5.) Juan Pierre - lower than desired OBP, but average is where it should be...
6.) Erstad: in 9 full season with the Angels (he was hurt his last year there...), he averaged .285 with an OBP of .340. He batted .300 in the '02 Series, though had a low OBP of .313.
7.) Finley - career with the D-backs up thru the '01 season: .272 average and a .344 OBP. '01 Series he batted .368 with an OBP of .478!
Hey, you of course can pull out individual years to find the outlyers... Bottom line, when contructing a team that is built to sustain winning (I ahve stressed this point time and again), the CF position is the position for higher batting average, higher OBP, speed and defense. Power comes from other positions....
devilalum
Heavily Redacted
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2002
- Posts
- 16,776
- Reaction score
- 3,187
Speed up the middle and power on the corners.
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
DWKB
ASFN Icon
I think you'd want a .300 hitter with a .400 OBP at any position. A CFer with a career .300/.400 is a HOF. Teams with HOF CFers tend to be good. These aren't revelations or insights into Chris Young's career.
They also aren't very good guidelines, especially when you use such small samples as yearly playoff stats. Billy Hatcher was a career .264/.312/.364 hitter who happened to hit .750/.800/1.250 in the WS while playing CF in 1990, the year the Reds won.
If we go by this then there is nothing to say that CY couldn't put up those kinds of numbers in that amount of PAs. After all he put up a .298/.366/.524 in 20 game from April to May of this year against teams like PHI, CHC, and NYM.
So yeah, what was the point again? That Chris Young sucks more than anyone has ever sucked and the DBacks can't ever win with him in CF? Well that's got a LONG way from being a truism, doesn't it?
They also aren't very good guidelines, especially when you use such small samples as yearly playoff stats. Billy Hatcher was a career .264/.312/.364 hitter who happened to hit .750/.800/1.250 in the WS while playing CF in 1990, the year the Reds won.
If we go by this then there is nothing to say that CY couldn't put up those kinds of numbers in that amount of PAs. After all he put up a .298/.366/.524 in 20 game from April to May of this year against teams like PHI, CHC, and NYM.
So yeah, what was the point again? That Chris Young sucks more than anyone has ever sucked and the DBacks can't ever win with him in CF? Well that's got a LONG way from being a truism, doesn't it?
Dead on on the strikeouts. LOB is already bad.
DWKB
ASFN Icon
Interestingly enough, not so much (although it is a month old)
2008 NL Team LOB%
(through 7/15/08)
1. Los Angeles, 58.64%
2. Pittsburgh, 59.22%
3. San Francisco, 59.56%
4. Chicago, 59.72%
5. Arizona, 60.16%
6. New York, 60.28%
7. Houston, 60.61%
8. Colorado, 60.75%
9. St. Louis, 60.94%
10. NL AVERAGE, 60.96%
11. Milwaukee, 61.20%
12. Florida, 61.65%
13. Philadelphia, 61.67%
14. Washington, 62.04%
15. Atlanta, 62.09%
16. Cincinnati, 62.50%
17. San Diego, 64.62%
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
First off, I thought you had me on ignore?? LMAO!
Secondly, you continue to miss the entire point of my comments... No surprise however...
Third, I am not at all attempting to provide any "insight into Chris Young's career". You missed the point of my comments - remember?
Lastly, I tossed in post season stats in only a few cases as I thought it was interesting that in those cases, the CF put up the numbers that are more in-line with the hoped-for production from a CF...
I do not at all believe Chris Young "sucks"... Never once have I said that...
MaoTosiFanClub
The problem
If anything it has improved since then as the DBacks are up a half run per game since the AS break. It's become pretty obvious Skkorp and CB's opinions have no statistical merit whatsoever.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2004
- Posts
- 8,942
- Reaction score
- 405
I didn't cherrypick anything, those were the seasons that the starting CF had in the year his team won the World Series. How exactly do the numbers Jim Edmonds put up in 2001 have anything to do with the 2006 WS winning Cardinals?
they just show how false his argument is, so they are to be discarded, and replaced with numbers from 5 years earlier to prove his non-existant point!
82CardsGrad
7 x 70
Sheesh..........
This whole debate is more about the construction of a team than it is one player - as I have repeatedly stated...
Young as your CF is a trap... He prevents you from building your team appropriately...
Edmonds' '01 numbers, as well as the rest of the years are meaningful as he produced more in-line with what is generally expected from a CF. This allows the team to go secure other positions in a more appropriate way, i.e., power at 1B, 3B and if you're lucky, catcher, RF and/or LF. Relying upon your centerfielder to be the big bat is wrong and will stymie a team from establishing and then sustaining success...
Of course, this would all be a lot more clear to guys like you if not for the incredible pitching staff of the d-backs...
That's it... That's all... I'm done...
JS22
Say Vandelay!
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 5,791
- Reaction score
- 211
Gambo and Ash are speculating that one of the "players to be named later" is Micah Owings.
Interesting...
Interesting...
More Gambo blather...I would hope not, for a 2 month player.
Yotesfan85044
Registered
AZCentral.com is now reporting Owings is one of the players sent to the Reds.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/2008/08/12/20080812spt-owings.html
Ugh. I don't like this trade now. Dodgers got Manny for crap.
AZZenny
Registered User
This deal has gone from probably OK to very stupid real fast.
JS22
Say Vandelay!
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 5,791
- Reaction score
- 211
Like it or not Owings was / is average at best. He was one of the fan favorites because of his hitting ability. But as a pitcher he has been very sub-par, if not awful. I had really high hopes for Owings but don't foresee a Quentin situation.
Plus, since Dunn is going to walk, don't the Dbacks essentially receive 2 1st round picks in this deal? So you're basically trading Owings / Buck / ??? for 2 1st round picks and Dunn for the rest of the year. Not a bad way to rebuild the farm system. The Dbacks are LOADED with picks this year.
