Kyler + Coaching

[BritCard]

I agree with @DVontel.

Kyler’s poor play isn’t being absolved in the slightest. I think a lot of people here have came to a conclusion that he’s responsible for his own poor play. At the same time, a QB playing poorly, whether it’s Kyler, Colt, or any other QB in a Arizona uniform, should not directly lead to losses. When you see a QB like Lamar have a 1:4 TD:INT ratio & the Ravens still get the win, that’s an answer of a good defense with a good coaching staff. Do any of you seriously envision pulling out a win if Kyler, Colt, or any other QB put up that statline under this current regime? The obvious answer is no. Matthew Stafford with a 1:3 TD/INT ratio against Minnesota, late in the season, with two of them in his own endzone I believe, however, the Rams still managed to win by 7. That’s an answer of a very good roster that includes upper talent & depth, along with a great coaching staff.


I think no single one person should be absolved. Everyone played in a part in it

Your using outlier to try prove a rule. A QB with a 1/4 ratio would lose probably 95%+ of the time.

Our defense won the Chicago game for us. Our defense owned the Titans, Browns, Niners twice, Rams in the 1st game, Seattle in the first game.

In fact many of the big wins and the 7-0 start were built on a defense that allowed sub 20 points that the offense could build on. Many of those big score was because we kept the other team off the field.

Was the defense worse down the stretch when it was beat up and we have people out? Of course it was. But that's when we needed Kyler to step up and say "I got you". Not shrivel.

Would it be nice to have an elite defense that can still get you wins when your QB is garbage? Absolutely. But there are maybe 5 of those in the league.

 

[DVontel]

This is why I can't argue with you man. Would take like 5 seconds for you to check this and see in the last 5 games his YPG increased from 47 per game to 63 per game.

I'll argue based on facts, you can continue making up stories.

Loved how you purposely avoided the TDs statement with all of them. Based on facts? You lied about how many yards Ertz had for the season until I called you out on it earlier.


You can act like Keim isn’t a horrible GM. You can be fine with him. That’s your prerogative. I know, as most others do here as well I bet, is that he’s the biggest problem & why this team has a lot of question marks in terms of roster construction heading into next season.

 

[DVontel]

Your using outlier to try prove a rule. A QB with a 1/4 ratio would lose probably 95%+ of the time.

You can’t say it’s an outlier if there were multiple examples of teams winning despite bad QB play. Regardless if it’s Kyler, Colt, random QB, etc, do you really think we would win a game with bad play from them?

Our defense won the Chicago game for us. Our defense owned the Titans, Browns, Niners twice, Rams in the 1st game, Seattle in the first game.

You mean the games where the QBs played good? How are you still struggling to miss the point? Good Lord man.

Was the defense worse down the stretch when it was beat up and we have people out? Of course it was.

Depth is cool. Depth is fun. Depth is what we didn’t have which a lot of folks here coming into the season feared. That’s the point no one has struggled to see, but you & only you. Even Stout sees it & you guys are like two peas in a pod.

Absolutely. But there are maybe 5 of those in the league.

This mentality is why this franchise has been where it’s always been in its entire existence. Pathetic.

 

[DVontel]

Last post from me:

Kyler folded.

Keim can’t draft & has to sign old veteran talent to counter it. Also is a trash person. He overall just sucks ass.


/thread

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

190lb guys taking on charging defensive players who outweigh you by 30, 40, 50lbs is a sign of monumental stupidity, not balls.

While you’re right, it’s also part of the job description for NFL QB (and RB who have to pass block - they are actually taking on those guys).

 

[BritCard]

Loved how you purposely avoided the TDs statement with all of them. Based on facts? You lied about how many yards Ertz had for the season until I called you out on it earlier.


You can act like Keim isn’t a horrible GM. You can be fine with him. That’s your prerogative. I know, as most others do here as well I bet, is that he’s the biggest problem & why this team has a lot of question marks in terms of roster construction heading into next season.

I didn't "Lie". I even posted you the NFL link.

Keim can be a horrible GM that did a good job this season. Both things can be true. You want to blame him for all the woes while ignoring the good.

Antoine Wesley is a RZ jump ball threat and thats it, as I said earlier in the season. He never had more than 30 yards in a game in that run of bad games. He had 3 TD's in 4 games, good for him. Two of those coming vs Dallas. The only game we played well as a team.

Let's not pretend he "stepped up".

 

[BritCard]

Last post from me:

Kyler folded.

Keim can’t draft & has to sign old veteran talent to counter it. Also is a trash person. He overall just sucks ass.


/thread

Now this I agree with.

 

[Stout]

Murray doesn't like to get hit and when he gets nicked up his tolerance for getting hit goes down even further and if he gets injured then his tolerance to get hit goes down the proverbial toilet. You can't play QB and avoid getting hit to make a play sometimes. Murray's desire to avoid contact is why he doesn't step up in the pocket as doing so increases your chance of getting hit. It's why he runs backwards out of the pocket, to avoid a hit, he runs away from contact. I don't think he has the testicular fortitude to play QB in the NFL.

He's not wrong!

 

[Stout]

Last post from me:

Kyler folded.

Keim can’t draft & has to sign old veteran talent to counter it. Also is a trash person. He overall just sucks ass.


/thread

Nailed it.

 

[Stout]

I agree with @DVontel.

Kyler’s poor play isn’t being absolved in the slightest. I think a lot of people here have came to a conclusion that he’s responsible for his own poor play. At the same time, a QB playing poorly, whether it’s Kyler, Colt, or any other QB in a Arizona uniform, should not directly lead to losses. When you see a QB like Lamar have a 1:4 TD:INT ratio & the Ravens still get the win, that’s an answer of a good defense with a good coaching staff. Do any of you seriously envision pulling out a win if Kyler, Colt, or any other QB put up that statline under this current regime? The obvious answer is no. Matthew Stafford with a 1:3 TD/INT ratio against Minnesota, late in the season, with two of them in his own endzone I believe, however, the Rams still managed to win by 7. That’s an answer of a very good roster that includes upper talent & depth, along with a great coaching staff.


I think no single one person should be absolved. Everyone played in a part in it

I agree with a lot here, but not all. Some folks are absolutely 100 percent absolving KM of any responsibility for this team's problems. A small handful only, but still. Also, while poor QB play shouldn't absolutely guarantee a loss, it often will and should lead to a loss. It's a QB-driven league. Using Lamar is to use an outlier, because his defense only gave up more than 20 points in something like half their games. He got an INSANE amount of defensive support no team can count on often. That said, there's a lot of blame to pass around, and not all of it falls at KM's feet.

 

[football karma]

Murray doesn't like to get hit and when he gets nicked up his tolerance for getting hit goes down even further and if he gets injured then his tolerance to get hit goes down the proverbial toilet. You can't play QB and avoid getting hit to make a play sometimes. Murray's desire to avoid contact is why he doesn't step up in the pocket as doing so increases your chance of getting hit. It's why he runs backwards out of the pocket, to avoid a hit, he runs away from contact. I don't think he has the testicular fortitude to play QB in the NFL.

the moment you drafted a 5'-9", 200 lb QB -- you were more or less accepting you were not going to get a Carson Palmer like QB that would stand in and take a hit in order to deliver a pass.

he also makes up for that deficiency with mobility and the ability to create on the move -- so you have to take the good with the bad.

of all the Cardinals problems, QB play -- even stipulating that it needs to get better in certain areas -- is very, very low on the list

and that bolded part...... good grief

 

[daves]

The problem with the last 5 games was Kyler looked like he stopped trying. When he lost Nuk and with Alford and Watt out his body language completely changed and he looked like he had given up, except in the one game back in Texas where he had his perfect record to defend. Then he found the motivation to play well again. Outside of that he just looked like he couldn't be bothered.

Pure Mitch-level speculation: This apparent change in attitude also corresponded with his perceived "malingering" for three games with what was initially termed a low ankle sprain (and didn't appear serious when it happened). There is a consistent narrative that for some reason he lost his urgency to prepare and play at the highest level during or after the Green Bay loss.

...dave

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

This is the crux of it.

What's more likely. The whole offense just suddenly started playing poorly at the same time? Or Kyler started playing poorly and as the man that runs the offense and everyone else relies on it threw the whole offense off?

I just don't buy the idea that the whole offense and coaching sucked down the stretch and that effected Kyler. Kyler just got worse, which made the offense worse. Which makes the defense worse. Which makes the coaching look worse. The QB is the fulcrum.

He wasn't as accurate. He made some really poor decisions. He missed open guys. He threw RZ interceptions and pick 6's. His running was poor. His YPA dropped off. He just wasn't the same guy. For me the main issue was he was bad in the pocket post injury. Before he was sitting in the pocket and picking his passes, those last 5 games he looked scared to get hit. He was bugging out early. He didn't want to hold them ball so was dumping off 1st reads. It didn't look comfortable running with the ball. As a result it threw off the whole passing game.

Kyler was bad. It made the offense bad. So we lost. That doesn't mean I hate Kyler or I don't think he's a very good QB or that I want him gone.

Them's just the facts. People trying to find other excuses for the losing streak are just denying reality to absolve Kyler of blame.

It's not his fault Brit, he's just too short too see over the OL lol.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I didn't "Lie". I even posted you the NFL link.

Keim can be a horrible GM that did a good job this season. Both things can be true. You want to blame him for all the woes while ignoring the good.

Antoine Wesley is a RZ jump ball threat and thats it, as I said earlier in the season. He never had more than 30 yards in a game in that run of bad games. He had 3 TD's in 4 games, good for him. Two of those coming vs Dallas. The only game we played well as a team.

Let's not pretend he "stepped up".

Keim isn't a horrible GM, a horrible GM can't do anything right, at least he knows how to make trades lol. However, he's not a complete GM, a complete GM can draft, make trades & sign good free agents. His shortcomings are drafting & signing aging veterans which is a bad recipe for building a team. He keeps signing these aging veterans because he sucks at drafting players. It totally baffles me how he was an OL at NC. ST & he can't build a quality OL to save his ass. The only reason he still has a job is because of being buddies with MB, competent ownership of an NFL team would've sent him packing after 2 straight bad drafts, we don't have a competent owner so he stays. He'll sign some aging veterans, draft another bad class, maybe sign a decent FA or two, then blow smoke up our asses as to how good the team will be in 2022. I just don't see him fixing this mess anytime soon. I have so little faith in his drafting ability that if he had 50 picks in this year's draft he'd screw up 45 of them.

 

[BritCard]

Keim isn't a horrible GM, a horrible GM can't do anything right, at least he knows how to make trades lol. However, he's not a complete GM, a complete GM can draft, make trades & sign good free agents. His shortcomings are drafting & signing aging veterans which is a bad recipe for building a team. He keeps signing these aging veterans because he sucks at drafting players. It totally baffles me how he was an OL at NC. ST & he can't build a quality OL to save his ass. The only reason he still has a job is because of being buddies with MB, competent ownership of an NFL team would've sent him packing after 2 straight bad drafts, we don't have a competent owner so he stays. He'll sign some aging veterans, draft another bad class, maybe sign a decent FA or two, then blow smoke up our asses as to how good the team will be in 2022. I just don't see him fixing this mess anytime soon. I have so little faith in his drafting ability that if he had 50 picks in this year's draft he'd screw up 45 of them.

I want Keim gone because I believe the Cardinals need a culture change and I think the "We're all buddies" culture at the top of the org is detrimental to making the correct decisions for the franchise.

Keim also sucks at drafting, but I imagine of the 32 teams in the league 26 of their fan forums also think their GM sucks at drafting.

I still see John Schneider regularly in top 5 GM rankings but outside his 1st couple of drafts his drafting has been no better than Keims, and he's had some real stinkers. But he has Russ Wilson and Pete Carroll and those 2 on their own carry Schneider's reputation on their backs. Realistically with those 2 in place if Schneider was good the Seahawks would have had multiple super bowl wins in the last 10 years.

People accuse me of defending Keim because I'm simply realistic. I get that it's a "What have you done for me lately" league but of GM's that have been in place 5-9 drafts Keim has the 2nd best record. Of all active GM's Keim he has the 14th best record, with a team that's historically bad.

He has a better W-L record than Chris Ballard, Howie Roseman, John Lynch and Jason Licht.

Maybe it's just drafting is hard. Most GM's struggle with it and have their own "Wall of Shame".

I still want him gone. I think he's taken us as far as we can and we need a culture change. But as fans we also have to be realistic in that we aren't the most attractive franchise and the next guy might actually be worse.

 

[Stout]

I want Keim gone because I believe the Cardinals need a culture change and I think the "We're all buddies" culture at the top of the org is detrimental to making the correct decisions for the franchise.

Keim also sucks at drafting, but I imagine of the 32 teams in the league 26 of their fan forums also think their GM sucks at drafting.

I still see John Schneider regularly in top 5 GM rankings but outside his 1st couple of drafts his drafting has been no better than Keims, and he's had some real stinkers. But he has Russ Wilson and Pete Carroll and those 2 on their own carry Schneider's reputation on their backs. Realistically with those 2 in place if Schneider was good the Seahawks would have had multiple super bowl wins in the last 10 years.

People accuse me of defending Keim because I'm simply realistic. I get that it's a "What have you done for me lately" league but of GM's that have been in place 5-9 drafts Keim has the 2nd best record. Of all active GM's Keim he has the 14th best record, with a team that's historically bad.

He has a better W-L record than Chris Ballard, Howie Roseman, John Lynch and Jason Licht.

Maybe it's just drafting is hard. Most GM's struggle with it and have their own "Wall of Shame".

I still want him gone. I think he's taken us as far as we can and we need a culture change. But as fans we also have to be realistic in that we aren't the most attractive franchise and the next guy might actually be worse.

Oh no. No, Keim isn't 2nd best anything. I agree with a lot of what you're putting down lately, but no.

 

[BritCard]

Oh no. No, Keim isn't 2nd best anything. I agree with a lot of what you're putting down lately, but no.

It's a statistic, it's not an opinion!

There are the long time GM's like BB, Colbert, Loomis, Snead etc. Guys that have had 10+ drafts. Keim will drop into this bunch after this draft and actually be the 4th worse of 10.

But looking at the intermediate guys who have been in place less than 10 but more than 5 he does have the 2nd best record behind only Jon Robinson of the Titans.

The funny thing is, if you went back to 2012 and said "Your next GM will have 4 winning seasons from the next 9, 2 season of .500, a 3rd season that was practically .500 and 2 ugly losing seasons and a 76-67 record" I think most Cards fans would have said "Yes please. Sign me up". Arguably if Palmer isn't injured in 2014 and Todd Bowles doesn't leave in 2015 we have genuine SB shots.

I don't want him to stay. I think he's often blind to obvious weaknesses. There are obvious moves he could make that he never does. His drafting obviously sucks, although it was a brave move to bin Rosen and draft Kyler.

But objectively speaking he's not garbage. He's average. Maybe even slightly above average. But the franchise should aspire to better (but we should also acknowledge that the change may end up worse, which might be why Mike is hesitant).

Sometimes the worst thing you can have is someone who is a little bit good.

 

[DVontel]

The funny thing is, if you went back to 2012 and said "Your next GM will have 4 winning seasons from the next 9, 2 season of .500, a 3rd season that was practically .500 and 2 ugly losing seasons and a 76-67 record" I think most Cards fans would have said "Yes please. Sign me up".

Probably not.

And with only 1 playoff win?

Actually, nah.

 

[Mainstreet]

Michael Bidwill is on Arizona Sports now.

Listen Live - Arizona Sports

arizonasports.com

 

[BritCard]

Probably not.

And with only 1 playoff win?

Actually, nah.

In the previous 9 season the Cards had 6 losing seasons which included four 5-11, a single 4-12 and a 6-10. And only 2 winning seasons. So I'm guessing most would have said yes.

 

[DVontel]

In the previous 9 season the Cards had 6 losing seasons which included four 5-11, a single 4-12 and a 6-10. And only 2 winning seasons. So I'm guessing most would have said yes.

“Why suffer for trash when you can suffer for mediocrity?”

 

[kerouac9]

Michael Bidwill is on Arizona Sports now.

Listen Live - Arizona Sports

arizonasports.com

Did he say anything interesting? Does anyone have a link?

In the previous 9 season the Cards had 6 losing seasons which included four 5-11, a single 4-12 and a 6-10. And only 2 winning seasons. So I'm guessing most would have said yes.

Yeah, but how much of that is Keim and how much of that is Arians? After Arians left, where has Keim lead us but the wilderness? Two coaching staffs and strife with our #1 overall rookie QB.

You can make a reasonable argument that Keim deserves another season to see what he's built while he was patching holes with 32-year-old spackle, but it's really difficult to argue that he's one of the better GMs in the NFL with all the surrounding context.

 

[Mainstreet]

Did he say anything interesting? Does anyone have a link?




Yeah, but how much of that is Keim and how much of that is Arians? After Arians left, where has Keim lead us but the wilderness? Two coaching staffs and strife with our #1 overall rookie QB.

You can make a reasonable argument that Keim deserves another season to see what he's built while he was patching holes with 32-year-old spackle, but it's really difficult to argue that he's one of the better GMs in the NFL with all the surrounding context.

Here is the link.

Cardinals' Bidwill: Interpretation of Kyler Murray's social scrub not reality

"We've had good conversations non-stop," Cardinals owner Michael Bidwill said of Kyler Murray on Bickley & Marotta.

arizonasports.com

 

[Mainstreet]

@kerouac9

I didn't get a lot from the interview except everything is fine with Kyler Murray and injuries hurt the Cardinals last season. Personally I wanted more meat and potatoes about what went wrong.

 

[BritCard]

Did he say anything interesting? Does anyone have a link?




Yeah, but how much of that is Keim and how much of that is Arians? After Arians left, where has Keim lead us but the wilderness? Two coaching staffs and strife with our #1 overall rookie QB.

You can make a reasonable argument that Keim deserves another season to see what he's built while he was patching holes with 32-year-old spackle, but it's really difficult to argue that he's one of the better GMs in the NFL with all the surrounding context.

You can't say that Wilks or Kliff are on Keim and not allow Keim the wins that came with Arians. It goes both ways.

I don't want him to stay but he is. No way Bidwill is firing him now.

I don't want to argue he's one of the better GM's in the NFL but his record says he is, or at least average. I don't think that says he is "better", more than likely there are just a lot of bad GM's around and being a GM is a tough job.