Lakers Vs. Suns (Pre-Game Hype)

[elindholm]

The idea that Durant, who has played all of one year in college, is at this point a more attractive building block than Bryant is laughable.

 

[Gee!]

for the love of everything holy, especially since I still live in LA, can wwe just make short work of the Lakers or Clippers in the first round? I can't go through what I went through last year - like Ouchie said, you just can't escape it and the Myopians out here just make it that much worse.

Sure you can.. Move out of LA.. Problem solved..

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The idea that Durant, who has played all of one year in college, is at this point a more attractive building block than Bryant is laughable.

 

[D-Dogg]

Actually, the notion of trading Kobe is a serious one. He's a great player and should get a lot in trade. If the Lakers had a great offensive threat like Durant, then the Lakers could fill in with higher quality support players.

As it stands now, the Lakers do not look like a team that is close to becoming a championship contender.

This makes no sense at all.

 

[azirish]

My assumption was a followup to previous post about drafting Durant and then if playing him with Kobe would cause conflicts. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It is like the discussion about whether the Suns should draft Durant or Odem, when obviously they have zero chance of getting either.

I honestly don't know what Durant's trade value is right now. He got absolutely rave reviews all season in all aspects of his game. Still, there have a been innumerable great college players who have under performed in the NBA. If I wouldn't trade Marion for Durant, then certainly trading Kobe for Durant makes even less sense.

But in the wonderful world of "what if" that dominates this board it was possible for the Lakers to draft Durant, would you play them together with the risk of conflict or trade Kobe. On paper it might be that the better option would be to trade Odem and move Durant to the PF position, but the chemistry issue is the issue that was being brought up.

 

[LakeShowMan]

My assumption was a followup to previous post about drafting Durant and then if playing him with Kobe would cause conflicts. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It is like the discussion about whether the Suns should draft Durant or Odem, when obviously they have zero chance of getting either.

Oh, OK. I still think that Kobe-Durant-Bynum would be better than any other combo you could get by trading any of them.

 

[D-Dogg]

My assumption was a followup to previous post about drafting Durant and then if playing him with Kobe would cause conflicts. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It is like the discussion about whether the Suns should draft Durant or Odem, when obviously they have zero chance of getting either.

I honestly don't know what Durant's trade value is right now. He got absolutely rave reviews all season in all aspects of his game. Still, there have a been innumerable great college players who have under performed in the NBA. If I wouldn't trade Marion for Durant, then certainly trading Kobe for Durant makes even less sense.

But in the wonderful world of "what if" that dominates this board it was possible for the Lakers to draft Durant, would you play them together with the risk of conflict or trade Kobe. On paper it might be that the better option would be to trade Odem and move Durant to the PF position, but the chemistry issue is the issue that was being brought up.

I hear you. I would trade Odom in a heartbeat, and let Kobe/Durant/Bynum/Farmar rule.

The "chemistry" issues concept is bogus...so long as Durant wasn't a lazy, coast on talent player there would be none...and everything I've seen on the kid says he's driven...he plays like it. Kobe would adore playing with someone like that.

 

[F-Dog]

The idea that Durant, who has played all of one year in college, is at this point a more attractive building block than Bryant is laughable.

I guess you should be laughing at me, too, then.

 

[elindholm]

I guess you should be laughing at me, too, then.

Bryant is one of the top players in the game, is a known commodity, has proven himself to be durable, is on a relatively affordable contract for someone of his caliber, and still has plenty of years left in the prime of his career. Durant has the "potential" to be a star. To me it's no contest.

 

[F-Dog]

I don't think "potential" implies a great deal of risk when you're talking about American NCAA D-1 players who are being graded on the Shaq/Duncan/LeBron level, as Oden and Durant are. It will take one year to get them to NBA speed, but then you're looking at six years worth of service at less than half the cost of Kobe's contract, with an opportunity to re-sign afterward.

Kobe, for all his strengths, is eight or nine years older, has a ton of mileage, and IMO isn't especially attractive as a team's centerpiece (by which I mean, I wouldn't put him in the top 5).

Plus, you use the term "building block", which implies your team isn't ready yet to compete for a title (as the Lakers aren't). The further you go into the future, the more value Durant will have relative to Kobe.



That said, I wouldn't describe your argument perjoratively. There's always something to be said for a known quantity like Kobe.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I guess you should be laughing at me, too, then.

I guess so, if you feel that Durant is a better building block than Kobe ATM.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I don't think "potential" implies a great deal of risk when you're talking about American NCAA D-1 players who are being graded on the Shaq/Duncan/LeBron level, as Oden and Durant are. It will take one year to get them to NBA speed, but then you're looking at six years worth of service at less than half the cost of Kobe's contract, with an opportunity to re-sign afterward.

Kobe, for all his strengths, is eight or nine years older, has a ton of mileage, and IMO isn't especially attractive as a team's centerpiece (by which I mean, I wouldn't put him in the top 5).

Plus, you use the term "building block", which implies your team isn't ready yet to compete for a title (as the Lakers aren't). The further you go into the future, the more value Durant will have relative to Kobe.



That said, I wouldn't describe your argument perjoratively. There's always something to be said for a known quantity like Kobe.

Can you please name me 5 players that are better than Kobe 'as a team's centerpeice'?

 

[elindholm]

That said, I wouldn't describe your argument perjoratively.

Now now ...

I don't think any team can realistically "build" for more than five years down the road, because rosters change way too much. Which current NBA team has more or less the same core as it did five years ago? The Spurs, because their "core" is Tim Duncan, are a candidate, but even they have started to shift their focus elsewhere (i.e. with Parker and Ginobili being the primary scoring threats).

If I were thinking about going for the 2013 championship, then maybe I'd rather have Durant than Bryant. But no one can afford to think that far into the future at the expense of the present.

Oden and Durant are being "compared" to the likes of O'Neal and James, but so were some other guys who didn't pan out. They aren't going to revolutionize the league in their first couple of years, that's for sure. (Or nearly for sure.)

 

[F-Dog]

Can you please name me 5 players that are better than Kobe 'as a team's centerpeice'?

Sure, as long as you respect my opinion. (I wouldn't disparage you for putting Kobe #1 on a Lakers board.)

Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Yao Ming

along with Oden and Durant, of course.


Duncan for obvious reasons, LeBron and Wade for their youth and the greater flexibility they would (seemingly) give you in developing your roster. Nowitzki for the permanent mismatch he provides. Yao because of the enormous financial advantage he brings, along with his other strengths.

 

[F-Dog]

Oden and Durant are being "compared" to the likes of O'Neal and James, but so were some other guys who didn't pan out. They aren't going to revolutionize the league in their first couple of years, that's for sure. (Or nearly for sure.)

No, not really. The only other player I can remember with whose potential was regularly placed in that company before he was drafted was Darko Milicic, who was a 17-year-old foreigner.

I've said this before, but at 16, Oden would have been the #1 overall pick over Dwight Howard.

 

[F-Dog]

Which current NBA team has more or less the same core as it did five years ago? The Spurs, because their "core" is Tim Duncan...

...and the Lakers with Kobe, and the Mavericks with Nowitzki. In fact, I believe most of the GOAT and all-history-team candidates spent the entire primes of their careers with the teams that drafted them.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

No, not really. The only other player I can remember with whose potential was regularly placed in that company before he was drafted was Darko Milicic, who was a 17-year-old foreigner.

I've said this before, but at 16, Oden would have been the #1 overall pick over Dwight Howard.

Thats only because scouts would have already thought that Oden was 25 anyway.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Yao Ming

Interesting list. I obviously don't agree, but I see your arguements.

If you switch Kobe with LeBron or Dwayne Wade, the Cavs and Heat would be better and the Lakers would be worse. D-Wade couldn't even keep that Heat team above .500 while Shaq was out.

I love LeBron, but there isn't a single thing he can do right now better than Kobe. You put him on that Cavs team in the East and Kobe has them as a top 2 seed.

It is hard to compare values of a guard and a big man, so the other ones are not easy. I would agree with Duncan, but of course he is 3-4 years older than Kobe.

Nowitzki is a matchup nightmare, but I think if Kobe had that Dallas team around him, he would be able to win a championship. We'll see if Dallas does this year (BTW, I think they will).

Yao is tremendous, but I am still not even sold on him as a franchise level player. Neither him or T-Mac have ever even won a playoff series, and the Rockets didn't excatly struggle when Yao was out.

Also, if you take it from a money standpoint, love him or hate him, Kobe is still the biggest draw in the NBA. He has sold the most jerseies this year (even in China). I saw an article on a Lakers site, and the TV ratings when the Lakers play on national TV is MUCH higher than non-Laker games. Also, the last 2 years the Lakers have led the league in road attendance. Obviously Staples always sells out as well. Something tells me people aren't watching the Lakers because of Smush or Brian Cook.

Honestly, Nash is the only player in the league that I would say that would make the team worse by trading for Kobe. He is such a unique player, and such a driving force for the Suns attack that Kobe wouldn't be able to duplicate or improve on his presence.

 

[abomb]

Interesting list. I obviously don't agree, but I see your arguements.

If you switch Kobe with LeBron or Dwayne Wade, the Cavs and Heat would be better and the Lakers would be worse. D-Wade couldn't even keep that Heat team above .500 while Shaq was out.

I love LeBron, but there isn't a single thing he can do right now better than Kobe. You put him on that Cavs team in the East and Kobe has them as a top 2 seed.

It is hard to compare values of a guard and a big man, so the other ones are not easy. I would agree with Duncan, but of course he is 3-4 years older than Kobe.

Nowitzki is a matchup nightmare, but I think if Kobe had that Dallas team around him, he would be able to win a championship. We'll see if Dallas does this year (BTW, I think they will).

Yao is tremendous, but I am still not even sold on him as a franchise level player. Neither him or T-Mac have ever even won a playoff series, and the Rockets didn't excatly struggle when Yao was out.

Also, if you take it from a money standpoint, love him or hate him, Kobe is still the biggest draw in the NBA. He has sold the most jerseies this year (even in China). I saw an article on a Lakers site, and the TV ratings when the Lakers play on national TV is MUCH higher than non-Laker games. Also, the last 2 years the Lakers have led the league in road attendance. Obviously Staples always sells out as well. Something tells me people aren't watching the Lakers because of Smush or Brian Cook.

Honestly, Nash is the only player in the league that I would say that would make the team worse by trading for Kobe. He is such a unique player, and such a driving force for the Suns attack that Kobe wouldn't be able to duplicate or improve on his presence.

I mostly agree with you. It should be pointed out that TD is only 2 years older than KB. He is probably the only person I would potentially take over KB for the reasons mentioned.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I mostly agree with you. It should be pointed out that TD is only 2 years older than KB. He is probably the only person I would potentially take over KB for the reasons mentioned.

I went and looked it up, and you are correct. He is only 2 years and 2 days older than Kobe. Not sure why I thought he was that much older.

Either way, I agreed that I would probably list Duncan ahead of Kobe, strictly from the standpoint of Duncan proven ability and the inherentadvantage of being a dominating big. I will say that I think Kobe has a few more prime years left than Duncan does. It really is a toss up, for me.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I love LeBron, but there isn't a single thing he can do right now better than Kobe.

you mean besides, shooting for a higher percentage, getting more rebounds and having more assists - and not only this year, but for his ENTIRE CAREER versus Kobe? Yeah, I'd say there are a couple things Bron, at his young age already does better than Kobe. Surely, Kobe's an assasin at the end of games Bron is and probably a better defender (when he actually decides to play), but to say there isn't a single thing better that Bron does is homerism at it's worst.

You put him on that Cavs team in the East and Kobe has them as a top 2 seed.

uh, aren't the Cavs .5 games back of the #2 seed? You put Kobe on that Cavs team and they're basically the Lakers without Lamar Odom - a .500 or below team. Hell, with perfect health last year, a HOF coach and Lamar Odom actually playing up to his abilities, the Lakers were still a 7 seed and no threat to anyone but a worn-down, beat-up Suns team. But somehow, Kobe with the drek Bron plays with now and without Jackson would somehow have the Cavs at the 2 seed? Man, I just don't see that at all.

 

[F-Dog]

D-Wade couldn't even keep that Heat team above .500 while Shaq was out.

Aren't the Lakers themselves right at .500 over the three years since Shaq left?

If you put Wade and Kobe in the same ballpark (as I do) then Wade seems to be the clear choice, because of the mileage issue.

I love LeBron, but there isn't a single thing he can do right now better than Kobe.

I can think of a few--be a team's starting power forward, for instance.

Also, if you take it from a money standpoint, love him or hate him, Kobe is still the biggest draw in the NBA. He has sold the most jerseies this year (even in China). I saw an article on a Lakers site, and the TV ratings when the Lakers play on national TV is MUCH higher than non-Laker games. Also, the last 2 years the Lakers have led the league in road attendance. Obviously Staples always sells out as well. Something tells me people aren't watching the Lakers because of Smush or Brian Cook.

To me, the question is, how much of that popularity is tied to Kobe playing for the Lakers. If Kobe were playing for the Clippers, or the F-Dog Hypotheticals, (and didn't change his jersey number every year), would the money and ratings carry over? What if the Hypotheticals struggled to a 35-win season his first year with the team?

Yao's drawing power is pretty clearly based on his inherent uniqueness. Plus, I would expect Yao to provide a 'coattail effect' for my second star, as he did with Steve Francis and now McGrady.


JMO as always.

 

[LakeShowMan]

you mean besides, shooting for a higher percentage, getting more rebounds and having more assists - and not only this year, but for his ENTIRE CAREER versus Kobe? Yeah, I'd say there are a couple things Bron, at his young age already does better than Kobe. Surely, Kobe's an assasin at the end of games Bron is and probably a better defender (when he actually decides to play), but to say there isn't a single thing better that Bron does is homerism at it's worst.

Trust me I love LeBron and his game. Plus, it was not a slight twoards him at all. I also acknowledge the fact that I may have overstated what I was saying.

The fact is though, I don't think that you can judge everything strictly by numbers. I should have said skill set wise, LeBron doesn't do anything at significantly higher level than Kobe. Here are this seasons stats.

Kobe: 31.2 pts, 5.6 reb, 5.5 ast, 46 FG%, 87 FT%, 35 3PT%
LeBron: 27.5, 6.8 reb, 6.0 ast, 47 FG%, 70 FT%, 32 3PT%

1.2 reb is a significant amount, but I would also say Kobe defends a lot mor out on the perimeter than LeBron does. Especially since he almost always covers the other teams best player. He therefore isn't in as good of reb position as is LeBron, who defens more players closer to the basket. Assists and FG% aren't a big enough difference either way.

Kobe however has a distinct advantage in many different catergories over LeBron. He is much more of clutch player. He is a much better freethrow shooter, especially at the end of games. He is a MUCH better ball handler. He is a MUCH better defender.

uh, aren't the Cavs .5 games back of the #2 seed? You put Kobe on that Cavs team and they're basically the Lakers without Lamar Odom - a .500 or below team. Hell, with perfect health last year, a HOF coach and Lamar Odom actually playing up to his abilities, the Lakers were still a 7 seed and no threat to anyone but a worn-down, beat-up Suns team. But somehow, Kobe with the drek Bron plays with now and without Jackson would somehow have the Cavs at the 2 seed? Man, I just don't see that at all.

I quickly glanced and saw that Cleveland was a number 5 seed in the East. I should have lloked at the records more closely. However I still think they would be better with Kobe, playing in that absolutely DREADFUL conference.

Kobe has carried the Lakers all year, and the team has had their projected starting lineup (Kwame, Odom, Walton, Kobe, and Smush) for a total 6 games this year. Last year he was playing with a starting PG that played in the D league the year before and the only guys on the team that knew the offense was him, Luke and Cook. Also, I am not sure a team has perfect health when they lose their starting center for the season.

Bottom line, LeBron is amazing, but he is not on Kobe Bryant's level yet.

 

[D-Dogg]

No, not really. The only other player I can remember with whose potential was regularly placed in that company before he was drafted was Darko Milicic, who was a 17-year-old foreigner.

I've said this before, but at 16, Oden would have been the #1 overall pick over Dwight Howard.

Would have been a bad pick, too.

 

[D-Dogg]

...and the Lakers with Kobe,

5 years ago the Lakers core was Kobe & Shaq. Now it is Kobe and Odom.