Lakers Vs. Suns (Pre-Game Hype)

[Cheesebeef]

Come on cheesebeef, do you really think that Miami wins that championship without the ridiculously one-sided foul calls? They were getting blown out of the water until the refs started sending Wade to the line 24 times a game.

Plus, I like Wade, but the only thing he does better than Kobe is get into the lane on a consistent basis and shot more more FTs per game. I'd say Wade may be a better playmaker, but also plays in an offense where he plays a 2 man game with Shaq or takes it to the rim and tries to score or kicks it out. That is much more conducive to getting assists. The triangle is a lot more passing, cutting and spacing and never produces high single player assists rates.

Kobe has a much more varied offensive attack than Dwayne. Is a much better outside shooter. Is a much better defender.

Let me ask you this, and I hope you can answer me honestly. If we switched Kobe and D-Wade, which team would be more improved?

you hope i can answer you obviously? First, I don't appreciate the inference that I'm some sort of Kobe-basher who's an idiot and just lying for whatever reason. You can ask D-Dog - I give Kobe his credit where credit's due, but to be told that I'm just making up something is pretty insulting... to your inteligence. Sorry that you're a homer here and someone with a level-headed, unbiased opinion is basically just proving you wrong at every turn, but you asked for it and now you're getting it.

first - the referee thing - give me a freaking break. If I had a penny for every time I heard Kings fans and Jbeecham complain about the refs I'd be a rich man, but people without bias don't bicth about the refs because it just makes them look like a sore loser - which is what you apparently are these days, as are most Laker fans as they've watched Shaq not only win a ring, but they've seen a GREAT player actually be able to play with him and outshine him, leading his team to a title.

second - the much better shooter thing - yeah, he may be a better three-point shooter, but he's not a better overall shooter and % bear that out. Just cause he has more range doesn't make him a more accurate shooter. Dwayne can pull back on a twenty-footer as easy as he can get to the hole... a skill that Kobe put in his back pocket and hasn't taken out for the last couple years.

third, as to your switcheroo question... let's see - I remember Kobe playing with a healthier, younger Shaq and a comparable supporting cast with Gary Payton and a bunch of other also rans three years ago and watched them get the ever living crap beat out of them by a pretty good Pistons team, while Wade, with a lumbering two year older Shaq, a two years older Payton and a host of castoffs kicked the crap out of a 64 win Pistons team and then won the NBA Title. This doesn't even consider that in the previous year, the Wade/Shaq team took Detroit to the brink in the ECF.

You put Wade on the Lakers and they're basically the team that went to the 2nd round of the Eastern Conference two years ago, taking a 61 win Pacers team to six games, all this after starting out the season 0-14 or something ridiculous like that. You put Kobe on the Heat and they definitely don't beat the Pistons (why would they considering a better version of that team got routed two years earlier in LA) last year and they're probably worse this year.

fourth, are you kidding with the assists argument - give me a break - when Kobe was playing with Shaq he had the luxury of double team and his primary role on the team was playmaker - and yet he still historically averaged fewer assists. And this season, WITHOUT Shaq, Wade has had his best season ever for assists at 7.7 a game. Sure you can yell THE TRIANGLE! THE TRIANGLE - but what happened that year without Phil and the triangle - did Kobe put up clsoe to 7.7 assists? Nope - 1.7 assists behind... shocker.

as far as defense - okay maybe - but Kobe's defense is pretty overrated - how do you let Raja Bell go 6-6 on you or Melo just destroy you or anyone else in the last year who's torched Bryant and the rest of the Lakers defense which is amongst the worst in the league?

sorry for the rant, just being honest here, something you apparently can't be.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It was actually only 3 years. The first two he wasn't a starter. In the third, he averaged 19.9 pts, 5.8 rebs, and 3.8 assists. That was the strike shortened season and he played a lot at the three as Nick Van Exel was the main ballhandler and Eddie Jones played the 2 guard.

The next season Phil and the triangle offense came. So it really is hard to compare.

In Phil's one year hiatus, Kobe played under Rudy Tomjanovich's horrible iso offense half the year, and then back under a modified triangle (interim coach Frank Hamblen) the other half. That year he averaged 27.6 pts, 5.9 reb, and 6.0 assists.

it's really hard to have an "honest" discussion with a Laker homer when you actually know more about their team than they do. Kobe played the 2 during the majority of the strike shortened because Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell were traded for Glen Rice early that year.

 

[Gee!]

I'm with Donald on this one. James hasn't shown the fire yet, and the Cavaliers don't come close to getting the most out of their talent. Compare James's supporting cast with Bryant's and ask which team should be superior.

I believe they said the same thing about Michael Jordan.. Now only time will tell.. Thats all we can wait for..

 

[Gee!]

right, we've NEVER seen Kobe take that kind of horrific shot. Give me a break here D-Dog. Especially never one when he was only 23. Take off the Bryant-Colored glasses.

Exactly.. I hardly ever see LeBron take them shots.. Only difference is Kobe keeps taking them and they go in for some reason.. I think Kobe sold his soul to the devil..

 

[D-Dogg]

right, we've NEVER seen Kobe take that kind of horrific shot. Give me a break here D-Dog. Especially never one when he was only 23. Take off the Bryant-Colored glasses.

Sure he does, not usually with the game on the line with that kind of time but sure he has. However, it is well-documented how much Kobe busts his ass to become better each year. How he adds new moves and shots to his game all the time. Left hand, bank shot, spins, fades...he grabs it and perfects it and incorporates it making him very versatile. I do NOT see Lebron in any way trying to do that.

Everyone takes stupid shots...But Lebron there had the ball for the whole time, and that's what he chose to do with it...in Kobe's case he would have worked to get the ball and taken a shot...if he had the ball for 11 seconds he wouldn't have jacked up the shot Lebron did..he just wouldn't have. Kobe takes his fair share of stupid shots but rarely when they "matter."

 

[Gee!]

However, it is well-documented how much Kobe busts his ass to become better each year.

To who?

Its an urban legend dude.. I hope you aint drinking pepsi right after eating pop rocks..

 

[LakeShowMan]

it's really hard to have an "honest" discussion with a Laker homer when you actually know more about their team than they do. Kobe played the 2 during the majority of the strike shortened because Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell were traded for Glen Rice early that year.

They traded for Glen Rice on March 10, 1999. So it was about half of the 50 game season. Irregardless, he still didn't play the main facilitator role (like Wade does on the Heat). That was Nick Van Exel.

As far as calling me a homer, you are free to your opinion. I have been as level-headed as anyone. I don't think the Lakers are great just because they are the Lakers. In fact, go look at the first page of this post and see what I think of the Lakers right now. I have a pretty good track record of being as fair as possible, and you are the first person in the 5-6 years I have posted here to call me a homer. If you really believe that, then so be it.

Lastly, shooting %, and being a good shooter are completely different things. I don't have access to it, but I know that D-Wade is a pretty horrible jumpshooter. I already admitted that he does very well to get into the lane, which allows him to shoot a higher %. When I said shooting, I obviously meant outside jump shooting. By your logic, Shaq is a better shooter than Ray Allen, because he has a higher FG %.

When it comes to a better player, I am talking about looking at a player through a scouts or a coach's eye. I am not talking about strictly numbers. Anyone can go to the internet and pull numbers. I repeatedly saod that numbers aren't the end all and be all. They are a nice bench mark, but don't tell the whole story. If you can't see that Kobe's all around skill set, on both ends of the floor, are far more advanced than LeBron and D-wade, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I respect your opinions, and apologize if I offended you with the 'honest' line, however I stand by my assertions, just as I am sure you stand by yours.

 

[D-Dogg]

OK, so how were his numbers then? The same? Better?

He was 18, 19, 20 then and his minutes gradually went up, as did his ppg. About 20 ppg on 38 minutes or so the last season...he was worked slowly in as the Lakers had a good team back then anyway. Lots of options with Nick Van exel, Eddie, Shaq, etc.

 

[D-Dogg]

To who?

Its an urban legend dude.. I hope you aint drinking pepsi right after eating pop rocks..

Yawn.

 

[Gee!]

Yawn.

LMAO!..

The Kobe PR machine is in full effect I see...

 

[LakeShowMan]

He was 18, 19, 20 then and his minutes gradually went up, as did his ppg. About 20 ppg on 38 minutes or so the last season...he was worked slowly in as the Lakers had a good team back then anyway. Lots of options with Nick Van exel, Eddie, Shaq, etc.

Whoa, hurry up and edit that post and add Glenn Rice, or cheesebeef will say you don't know the Lakers very well.


Just kidding cheese. I just couldn't resist.

 

[D-Dogg]

as are most Laker fans as they've watched Shaq not only win a ring, but they've seen a GREAT player actually be able to play with him and outshine him, leading his team to a title.

In fairness, during the three peat era Kobe led the Lakers in the first rounds and the WCF, while Shaq dominated the Finals. 2001 especially when Kobe manhandled the Spurs and the Kings. That team played the matchups better than any other, IMO, letting the mismatches go off on the teams that had no answer for them. The Spurs couldn't stop Kobe and tried, and failed. The Sixers couldn't stop Shaq. But Kobe would often outshine everyone in the rounds getting to the finals, and Shaq would dominate in the Finals. It isn't like Kobe did nothing...he completely killed some teams along the way. In 2001, if the WCF had an MVP it was Kobe hands down.

as easy as he can get to the hole... a skill that Kobe put in his back pocket and hasn't taken out for the last couple years.

This is my complaint number one about my boy 24...he loves that freaking jumper...yet he can get to the hole at any time. He settles far too often...I bitch about this incessantly (just not to you guys).

 

[Cheesebeef]

Whoa, hurry up and edit that post and add Glenn Rice, or cheesebeef will say you don't know the Lakers very well.


Just kidding cheese. I just couldn't resist.

that's okay - I expect it from Laker fans who are naturally douchebags... but then, again, most of those Laker fans are my best friends (unfortunately - although not so the last three years), so you're in good company!

don't get me wrong LakeShow, Kobe is an INCREDIBLE talent and clearly in his prime, but those other guys, due to age have more upside if I was building a team from scratch and no one would argue that, especially with Wade and the leadership he's already shown at such a young age, blowing past both Bryant and Bron in that category.

also, I live in LA and I watch every Laker game pretty much because a) I love basketball b) I love watching the Lakers lose and c) there's no doubt that Kobe's special and I want to see what he's going to do next. so if you think all my opinions are based off computer stats - think again. As far as shooting stats go, I'd love for you to back up your words on the Wade is a terrible jump shooter (or something to that effect) versus Kobe's jump shot comparison - I could be wrong here, but I doubt the difference is all that large as Kobe might not get to the rim like Wade, but he still gets there, boosting his shooting percentage also.

 

[D-Dogg]

LMAO!..

The Kobe PR machine is in full effect I see...

Are you serious with this garbage? You don't think Kobe's work ethic is anything special? Do you know how he worked on his left hand? Do you know how he copied Timmah's bank shot in building his own? Do you think he was just born this badass? Do you know why Kobe had no respect for Shaq?

Sorry, Kobe's one of the hardest working dudes out there who devours tape and constantly thinks of perfecting his game. Sorry you don't know that, but saying it isn't so doesn't mean it isn't so, Gee.

Your clueless.

 

[LakeShowMan]

that's okay - I expect it from Laker fans who are naturally douchebags... but then, again, most of those Laker fans are my best friends (unfortunately - although not so the last three years), so you're in good company!

don't get me wrong LakeShow, Kobe is an INCREDIBLE talent and clearly in his prime, but those other guys, due to age have more upside if I was building a team from scratch and no one would argue that, especially with Wade and the leadership he's already shown at such a young age, blowing past both Bryant and Bron in that category.

also, I live in LA and I watch every Laker game pretty much because a) I love basketball b) I love watching the Lakers lose and c) there's no doubt that Kobe's special and I want to see what he's going to do next. so if you think all my opinions are based off computer stats - think again. As far as shooting stats go, I'd love for you to back up your words on the Wade is a terrible jump shooter (or something to that effect) versus Kobe's jump shot comparison - I could be wrong here, but I doubt the difference is all that large as Kobe might not get to the rim like Wade, but he still gets there, boosting his shooting percentage also.

Terrible is a bad choice of words for Wade. What is more accurate is probably, erratic from anything outside of 16-17 feet. He is very much a streak shooter from any kind of distance. With Kobe, if he has an open look from 15-22 feet it is money in the bank. Now, contested fallaway shots, or ones of that ilk (which Kobe takes with a disturbing regularity), it is a totally different ballgame.

Also, Wade has as quick a first step as anyone I have ever seen. Also, he can elevate and finish as well as anyone.

He can not compete with Kobe though from 3 point land, or footwork, or ball handling, or posting up, IMO.

Last of all, I will say, if Cleveland offered my LeBron for Kobe straight up, I would begrudginly take it. Only because of the age difference. However, if we are talking about a 3-5 year window, there is no one in the league I would rather have than Kobe.

 

[Gee!]

Are you serious with this garbage? You don't think Kobe's work ethic is anything special? Do you know how he worked on his left hand? Do you know how he copied Timmah's bank shot in building his own? Do you think he was just born this badass? Do you know why Kobe had no respect for Shaq?

Sorry, Kobe's one of the hardest working dudes out there who devours tape and constantly thinks of perfecting his game. Sorry you don't know that, but saying it isn't so doesn't mean it isn't so, Gee.

Your clueless.

I probably am clueless.. If I see Kobe on the tv and he aint playing the Suns.. The channel gets changed quick.. I dont like one single thing about the dude.. And dont take this as laker bashing, although it adds alot to it, but if he played for another team, Id still feel the same way about him..

Now, Im not completely clueless, cuz only morons have opinions on things they know nothing about.. I know enough about Kobe to know he is not the next Jordan and he is someone I would prolly egg on into a fight if I saw him walking down the street..

 

[Covert Rain]

He was 18, 19, 20 then and his minutes gradually went up, as did his ppg. About 20 ppg on 38 minutes or so the last season...he was worked slowly in as the Lakers had a good team back then anyway. Lots of options with Nick Van exel, Eddie, Shaq, etc.

I think it's safe to say that Kobe probably peaked in the triangle system. I would be curious to see what Wade could do in it. Again, I wouldn't kick either one off my team.

 

[D-Dogg]

I think it's safe to say that Kobe probably peaked in the triangle system.

I'd agree with that, but I don't think you could say he wouldn't have in any other system.

One of those things you just can't determine.

 

[D-Dogg]

I probably am clueless.. If I see Kobe on the tv and he aint playing the Suns.. The channel gets changed quick.. I dont like one single thing about the dude.. And dont take this as laker bashing, although it adds alot to it, but if he played for another team, Id still feel the same way about him..

Now, Im not completely clueless, cuz only morons have opinions on things they know nothing about.. I know enough about Kobe to know he is not the next Jordan and he is someone I would prolly egg on into a fight if I saw him walking down the street..

Thanks for at least admitting all that.

So you gonna be softer on the Lakers when 24 retires?

 

[Gee!]

Thanks for at least admitting all that.

So you gonna be softer on the Lakers when 24 retires?

My laker hate runs deep, but Kobe intensified it.. I loved watching Magic play when it wasnt against the Suns.. Loved watching Kareem do his sky hook when it wasnt against the Suns.. I dont have that love for Kobe..

 

[D-Dogg]

My laker hate runs deep, but Kobe intensified it.. I loved watching Magic play when it wasnt against the Suns.. Loved watching Kareem do his sky hook when it wasnt against the Suns.. I dont have that love for Kobe..

You do know that Kobe is only my third favorite Laker, don't you? Magic is my favorite player of all time, and Worthy is my second favorite Laker. As much as I like 8/24, he's not in their league as to how much I jock those guys.

 

[Gee!]

You do know that Kobe is only my third favorite Laker, don't you? Magic is my favorite player of all time, and Worthy is my second favorite Laker. As much as I like 8/24, he's not in their league as to how much I jock those guys.

Whoa there big fella lol.. Dont confuse my saying I loved watching them play as me loving them.. lol.. I still hated that purple and yellow jersey, just had to respect them.. I have no respect for Kobe..

And Jordan would and did make the lakers with Magic and Worthy look like college players against him.. What was that series? 4-0? Naw I believe it was 4-1.. It was a pretty sound defeat the lakers got handed..

 

[Gee!]

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[D-Dogg]

Whoa there big fella lol.. Dont confuse my saying I loved watching them play as me loving them.. lol.. I still hated that purple and yellow jersey, just had to respect them.. I have no respect for Kobe..

Didn't say you did...just giving you a frame of reference.

And Jordan would and did make the lakers with Magic and Worthy look like college players against him.. What was that series? 4-0? Naw I believe it was 4-1.. It was a pretty sound defeat the lakers got handed..

Ok, you best stop right there...you can talk all the crap you want about Kobe and Shaq's Lakers, but tread carefully when talking about Showtime.

The bulls never would have won the titles they did if Magic had not been HIVed out of the league...they had stocked up specifically to beat Chicago...Sedale Threatt was brought in to backup Magic..those would have been CLASSIC battles, btw. We were robbed so much because of Magic's infatuation with effing as many chicks as possible.

Note, my three favorite Lakers all had issues with sex...Magic's HIV, Worthy's hookers and Kobe's Colorado hooch. What does that say about a degenerate like me?

 

[Gee!]

Didn't say you did...just giving you a frame of reference.



Ok, you best stop right there...you can talk all the crap you want about Kobe and Shaq's Lakers, but tread carefully when talking about Showtime.

The bulls never would have won the titles they did if Magic had not been HIVed out of the league...they had stocked up specifically to beat Chicago...Sedale Threatt was brought in to backup Magic..those would have been CLASSIC battles, btw. We were robbed so much because of Magic's infatuation with effing as many chicks as possible.

Note, my three favorite Lakers all had issues with sex...Magic's HIV, Worthy's hookers and Kobe's Colorado hooch. What does that say about a degenerate like me?

I have been in many Magic vs Jordan debates as to who is the GOAT.. One dude even grew up with Magic and we went around and around about it..

I will say it comes down to them two and them two only but I put Jordan on a different plane.. And see, I have going for me that Jordan never played for the Suns.. lol.. Jordan is the only player in any sport I loved unconditionally, and the reason UNC is the only team outside of AZ I follow.. I got every dvd watched everything on Jordan.. Dude was amazing.. But dont get it twisted, when the Suns played them in the 93 Finals, I hated the dude..