Lakers Vs. Suns (Pre-Game Hype)

[D-Dogg]

and the team has had their projected starting lineup (Kwame, Odom, Walton, Kobe, and Smush) for a total 6 games this year.

Good God! I hadn't realized it was THAT few....holy smokes that sucks. It has been a really disappointing year.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Aren't the Lakers themselves right at .500 over the three years since Shaq left?

If you put Wade and Kobe in the same ballpark (as I do) then Wade seems to be the clear choice, because of the mileage issue.


I can think of a few--be a team's starting power forward, for instance.


To me, the question is, how much of that popularity is tied to Kobe playing for the Lakers. If Kobe were playing for the Clippers, or the F-Dog Hypotheticals, (and didn't change his jersey number every year), would the money and ratings carry over? What if the Hypotheticals struggled to a 35-win season his first year with the team?

Yao's drawing power is pretty clearly based on his inherent uniqueness. Plus, I would expect Yao to provide a 'coattail effect' for my second star, as he did with Steve Francis and now McGrady.


JMO as always.

I see your point if you put Wade and Kobe in the same ballpark.

I obviuosly don't as I think that KObe is far superior to Wade in a many catergories.

To each his own.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bottom line, LeBron is amazing, but he is not on Kobe Bryant's level yet.

I'm not saying he is - he isn't yet, but he's a HELL of a lot younger than Kobe and comparable or better in certain areas, especially considering the crap he plays with, and this doesn't even go into the fact that Bron completely turned around a franchise that was as pathetic as the Arizona Cardinals, while Kobe has yet to win a playoff series with one of the most storied franchises in all of sports. Hell, even when the Cavs suffered an injury to their 2nd bets player last year with him missing 50 games, they still won a playoff series and took a 64 win team to a Game 7 and within a game of the Conference Finals. As far as their individual careers have gone since Shaq left the Lakers, it can't be argued that Kobe has done more to lead his team than Lebron and that's another huge factor - leadership - something I still think is a quality which Kobe lacks.

but just to be clear, there's no doubt that right now, Kobe is the better all around player, but if you were building from scratch, everyone in their right mind would take Bron in a heartbeat. We've seen what Kobe can do with scratch - pretty much nothing, while Bron has gotten scratch within one game of a conference final and completely reversed a woe-begotten franchise's history merely with his presence.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I see your point if you put Wade and Kobe in the same ballpark.

I obviuosly don't as I think that KObe is far superior to Wade in a many catergories.

To each his own.

like what? Big game heroics? Wade's been there done that. Shooting percentage? Yeah, Wade's much better there as well. Assists? Yeah, Wade's got him beat there also. Steals? Oh, Wade's got him beat there also. Leadership? Come on now.

I guess that leaves you with 3 point shooting, FT% and rebounding.

I'd pretty much take Wade at this point over Kobe as well. Again, the kid took a Miami franchise in dire straights and as a rookie, led them to the 2nd round of the playoffs when the East actually was somewhat tough with a 61 win Pacer team and the eventual NBA Champion Pistons.

bottom line, until Kobe actually proves his worth as anything other than the greatest second banana of all time (which he assuredly was with Shaq), how is he really doing anything different than what Gilbert Arenas has been doing the last two years?

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm not saying he is - he isn't yet, but he's a HELL of a lot younger than Kobe and comparable or better in certain areas, especially considering the crap he plays with, and this doesn't even go into the fact that Bron completely turned around a franchise that was as pathetic as the Arizona Cardinals, while Kobe has yet to win a playoff series with one of the most storied franchises in all of sports. Hell, even when the Cavs suffered an injury to their 2nd bets player last year with him missing 50 games, they still won a playoff series and took a 64 win team to a Game 7 and within a game of the Conference Finals. As far as their individual careers have gone since Shaq left the Lakers, it can't be argued that Kobe has done more to lead his team than Lebron and that's another huge factor - leadership - something I still think is a quality which Kobe lacks.

but just to be clear, there's no doubt that right now, Kobe is the better all around player, but if you were building from scratch, everyone in their right mind would take Bron in a heartbeat. We've seen what Kobe can do with scratch - pretty much nothing, while Bron has gotten scratch within one game of a conference final and completely reversed a woe-begotten franchise's history merely with his presence.

I like LeBron's cast much better than the Lakers cast.

I also don't think Bron is going to have the longevity of a career that people put on him...he also doesn't look as if he gives a crap about basketball in general. He's great to watch play, but I don't know about him in 5 years being anything more.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I like LeBron's cast much better than the Lakers cast.

then you're the one!

come on now - Z? That guy is so past his prime (if he ever had one), he can't even watch replays of it because it's all on VHS.

Larry Hughes? Glass Joe? And even when healthy, he gives next to nothing on the court?

Drew Gooden? A mediocre big man - the Lakers have plenty of these.

Eric Snow? come on

and the list goes on and on - botttom line, they both play with relative crap, but Odom is much better than anyone on the Cavs and even Luke Walton would be an upgrade over most of their players.

and this doesn't even take into consideration that Phil Jackson is a VASTLY superior coach to Mike Brown.

 

[elindholm]

Sure, as long as you respect my opinion. (I wouldn't disparage you for putting Kobe #1 on a Lakers board.)

Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Yao Ming

along with Oden and Durant, of course.

Agree on Duncan and James. Wade has to prove he can stay healthy -- he's crashed toward the end of two of the last three seasons. Nowitzki is older than Bryant (by a couple of months), and big men don't last as long, so his intermediate-term value is less. Yao gets hurt too easily.

One thing we've learned with Stoudemire is that the body's ability to take the pounding is something you can't assess until being put to the NBA test. Bryant has proven that he's up to it; with Oden and Durant, who knows? (Stoudemire would be on the list ahead of Bryant if not for his knees.)

No, not really. The only other player I can remember with whose potential was regularly placed in that company before he was drafted was Darko Milicic, who was a 17-year-old foreigner.

I was specifically thinking of Ralph Sampson, who was so highly touted that he inspired campaigns of "lose one more for 7-foot-4." He's quite a while ago, and I suspect there are others more recent, but I concede that I can't think of them at the moment. Jay Williams, maybe, who was supposed to be the second coming of Kidd.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I also don't think Bron is going to have the longevity of a career that people put on him...he also doesn't look as if he gives a crap about basketball in general. He's great to watch play, but I don't know about him in 5 years being anything more.

so, you basically think Bron has peaked at age 23? D-Dog, I love ya bro, but this statement is delusional.

 

[D-Dogg]

so, you basically think Bron has peaked at age 23? D-Dog, I love ya bro, but this statement is delusional.

I question his desire to play the game. That's it.

 

[Covert Rain]

I question his desire to play the game. That's it.

That's rediculous too. The guy is in great shape and brings it every night.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I question his desire to play the game. That's it.

dude lives in Cleveland - I'd question his desire to live period, but the fact that he's still turned around the Cavs is something that just can't be ignored.

and as far as the whole "starting lineup" 6 games thing - I believe that the Heat have only had their entire starting lineup for something ridiculous like 3 games all season.

 

[D-Dogg]

That's rediculous too. The guy is in great shape and brings it every night.

He half asses it quite often when I watch. What the hell was that in the Cavs/Heat game a few weeks ago where he has 11 seconds, dribbles around and takes an off-balance, fallaway three off one foot, 3 feet behind the 3 point line? That's a bs shot, especially in a tie game when all you need is one point to win. They lost in OT, btw. Get to the rack, or get a good shot. He does that kind of stuff a lot and he also doesn't try to improve on D.

He's an immense physical talent but I just don't see any hunger there yet. Maybe he'll get it, but when he is taking garbage like that in an important game when he needs 1 point to win, it doesn't tell me a lot.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Good God! I hadn't realized it was THAT few....holy smokes that sucks. It has been a really disappointing year.

OK, I actually over stated it a little. Here are the facts though. The Lakers have had the starting lineup of Smush-Kobe-Walton-Odom-Brown in 14 games this year (out of 78 played). In those games the Lakers were 11-3. Which makes them 29-35 when they don't have that starting lineup. In that stretch of 14 games they lost to NO/Ok City, Hou, and Denver. They beat Utah, LAC, Indy, NO, ATL, S.A., Hou, G.S., Memphis, Min., and Sac.

Obviuosly, they have not been at full strength almost all year. In a lot of those games they had at least 2 starters out. When completely healthy, they are much better than their current record would indicate, unfortunately they have not been completely healthy yet this year, and probably won't be in the playoffs either.

 

[D-Dogg]

dude lives in Cleveland - I'd question his desire to live period

and as far as the whole "starting lineup" 6 games thing - I believe that the Heat have only had their entire starting lineup for something ridiculous like 3 games all season.

That's just as ridiculous...I was just surprised the Lakers was so low...

 

[Covert Rain]

He half asses it quite often when I watch. What the hell was that in the Cavs/Heat game a few weeks ago where he has 11 seconds, dribbles around and takes an off-balance, fallaway three off one foot, 3 feet behind the 3 point line? That's a bs shot, especially in a tie game when all you need is one point to win. They lost in OT, btw. Get to the rack, or get a good shot. He does that kind of stuff a lot and he also doesn't try to improve on D.

He's an immense physical talent but I just don't see any hunger there yet. Maybe he'll get it, but when he is taking garbage like that in an important game when he needs 1 point to win, it doesn't tell me a lot.

We must be watching 2 different guys. Bad shot selection is different from being Lazy. Bad shot selection is part of maturing your game. I gaurantee he wasn't thinking "wow it's too far and too much trouble to get into the lane". That will come with experience. I have seen him will his team to win on several occasions as well. I call that hunger.

Also, he is a good defender. I have seen him sloutch off on defense no more then Kobe does on some nights. I don't consider either guys defensive liabilities. If anything, his weakest part of his game is his FT shooting.

 

[D-Dogg]

We must be watching 2 different guys.

I'm watching "King James The Chosen One" and you are watching LeBron.

 

[abomb]

I'm watching "King James The Chosen One and also The Global Icon" and you are watching LeBron.

fify

 

[elindholm]

I'm with Donald on this one. James hasn't shown the fire yet, and the Cavaliers don't come close to getting the most out of their talent. Compare James's supporting cast with Bryant's and ask which team should be superior.

 

[LakeShowMan]

like what? Big game heroics? Wade's been there done that. Shooting percentage? Yeah, Wade's much better there as well. Assists? Yeah, Wade's got him beat there also. Steals? Oh, Wade's got him beat there also. Leadership? Come on now.

I guess that leaves you with 3 point shooting, FT% and rebounding.

I'd pretty much take Wade at this point over Kobe as well. Again, the kid took a Miami franchise in dire straights and as a rookie, led them to the 2nd round of the playoffs when the East actually was somewhat tough with a 61 win Pacer team and the eventual NBA Champion Pistons.

bottom line, until Kobe actually proves his worth as anything other than the greatest second banana of all time (which he assuredly was with Shaq), how is he really doing anything different than what Gilbert Arenas has been doing the last two years?

Come on cheesebeef, do you really think that Miami wins that championship without the ridiculously one-sided foul calls? They were getting blown out of the water until the refs started sending Wade to the line 24 times a game.

Plus, I like Wade, but the only thing he does better than Kobe is get into the lane on a consistent basis and shot more more FTs per game. I'd say Wade may be a better playmaker, but also plays in an offense where he plays a 2 man game with Shaq or takes it to the rim and tries to score or kicks it out. That is much more conducive to getting assists. The triangle is a lot more passing, cutting and spacing and never produces high single player assists rates.

Kobe has a much more varied offensive attack than Dwayne. Is a much better outside shooter. Is a much better defender.

Let me ask you this, and I hope you can answer me honestly. If we switched Kobe and D-Wade, which team would be more improved?

 

[Covert Rain]

Come on cheesebeef, do you really think that Miami wins that championship without the ridiculously one-sided foul calls? They were getting blown out of the water until the refs started sending Wade to the line 24 times a game.

I know I do. First off there were alot of bad calls all they way around. Second, Dallas became incredibly soft once the game got physical. That has been the Dallas MO for the longest time. Dallas didn't lose that series because of refs. They lost that game because they were soft in the paint. Do you think it's coincidence that everytime we play Dallas we own them in the paint even if they get more boards?

Let me ask you this, and I hope you can answer me honestly. If we switched Kobe and D-Wade, which team would be more improved?

That's a loaded question for anybody to ask. Has Kobe played in any other system but the triangle? What if Wade is actually being hampered by the system he is in? Case and point....Nash. Nash was considered good in the Dallas system. However, his numbers have improved every single year under the Suns system. I don't think anybody predicted Nash would get better under another system. You just don't know.

There would be no way to know the answer to that until you could see each guy in the other systems with that personel. I like Wade as a better team guy then Kobe but that's just me. I would take either one on my team.

 

[D-Dogg]

Has Kobe played in any other system but the triangle?

yes, for 4 years until Phillip arrived.

 

[Covert Rain]

yes, for 4 years until Phillip arrived.

OK, so how were his numbers then? The same? Better?

 

[Cheesebeef]

He half asses it quite often when I watch. What the hell was that in the Cavs/Heat game a few weeks ago where he has 11 seconds, dribbles around and takes an off-balance, fallaway three off one foot, 3 feet behind the 3 point line? That's a bs shot, especially in a tie game when all you need is one point to win. They lost in OT, btw. Get to the rack, or get a good shot. He does that kind of stuff a lot and he also doesn't try to improve on D.

He's an immense physical talent but I just don't see any hunger there yet. Maybe he'll get it, but when he is taking garbage like that in an important game when he needs 1 point to win, it doesn't tell me a lot.

right, we've NEVER seen Kobe take that kind of horrific shot. Give me a break here D-Dog. Especially never one when he was only 23. Take off the Bryant-Colored glasses.

 

[elindholm]

...and the Lakers with Kobe, and the Mavericks with Nowitzki. In fact, I believe most of the GOAT and all-history-team candidates spent the entire primes of their careers with the teams that drafted them.

Yes, most, but prominent counterexamples are easy to find: Abdul-Jabbar, Moses Malone, O'Neal, Barkley. Among current (or recent) franchise-level "building blocks," you have McGrady, Kidd, and Brand, along with second-tier arguables like Arenas, Carter, Joe Johnson, or Boozer.

 

[LakeShowMan]

OK, so how were his numbers then? The same? Better?

It was actually only 3 years. The first two he wasn't a starter. In the third, he averaged 19.9 pts, 5.8 rebs, and 3.8 assists. That was the strike shortened season and he played a lot at the three as Nick Van Exel was the main ballhandler and Eddie Jones played the 2 guard.

The next season Phil and the triangle offense came. So it really is hard to compare.

In Phil's one year hiatus, Kobe played under Rudy Tomjanovich's horrible iso offense half the year, and then back under a modified triangle (interim coach Frank Hamblen) the other half. That year he averaged 27.6 pts, 5.9 reb, and 6.0 assists.