Latest on Holliday according to Clayton

Krangodnzr · Mar 31, 2003

March 31, 2003
Holliday to meet with Chiefs
Packers defensive end Vonnie Holliday will visit the Chiefs on Tuesday and then start to make a decision about his future. He hasn't heard much from the Seahawks lately and he isn't sure that the Eagles will bid for him, so Holliday is going to try to make a choice between the Chiefs and the Cardinals. The Cardinals have held an offer to Holliday that will pay him more than $4 million a year. It's unlikely that the Packers will have the room to stay competitive trying to keep Holliday.

JeffGollin · Mar 31, 2003

Packers defensive end Vonnie Holliday will visit the Chiefs on Tuesday and then start to make a decision about his future
The Official Holliday "Death Watch" should, therefore, commence on or about Noon tomorrow (EST).

Cardinals.Ken · Mar 31, 2003

I personally believe it is time from the Cardinals to pull the offer for Holliday off the table! I don't believe he is worth overpaying by that much! We'd be lucky to get 6-10 games a year from him...just my opinion...

kerouac9 · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
I personally believe it is time from the Cardinals to pull the offer for Holliday off the table! I don't believe he is worth overpaying by that much! We'd be lucky to get 6-10 games a year from him...just my opinion...

I don't know. If the offer's for more than $4.5 with a $2 mil signing bonus, than you should pull it. I'm not sure what the average salary is for a vet DE (not rookies, since they make less money in comparison to starters who've played out their rookie deals), but I'm sure it's in that ballpark, and you're paying the going rate for a player that doesn't want to be there anyway. Would I perfer a deal like what Sam Adams was forced to take last year in Oak-town? Yeah, but I think Holliday will get far more than the vet minimum even if he waits until after the draft.

I say give Holliday another week, and if he can't bring himself to pull the trigger, pull the offer.

DRVNFAST · Mar 31, 2003

While I highly doubt that the Chiefs would offer more than we did, I still can't see him coming here after he has bounced around the NFL looking for ANYTHING that is not in AZ. Why did we offer so much to him and just leave it out on a plate for him to think about? Aren't there other free agent we could have used this money on? ie. Martay

Shane · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by DRVNFAST
Aren't there other free agent we could have used this money on? ie. Martay

Screw Martay we offered him more than double than the league minimum and like a 3 year contact with a nice signing bonus and he still refused to take a one year league minimum deal?

He obviously did not want to be here!

FrontRow · Mar 31, 2003

I say pull the offer. If he was to be a part of the synergy that is occuring here, he would have signed by now. Seems like too much of a me guy to me.

Draft defense.

ds512az · Mar 31, 2003

Martay thought he was worth much more.

So good riddince(sp?). Go take your one year deal, play special teams, and see what kind of big payday you'll get after that.

Don't let the door hit you in the arse.

JeffGollin · Mar 31, 2003

I say pull the offer.
Only if we can spend the balance of our cap budget on a huge party - including air fare for Jersey Girl and me.

Why pull the offer? Nothing has changed in the past 3 weeks. Holliday said he'd wait til after the League meetings and then pay KC a visit. So here we are today.

You can't blame a guy for setting a goal and exhausting all options before accepting reality and lowering his sights. That's all Holliday is doing.

Here's a challenge - We have X dollars ($16 million?) of non-rookie cap money left. How do you propose we spend it? If not on Holliday, for whom?

Math Aid - We know now that Emmitt is costing us a $3.5 mil cap hit, and Holliday was supposedly offered $4 mil a year. Seems to me we can afford 3 or 4 more fairly high priced players under that budget and at these prices.

My point - We've set the price and have the money. Unless Holliday is a total stiff and a lockerroom poison, leave the offer on the table. It can't hurt.

Goldfield · Mar 31, 2003

I agree, he is exploring all his options.

We can afford him and it isnt like we DONT need him, cuz we do...

so far away · Mar 31, 2003

No need to hate him yet, not until he officially turns us down, and I don't think he will. He'll be signed by the end of the week.

Cardinals.Ken · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by BEERZ
I agree, he is exploring all his options.

We can afford him and it isnt like we DONT need him, cuz we do...

For me, it all boils down to this:

Is Vonnie Holliday REALLY that good?

I just don't see him as the kind of player you can gameplan around (ie. a "true" defensive force). Maybe I haven't seen enough gamefilm on him. The Cardinals seem to think he is worth overpaying him $1-2 million a year (in my opinion at least).

Time will tell...

Red Air Force · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
For me, it all boils down to this:

Is Vonnie Holliday REALLY that good?

A better question would be- Is Vonnie Holliday better than what we currently have?

I think the answer to that is yes.

Krangodnzr · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
A better question would be- Is Vonnie Holliday better than what we currently have?

I think the answer to that is yes.

An even better questiong would be: Is Vonnie significantly better than what we currently have?

The answer is definitely yes!

Cardinals.Ken · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
A better question would be- Is Vonnie Holliday better than what we currently have?

I think the answer to that is yes.

But at $5 million a year?!?!?
($4 million signing bonus, $4 million a year for four years)

Just to get a player that is better than Wakefield?
(I'll back KVB up against this Slap-Nut anytime!)

Maybe I'm being a little hard-headed here, but come on! If the Cardinals are just signing someone because he's the best player in a weak market position in free agency this year, just sign him to a one or two year deal so that that money will be available sooner for someone who really deserves it...

Krangodnzr · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
But at $5 million a year?!?!?
($4 million signing bonus, $4 million a year for four years)

Just to get a player that is better than Wakefield?

Maybe I'm being a little hard-headed here, but come on! If the Cardinals are just signing someone because he's the best player in a weak market position in free agency this year, just sign him to a one or two year deal so that that money will be available sooner for someone who really deserves it...

But this isn't picking the prom queen, this is winning football games.

Holliday will help us win much more than Wakefield, plain and simple. The team can easily afford him also, so money isn't an issue at all.

Cardinals.Ken · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
But this isn't picking the prom queen, this is winning football games.

Holliday will help us win much more than Wakefield, plain and simple. The team can easily afford him also, so money isn't an issue at all.

Hrumph!

That may be the case, but I still don't have to like it!

If Vonnie comes in and lights the world on fire, I'll glady eat crow (with some BBQ sauce and Johnny's Seasoning Salt)...

but mark my words (insert ominous music here) if signed, Vonnie's contract will cause a problem down the road!

Krangodnzr · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
Hrumph!

That may be the case, but I still don't have to like it!

If Vonnie comes in and lights the world on fire, I'll glady eat crow (with some BBQ sauce and Johnny's Seasoning Salt)...

but mark my words (insert ominous music here) if signed, Vonnie's contract will cause a problem down the road!

Very true!

It might, but if the contract is structured right, it won't.

red desert · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
Hrumph!

That may be the case, but I still don't have to like it!

If Vonnie comes in and lights the world on fire, I'll glady eat crow (with some BBQ sauce and Johnny's Seasoning Salt)...

but mark my words (insert ominous music here) if signed, Vonnie's contract will cause a problem down the road!

The guy is not worh 4 million a year, and just because we have it doesn't mean we have to give it away.

ajcardfan · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Very true!

It might, but if the contract is structured right, it won't.

If his signing bonus is only four mil, then it's really not too much of a problem. Let's say the worst case scenario happens, and the guy is a complete disaster and we have to cut him after one year. Well, that means 3mil of cap hit we have to absorb, but it'd actually clear a mil of cap space since his reported average is 4mil a year with salary. While three mil of dead money is not ideal, we've been much worse off than that in the past. If we cut him after June 1, then the cap hit would be 1.5mil for two seasons.

so far away · Mar 31, 2003

If we give him only a $4 mil signing bonus then I like the deal, we can use him for a couple seasons and get rid of him when we have a better alternative, that signing bonus wouldn't hurt us if we cut him. :thumbup:

Cardinals.Ken · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by red desert
The guy is not worh 4 million a year, and just because we have it doesn't mean we have to give it away.

Please welcome Red Desert, the new Voice Of Reason!

SECTION 11 · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
Please welcome Red Desert, the new Voice Of Reason!

No doubt. $4M a year for Vonnie Holliday is nuts. We'd be better off upgrading some more of our bench so we don't get slapped around in the preseason and late in the season again.

Personally, I think seeing our second and third stringers get whipped by 4 or 5 TD's in the preseason just completely sucks.

kerouac9 · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Personally, I think seeing our second and third stringers get whipped by 4 or 5 TD's in the preseason just completely sucks.

Who cares how bad we get beat in the preseason? Or how easily we win in the preseason? I don't. 3rd stringers rarely make the roster.

SECTION 11 · Mar 31, 2003

Originally posted by kerouac9
Who cares how bad we get beat in the preseason? Or how easily we win in the preseason? I don't. 3rd stringers rarely make the roster.

It totally matters.
It's the best indication of where your depth is at. That comes into play on every punt, every kickoff, and every time someone goes down. Basically about 25% of the season.
If your second teams gets completely spanked every preseason game as a yearly right-of-august, you're going to suck, in general, year in and year out. Case in point, the Cardinals.

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