Hedo is a pretty good defender at the 3 but gets pretty abused anywhere else(lack of quickness for 2s lack of strength for 4s). If he's worse than Hill defensively at the 3 it's not by much and no where near as bad as you're making it sound.
LB and TPE for Turk and Childress
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Hedo is a pretty good defender at the 3 but gets pretty abused anywhere else(lack of quickness for 2s lack of strength for 4s). If he's worse than Hill defensively at the 3 it's not by much and no where near as bad as you're making it sound.
Sunburn
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You said he couldn't play at the 3. That was wrong. He obviously can and has. That he is a below average defender at the 3 is more your exaggerated opinion than anything. He's played there pretty much his whole career and played it effectively. According to 82games.com, Toronto's opponents produced the least of any position from the SF position last year, which was the position Turk primarily played. Contrarily, he gave up more production from the PF spot when he played there. Much more, giving up 25.6 points/48 minutes at the 4 while just 18.6 points/48 at the 3. Let me drive that home, he's much worse at guarding the 4 spot than the 3 spot, which actually he's pretty effective at. According to 82games.com, Turk defended the 3 spot better than Grant Hill did last year, giving up just 18.6 points/48 minutes to Grant Hill's 21.2 points/48. So I'm pretty sure we can do away with the conception that he does not play defense at the 3 effectively.
No. If you read my post, the idea was to trade Jrich for Al Jefferson, to give us the inside presence we so desperately need and effectively round out our team.
So you're arguing against size? It seems to me that you're arguing just to argue at this point.
Why not? We need a dominant post big and Minny is actively shopping Jefferson with a need for a 2. Salaries match. I think the deal is tailor-made for both clubs.
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Chaplin
Better off silent
Only problem is this is strictly an internet rumor and has not even been mentioned by any reputable news source or reporter.
Are you assuming we are getting Jefferson at the 4? If not, it really is that bad. Look at his #'s playing PF vs SF. HUGE difference on defense. He comes in at giving up 25.7 points playing PF PER 48. That was one of the worst in the league last year.
That's why this is sooo screwy. His best position defensively is SF. He won't play that on this team unless this team is planning more moves.
That is possible.
I caught that later then posted again. Also, Grant Hill was put on the other teams best scorer alot last season regardless of what position the other player was playing. If your going to sit here and say that Turk is a better defender then Hill....your the first.
Are you saying the Suns don't have glaring examples of big men who don't rebound or bang in the paint? My point is that size doesn't equal toughness as you eluded to referencing the Lakers.
Then again, you were assuming that we would have Lopez and Jefferson. I was saying strictly from what we have today.
Lopez/Turk/Hill - not exactly a tough lineup as is. That's why I hope something else happens.
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Sunburn
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Never said it was Chap, but this is the idea that's been brought up here so that's why I've been discussing it.
Sunburn
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You've been the one arguing against him being able to play at the 3. You originally implied he'd be better off at the 4. Now, you're saying he can't play 4 and his best position is 3. You're flip flopping now. Which one is it?
I never said that now did I. 82games.com did. I said that we can dispel your notion that Turkoglu does not play effective defense at the 3. He does.
Putting words in my mouth again. I said we would have the ability to bully the bullies. With the size at positions 5 through 2 being 7', 6'10", 6'10", and 6'8", we would. Are you saying Al Jefferson is comparable to a big man that won't rebound or bang in the paint?
I was just responding you your statement that he has been below average defensively at the 3 throughout his career. He has been solid to good defensively at the 3. I disagree with your notion that he is too slow to play the 3 and that he is significantly if at all inferior to Hill defending that position.
He's been pretty much a pure SF throughout his entire career. If he plays PF which you seem to imply with your "too slow" comment then he'll be playing out of position and will really struggle.
Chaplin
Better off silent
And I agree with you, it would be a very beneficial deal for both sides. But we also need to take it for what it is--a rumor.
Sunburn
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You've amended your post so allow me to comment on your amendment.
It doesn't but lack of size equals softness. There's no way around it. They could be the toughest bunch of 6' 7" sons of b*tches around, but they're going to get trucked by today's NBA bigs. Jefferson is a tough player. If you integrate what I've been saying into your posts, I think you could agree that Jefferson would add toughness.
I wasn't. If you're going to begin an argument with me, at least argue with what I've been discussing. Otherwise, you're arguing with yourself and I have nothing to add.
Agreed. That's why I've been talking about Jefferson.
It doesn't but lack of size equals softness. There's no way around it. They could be the toughest bunch of 6' 7" sons of b*tches around, but they're going to get trucked by today's NBA bigs. Jefferson is a tough player. If you integrate what I've been saying into your posts, I think you could agree that Jefferson would add toughness.
I wasn't. If you're going to begin an argument with me, at least argue with what I've been discussing. Otherwise, you're arguing with yourself and I have nothing to add.
Agreed. That's why I've been talking about Jefferson.
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I'm not sure if you're referring to our proposed trade or Jefferson's availability when you say it's an internet rumor. I've seen nothing that suggests we're trying to make this deal but I have heard Kahn acknowledge that they are exploring the possibility of moving Jefferson.
Steve
Sunburn
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Yes, we all know it's speculative Chap. I'm not going to add to every post I make on this subject that the deal is speculative. Likewise, I am not going to limit my discussion of it because espn.com doesn't have an article up.
elindholm
edited for content
Everyone knows Jefferson is on the block. That's not a rumor at all. The Suns, if they're smart, recognize that they have a need at PF. So it only makes sense that they should at least be considering making an offer for him. That's all.
jandaman
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Suns should make a move for J-Smoove!
At this rate and by the way the team is structured.... Josh Smith would have an open lane for a dunk almost every play.
Some here and at RealGM have mentioned Al Jefferson.
He can work, depending on his acceptance of his role, pretty much he'd be ask to be a finisher and not a isolation post player... and oh... clean up the boards too.
But other "possible" players...
Biedrins (Warriors)
Gibson + 2011 first pick (Bulls)
Josh Smith (Hawks)
Murphy (Pacers)
Okafor (Hornets)
Remember, the Suns just need a finisher inside not an isolation player... with 3-4 3pt shooters on the court, the interior is open for penetration by Nash, which then frees up Lopez and the PF to finish within the 3-4 feet range....
If no other PF is brought in... I expect Warrick to get about 3 dunks a game as he will have many easy looks inside.... Lopez will probably get 3 dunks a game too.
Will Hawks accept J.Rich for Josh Smith?
They can play Johson at PG/SF and have J.Rich be the finisher, spot shooter... PLUS he expires... with the contract they just gave Johnson, they may need to retool for a more fitting SF/PF... and not to mention cap room for Al Horford!
At this rate and by the way the team is structured.... Josh Smith would have an open lane for a dunk almost every play.
Some here and at RealGM have mentioned Al Jefferson.
He can work, depending on his acceptance of his role, pretty much he'd be ask to be a finisher and not a isolation post player... and oh... clean up the boards too.
But other "possible" players...
Biedrins (Warriors)
Gibson + 2011 first pick (Bulls)
Josh Smith (Hawks)
Murphy (Pacers)
Okafor (Hornets)
Remember, the Suns just need a finisher inside not an isolation player... with 3-4 3pt shooters on the court, the interior is open for penetration by Nash, which then frees up Lopez and the PF to finish within the 3-4 feet range....
If no other PF is brought in... I expect Warrick to get about 3 dunks a game as he will have many easy looks inside.... Lopez will probably get 3 dunks a game too.
Will Hawks accept J.Rich for Josh Smith?
They can play Johson at PG/SF and have J.Rich be the finisher, spot shooter... PLUS he expires... with the contract they just gave Johnson, they may need to retool for a more fitting SF/PF... and not to mention cap room for Al Horford!
ASUCHRIS
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You completely miss the point as usual. Go back and read previous posts, I'm not going to repeat myself.
Further, you claim I called these players scrubs. Again, I never said that, hence, putting words in my mouth.
Uninformed? Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment.
Reportedly Dallas is moving closer to a deal for Jefferson, but Utah is also a possibility. From the reports it seems like the TWolves are looking for a salary dump and don't want to take on salary. Utah has a TPE from the Boozer trade large enough to accommodate Jefferson's salary, so the TWolves wouldn't have to take back any players.
The Suns, of course, had a TPE large enough to trade for Jefferson straight up. This is something we've talked about before the free agent period begun, the idea of replacing Amare with Jefferson if we can get a TPE. Well, we did get a TPE, but we've used enough of it on Warrick and Childress that Jefferson is no longer an option. If the TWolves want to save as much money as possible, then clearly Dallas (non-guaranteed Dampier) and Utah especially have the advantage now.
The Suns, of course, had a TPE large enough to trade for Jefferson straight up. This is something we've talked about before the free agent period begun, the idea of replacing Amare with Jefferson if we can get a TPE. Well, we did get a TPE, but we've used enough of it on Warrick and Childress that Jefferson is no longer an option. If the TWolves want to save as much money as possible, then clearly Dallas (non-guaranteed Dampier) and Utah especially have the advantage now.
OldDirtMcGirt
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I don't think that the Hawks will give Smith away for just J-Rich. That would be fantastic if it happened, but I think that the Hawks would be losing too much in that trade. Biedrins is a great idea though. He's exactly what this team needs: ability to clean-up/finish and suck of rebounds. If we got either of Jefferson/Smith/Biedrins, we'd be a terrific rebounding team, and able to hold our own defensively.
Chaplin
Better off silent
OF COURSE Jefferson is on the block, but anything talking about the Suns and him is pure rumor--maybe even started by this board.
It's one thing to speculate, but right now, pretty much every post is about this rumor, so it's easy to get carried away.
devilalum
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Whenever you trade small for big you usually get a lesser quality player The Suns have done this several times and none of the bigs have really panned out.
joshstmarie
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No, I didnt miss any point.
Further, I was responding to other people that had responded to my post because you werent the only one. Yes I quoted you but I specifically said "YOU GUYS" because I knew that you would say I was trying to put words in your mouth.
Bravo. That was clever.
Folster
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A Minnesota fan mentioned that Richardson and Clark for Jefferson and Ellington swap would be palatable.
Nash, Dragic
Childress, Ellington
Turkoglu, Hill, Dudley
Jefferson, Warrick
Lopez, Frye
Giving up on Clark so early would be diappointing, but getting Jefferson would quickly make us forget about him. Ellington would give us a back-up shooting guard that we would definitely need after losing Richardson and Barbosa. He has good college pedigree and shot just under 40% from beyond the arc his rookie season. I could even be talked into throwing in a loosely protected first rounder if that's what it took to get the deal done and keep him away from Dallas and Utah.
Nash, Dragic
Childress, Ellington
Turkoglu, Hill, Dudley
Jefferson, Warrick
Lopez, Frye
Giving up on Clark so early would be diappointing, but getting Jefferson would quickly make us forget about him. Ellington would give us a back-up shooting guard that we would definitely need after losing Richardson and Barbosa. He has good college pedigree and shot just under 40% from beyond the arc his rookie season. I could even be talked into throwing in a loosely protected first rounder if that's what it took to get the deal done and keep him away from Dallas and Utah.
Sunburn
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Sonofa*&^%
I amended my statement. I was against him playing the 3 on this team as the roster stands. Replacing Hill for Turk doesn't help us defensively IMO. However, I now understand you were saying we would have Jefferson in your scenario.
He would be better off playing the 4 offensively since we play small ball so much. However, from a defense perspective he is definitely worse at the 4. It's a catch 22 with the roster we have on hand. He will not play SF on this team so my comments are based on the roster at hand but now I understand what you were saying.
My comments were not related to Jefferson at all. He would be a welcome addition. However, the notion that a taller lineup means you have the ability to bully the bullies as you say is simply not true. There are a ton of tall soft players in the NBA and many have ended up in Phoenix for some reason.
Just like I disagree the being tall equals toughness I dispute the notion that lack of equals softness. I have seen undersized players in the league be much tougher then their taller counterparts. Is that always the case? No. The reverse is true in both scenarios.
I don't make a determination on how soft or tough a player is until I see him play.
I do agree with you on Jefferson and I am a fan. I just not a fan of the other bigs on these team (although Lopez has potential and was a surprise).
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Sunburn
ASFN Lifer
Done and done.
I am actually a bit relieved. I really don't want Jefferson and had hoped that the Phoenix Suns didn't want him either. He is a decent low post player on offense. He's not very good at the pick and roll, he has no jumpshot, and he is a pretty poor defender from what I've seen. On top of that he's had injury problems and he is slow. I've never agreed with the idea that the Phoenix Suns need five players running up and down the court all game long, but I don't like Jefferson for this team.
I actually think on defense we are going to see an awful lot of zone from the Phoenix Suns this season. I may have said this before in this thread, but I'll bet we play more zone than any team since the rule changes. I think we'll be able to defend decently until it's time to grab a rebound. Unless there are some more changes it looks to me like we'll be giving up a lot on the boards and not getting to the free-throw line a whole lot. We may set a record for three-pointers made though.
Joe
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