LB and TPE for Turk and Childress

[Sunburn]

I amended my statement. I was against him playing the 3 on this team as the roster stands. Replacing Hill for Turk doesn't help us defensively IMO. However, I now understand you were saying we would have Jefferson in your scenario.

He would be better off playing the 4 offensively since we play small ball so much. However, from a defense perspective he is definitely worse at the 4. It's a catch 22 with the roster we have on hand. He will not play SF on this team so my comments are based on the roster at hand but now I understand what you were saying.


My comments were not related to Jefferson at all. He would be a welcome addition. However, the notion that a taller lineup means you have the ability to bully the bullies as you say is simply not true. There are a ton of tall soft players in the NBA and many have ended up in Phoenix for some reason.

Daren at this point, you're making some of the same arguments that you already have. Go back and revisit my earlier rebuttals. As for the taller line-up, there are exceptions to every rule, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Generally speaking, a player with a size advantage will physically dominate a smaller player. It's basic physics. A 5 - 2 line-up of sizes 7', 6'10', 6'10', and 6'8" will have a size advantage over just about any team in the league.

 

[Bufalay]

It seems like this team is set up to play lots of zone and full-court press.

 

[SunsTzu]

I actually think on defense we are going to see an awful lot of zone from the Phoenix Suns this season. I may have said this before in this thread, but I'll bet we play more zone than any team since the rule changes. I think we'll be able to defend decently until it's time to grab a rebound. Unless there are some more changes it looks to me like we'll be giving up a lot on the boards and not getting to the free-throw line a whole lot. We may set a record for three-pointers made though.

Pretty much exactly how I see it playing out if the Suns don't add a real PF.

I agree with you for the most part on Jefferson too. I just felt that he was the only PF available that could make the team as good or better than they were last year.

Horford is still my ideal PF just seems extremely unlikely.

 

[cly2tw]

Jefferson, Brand, Boozer, Randolph have all missed more games due to injury than Amare has, I believe. If healthy, he'd be perfect for Jazz that allows for more playing time for the other PF, whatshisname. He might be good for Suns too, but we can't beat Jazz's offer with no salary going to Wolves.

 

[Covert Rain]

As for the taller line-up, there are exceptions to every rule, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Generally speaking, a player with a size advantage will physically dominate a smaller player. It's basic physics. A 5 - 2 line-up of sizes 7', 6'10', 6'10', and 6'8" will have a size advantage over just about any team in the league.

I could probably name a ton of soft tall players that were neither "dominate" or considered "tough". It's much more common then your insinuating in the NBA. Guys come through all kinds of systems and some players are just used to playing finesses styles versus bang it down low. Not to mention some guys just are not mentally built to play tough style of basketball.

So yes they will have a size advantage for sure. However, that doesn't mean their any good at rebounding, playing defense or playing down low or want to bang with the other bigs. All the physics in the world doesn't account for that.

We could go back and forth but I will just say again that I never judge a players toughness on his physical size.....it's been proven wrong time and time again that is not the be all end all in the NBA.

So...now that Jefferson appears to be out of the question....who else can we sign and trade for?

 

[Sunburn]

Just like I disagree the being tall equals toughness I dispute the notion that lack of equals softness. I have seen undersized players in the league be much tougher then their taller counterparts. Is that always the case? No. The reverse is true in both scenarios.

I don't make a determination on how soft or tough a player is until I see him play.

I do agree with you on Jefferson and I am a fan. I just not a fan of the other bigs on these team (although Lopez has potential and was a surprise).

I'm not saying an undersized player can't be tough. He can be. However, against physical NBA frontcourts, he is going to get trucked, and there is nothing he can do about it. It's just simple physics. Case and point, Lou Amundson against the Lakers' frontline this postseason. Lou is tough as nails but he just did not have the size to compete against the Lakers' bigs. Meanwhile, Channing Frye, who is widely considered the epitome of soft, seemed to do much better against them thanks to his larger frame. Once again, there are exceptions to every rule, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Generally speaking, when it comes to the NBA, larger is better.

 

[cly2tw]

I like our moves. My only concern is how Turkoglu and Nash will play together, since Turk needs the ball in his hands to be effective similar to Nash. I fear Turk might get lost. However, it does provide us with some real nice depth. I love Childress. I think getting Al Jefferson would make this a complete team. That would absolutely blow me away with the efficiency shown in this team transformation. I would swallow my Sarver criticizing tongue for awhile.

See my signature.

I believe Nash would welcome additional help of great ballhandling from Turk. Imagine game 6 vs. Lakers. If we had Turk, we'd have another option instead of going repeatedly to Amare despite his fruitless attacks on the rim. Over the whole season, Nash would not have worn down as he did also.

To think it, if Bosh were man enough and had told Raps of his intention then, we might have gotten Turk for LB before the trading deadline and won a title already!

 

[Covert Rain]

Case and point, Lou Amundson against the Lakers' frontline this postseason. Lou is tough as nails but he just did not have the size to compete against the Lakers' bigs. Meanwhile, Channing Frye, who is widely considered the epitome of soft, seemed to do much better against them thanks to his larger frame. Once again, there are exceptions to every rule, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Generally speaking, when it comes to the NBA, larger is better.

Offensively or defensively? Because Frye looked no better defensively then Lou despite his size.

Offensively Frye did better because he is more gifted offensively and the Lakers were not guarding the 3 point line. Lou can't shoot those. It's not like Frye was dominating down low.

Frye is a perfect example how height doesn't mean tough. Gentry on a few occasions pulled Frye from games in the playoffs because he wasn't playing any defense. In Gentry's post game on KTAR he said that he could probably justify keeping Frye in if he is hitting shots but not when he isn't doing that or guarding anybody on the court. What was the knock on Frye before we got him? Softness.

I have watched Frye cover alot of competent big men and he simply isn't a tough player. All things being equal Frye is as soft a big man as there is in the NBA and if he had 3 more inches he will still be soft.

 

[jagu]

Frye, sigh, the softest man on the planet.

 

[Irish]

Fry is not expectially "tough" but when a player is told to play on the three point line, that's what you get. On defense, they had him out trying to stop Gasol's outside shooting which took him away from the basket. I'm not saying he is strong enough, but players are a feature of how the coach uses them.

Their is a chiicken/egg issue. A tough guy can be used differently than a finese guy, but finese is not all bad if it includes other skills.

BTW, I did not shre the wild enthusiasm for Diaw when he was up for a new contract. My problem was hit very low rebounds per minute. Even with skills beyond most other players, it was a major limitation.

 

[Sunburn]

I could probably name a ton of soft tall players that were neither "dominate" or considered "tough". It's much more common then your insinuating in the NBA. Guys come through all kinds of systems and some players are just used to playing finesses styles versus bang it down low. Not to mention some guys just are not mentally built to play tough style of basketball.

You're speaking in instances rather than generalities. Let's re-visit what I've been stating. I've been stating that a taller player has a size advantage over a smaller player. I don't think this can be argued. I've been stating that Lopez at 7', Jefferson at 6'10", Turk at 6'10", and Childress at 6'8" would give us a size advantage over just about any line-up in the league. I don't think this can be argued. I have stated that this line-up would give us the ability to bully the bullies. If you don't agree with this, fine. This is my opinion. I think you would find that at the very least we would do a lot better against physical opponents than we have previously. Physically speaking in the NBA, more size never hurts while less size always hurts, all other things being equal. I don't think this can be argued. I have stated that smaller lineups equal softness. I don't mean that being shorter means you're a wuss. That's ridiculous. I mean that smaller line-ups routinely get out-muscled by larger line-ups. It's physics. I don't think this can be argued. Sure, you can point to individual guys like Yi, but it doesn't disprove the point that small line-ups get beat up by big line-ups, hence small equals soft. I'm not saying Lou Amundson is a *****. I'm saying a bunch of 6'7" guys are going to get pushed around by a bunch of 7' guys, all other things being equal. I don't think this can be argued. So, please stop busting out the exception to the rule, this guy is tall but soft argument.

So yes they will have a size advantage for sure. However, that doesn't mean their any good at rebounding, playing defense or playing down low or want to bang with the other bigs. All the physics in the world doesn't account for that.

I never said it did. I said with Lopez at 7', Jefferson at 6'10", Turk at 6'10", and Josh Childress at 6'8" we would have a size advantage against just about any line-up in the NBA. I don't think this can be argued. With this line-up, I feel we would have the ability to bully the bullies. If you don't feel the same way, fine.

We could go back and forth but I will just say again that I never judge a players toughness on his physical size.....it's been proven wrong time and time again that is not the be all end all in the NBA.

Fine. What I said earlier was lack of size equals softness. I needed you to read between the lines a bit here, and I think you missed that. I'm not saying shorter people are wusses compared to taller people. That's ridiculous. I'm talking about a team as a whole. A smaller team is going to generally be out-rebounded and out-muscled by a bigger team. I don't think this can be argued. Muscle and rebounding are synonymous with toughness in the NBA, hence, small (line-ups) equals soft.

So...now that Jefferson appears to be out of the question....who else can we sign and trade for?

Good question.

 

[Covert Rain]

Frye, sigh, the softest man on the planet.

And there are a bunch of tall guys just like him in the NBA. Not particularly strong or tough. Too many big guys in the NBA underachieve on the boards and that why size often doesn't equal good rebounding or toughness. There is too much evidence to the contrary.

 

[Sunburn]

Offensively or defensively? Because Frye looked no better defensively then Lou despite his size.

I meant defensively. Lou was pushed around more than usual by the Lakers' big frontcourt while Frye was actually somewhat praised for displaying better than usual defense in this series, supposedly. I am not confirming this, just a submission of an example that many on this board have made. I attribute this to Frye's larger frame.

Frye is a perfect example how height doesn't mean tough. Gentry on a few occasions pulled Frye from games in the playoffs because he wasn't playing any defense. In Gentry's post game on KTAR he said that he could probably justify keeping Frye in if he is hitting shots but not when he isn't doing that or guarding anybody on the court. What was the knock on Frye before we got him? Softness.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Frye is considered the epitome of soft, yet his larger frame was an asset in this series. Against the large Laker frontcourt his size kept him from being muscled as easily as his smaller frontcourt counterparts. Lou on the other hand, a much more solid, tough defender, was more easily pushed around by the large Laker frontcourt. His size was a detriment. One that he had no control over. Physics.

I have watched Frye cover alot of competent big men and he simply isn't a tough player. All things being equal Frye is as soft a big man as there is in the NBA and if he had 3 more inches he will still be soft.

Agreed. Imagine how soft he'd be minus 3 inches.

 

[i am the bad guy]

While this trade may make us better, I'll miss Barbosa, a real Phoenix Sun

Barbosa's top ten(Link): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD5q9bf48uI

 

[AzStevenCal]

So...now that Jefferson appears to be out of the question....who else can we sign and trade for?

I'd talk to the Clips and see what it would take to get that Schortsanitis guy. If you could get him off the Oliver Miller diet he might have some real value. If nothing else he can go out there and push, hold, hit, shove or eat the Gasol's of the world.

Steve

 

[Irish]

I think short tough CAN be effective. Boozer had a playoff rebounding rate of 13.2 and his not quite 6'9". Milsap averaged 8.9 rpg in the playoffs.

IMHO, rebounding is a funtion of several things:

1) Length - rebounds are made by the hands, not the head.
2) Strngth - being able to push people areound is very important or keeping from being pushed around.
3) Hops - A short jumper has a big advantage of a taller "feet of stone" player
4) Positioning - It takes even natural rebounders a few years to know where to set up to get the rabound or when to block out.
5) Anticiapation - Great rebounds get to the ball first by anticipating where the ball will go. Rodman was tiny compare to other forwards, but he had great anticipation and averaged 16 rpg one year.
6) Hustle - Lots of balls come off the basket strangely, but whoever gets to the ball first is key.

Getting a guy like Frye to become a better rebounder is going to take getting him to focus on the task and hand. Getting stronger wouldn't hurt.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think short tough CAN be effective. Boozer had a playoff rebounding rate of 13.2 and his not quite 6'9". Milsap averaged 8.9 rpg in the playoffs.

IMHO, rebounding is a funtion of several things:

1) Length - rebounds are made by the hands, not the head.
2) Strngth - being able to push people areound is very important or keeping from being pushed around.
3) Hops - A short jumper has a big advantage of a taller "feet of stone" player
4) Positioning - It takes even natural rebounders a few years to know where to set up to get the rabound or when to block out.
5) Anticiapation - Great rebounds get to the ball first by anticipating where the ball will go. Rodman was tiny compare to other forwards, but he had great anticipation and averaged 16 rpg one year.
6) Hustle - Lots of balls come off the basket strangely, but whoever gets to the ball first is key.

Getting a guy like Frye to become a better rebounder is going to take getting him to focus on the task and hand. Getting stronger wouldn't hurt.

If that list is in order I believe desire should be number one. I guess you've kind of wrapped it up in hustle but it deserves a higher place in that list, IMO.

Steve

 

[mojorizen7]

Reportedly Dallas is moving closer to a deal for Jefferson, but Utah is also a possibility. From the reports it seems like the TWolves are looking for a salary dump and don't want to take on salary. Utah has a TPE from the Boozer trade large enough to accommodate Jefferson's salary, so the TWolves wouldn't have to take back any players.

The Suns, of course, had a TPE large enough to trade for Jefferson straight up. This is something we've talked about before the free agent period begun, the idea of replacing Amare with Jefferson if we can get a TPE. Well, we did get a TPE, but we've used enough of it on Warrick and Childress that Jefferson is no longer an option. If the TWolves want to save as much money as possible, then clearly Dallas (non-guaranteed Dampier) and Utah especially have the advantage now.

Well,Sarver refuses to blow it up so why continue to be concerned with draft picks?
This team is being re-tooled again(to win now....again), we need a PF that can play close to the basket and rebound....otherwise this team of tall,soft, skinny shooters and feisty small forwards will go nowhere when it counts past April(and if Sarver refuses to blow it up and would rather take on contract's like the Turk's,then who need's draft picks?)

WTF....Give Minnesota what they want in order to get this team the help it needs. I'm sold on AlJeff helping this team get better.

 

[Sunburn]

Well,Sarver refuses to blow it up so why continue to be concerned with draft picks?
This team is being re-tooled again(to win now....again), we need a PF that can play close to the basket and rebound....otherwise this team of tall,soft, skinny shooters and feisty small forwards will go nowhere when it counts past April(and if Sarver refuses to blow it up and would rather take on contract's like the Turk's,then who need's draft picks?)

WTF....Give Minnesota what they want in order to get this team the help it needs. I'm sold on AlJeff helping this team get better.

I really want it to happen but I fear the Utah CEO's tweet indicates the closing of this particular door. Oh well, maybe at the trading deadline

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I really want it to happen but I fear the Utah CEO's tweet indicates the closing of this particular door. Oh well, maybe at the trading deadline

We should turn our eyes to Troy Murphy, either through a trade or as a free agent next season. He's a great rebounder and a good perimeter player. Would be an ideal fit for this team, wouldn't compromise our ability to run like other more traditional post players, would spread the floor with his shooting and not interfere with Lopez down low, and allow us to hold our own on the boards.

 

[elindholm]

If that list is in order I believe desire should be number one. I guess you've kind of wrapped it up in hustle but it deserves a higher place in that list, IMO.

I thought you were better than that. "Rebounding is all about desire" is another one of those idiot TV analyst cliches. Let me tell you something, back when I played pickup ball, rebounding was my main thing, and I really wanted every board. But, wouldn't you know it, I still lost a ton of rebounds to guys who were bigger, stronger, quicker off their feet, and with better reflexes. I don't think they wanted the ball as much as I did, so what gives?

 

[Sunburn]

We should turn our eyes to Troy Murphy, either through a trade or as a free agent next season. He's a great rebounder and a good perimeter player. Would be an ideal fit for this team, wouldn't compromise our ability to run like other more traditional post players, would spread the floor with his shooting and not interfere with Lopez down low, and allow us to hold our own on the boards.

I disagree. This team doesn't need anymore perimeter players. We need an inside big. One to collapse defenses inwards to create space for our perimeter shooters. However, I like his rebounding and that his contract is expiring. He may be our best bet for this season, although, I'd like to have a discussion on target inside bigs we could potentially pick up before the deadline.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I thought you were better than that. "Rebounding is all about desire" is another one of those idiot TV analyst cliches. Let me tell you something, back when I played pickup ball, rebounding was my main thing, and I really wanted every board. But, wouldn't you know it, I still lost a ton of rebounds to guys who were bigger, stronger, quicker off their feet, and with better reflexes. I don't think they wanted the ball as much as I did, so what gives?

Being smaller, weaker, slower off your feet and with weaker reflexes, just imagine how many rebounds you would have given up if you didn't have that desire? Besides, I know what I'm talking about because I got a rebound once. Unfortunately, even in pickup games they frown on spectators coming on to the court.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

Personally, I think strength belongs at the top of list and I'd put positioning second. Guys with those two attributes not only gather in many rebounds they help their lesser teammates get them by blocking out the opponents best rebounders. Generally, speaking they can also take the pounding one gets near the basket and dish it out as well.

DeJuan Blair (Spurs) is the poster child for this kind of rebounder - he's 6'7" with no hops at all but he weighs 265 - and was in the top ten in rebounding this year, competing with TD yet. Jon Brockman (Sac) is another 6'7" guy who was 11th - he weighs in at 255.

Too bad their isn't an easily accessible file which lists players weights and heights... then I could run correlations of those against rebounds/min and see which shows up better.

 

[mojorizen7]

We should turn our eyes to Troy Murphy, either through a trade or as a free agent next season. He's a great rebounder and a good perimeter player. Would be an ideal fit for this team, wouldn't compromise our ability to run like other more traditional post players, would spread the floor with his shooting and not interfere with Lopez down low, and allow us to hold our own on the boards.

Troy Murphy would be a very good alternative.
Finished 7th in rebounding last season behind Howard,Camby,Z.Randolph,D.Lee,Boozer and Bosh.
Murphy also scored 14 ppg,with 2 assists and a steal per.
I'm not sure if we could start him though(maybe)....an excellent backup at C/PF to Lopez in the very least. Foul trouble/injury troubles to Lopez is a reality we must be prepared for unfortunately.

Indiana is currently sporting Brandon Rush and Dahntay Jones at the 2. Jones is the defensive stopper. It would be worth exploring if you're the SUNS i think.

Trading expiring contracts basically(JRich for Murphy)
...or
(JRich/E.Clark for T.Murphy/B.Rush)....the numbers do work for both hypothetical deals.

Indiana does have some decent depth up front so....