League won't Change "Hack A Shaq" rule

[dreamcastrocks]

I was just getting you back for challenging me by making me prove I read a book by asking me to send it to you.

I wasn't challenging you, I'm a cheap bastid. I wanted it for free.

 

[Mulli]

I wasn't challenging you, I'm a cheap bastid. I wanted it for free.

only kidding.

 

[cobbler]

what's the difference? it's "leveling the playing field" one way or another - one just levels up and the other levels down. still rules made to account for a single player and their individual ability.

When wilt jumped from the line, he was the only one who could. Mikan at the time was the only real big man so they widened the lane. Free throws are made by everyone. It's not like shaq doesnt have the tools to make the throws, he just doenst care. So what's next? If say DWade drives the lane everytime and gets fouled and goes to the line and consistantly misses 60%, now you change the rules on shooting fouls and give them the option to take the ball out of bounds rather that have the free throws? Where does it end?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

When wilt jumped from the line, he was the only one who could. Mikan at the time was the only real big man so they widened the lane. Free throws are made by everyone. It's not like shaq doesnt have the tools to make the throws, he just doenst care. So what's next? If say DWade drives the lane everytime and gets fouled and goes to the line and consistantly misses 60%, now you change the rules on shooting fouls and give them the option to take the ball out of bounds rather that have the free throws? Where does it end?

Again, when DWade drives to the basket, the foul will be on the ball, not away from the ball. Fouling away from the ball breaks the flow of the game.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

so does fouling on the ball - any time there is a whistle it's a break in the flow of the game

 

[cobbler]

Again, when DWade drives to the basket, the foul will be on the ball, not away from the ball. Fouling away from the ball breaks the flow of the game.

I totally agree about the flow. But for gosh sakes. Just make the throws and its a non issue. You dont think the Lakers would love if they used the tactic on kobe?

It's just nonsense that it even has to be addressed simply because shaq is too lazy or uncomitted to fix it. Heck, i can shoot 50% from the line blindfolded and in a chair. Someone making 20 mil and whos job is bball cant be bothered with improving and we have to incorporate a rule change for it? Not buying it.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

ouchie - i definitely understood what you were trying to get at - i just don't think the impact per possession is that great and it's a big reason why you wouldn't see something like this take fire

there are many changes I'd rather see first (i went into this a little on the other thread) and such a minimal impact topic like this seems to be more noise than substance to make the league better - i think potential collateral from such a rule could have longer effects than the impact of what they are trying to present

also for a professional athlete there is no way they should be getting tired at 180 FTs - as a kid I used to shoot about 100 everyday and would often play in the same day - i'm far from in shape and my arms carry on that nice scandinavian/northern italian lean and long look - far from any body building mag for sure - it would lead to no fatigue of the arms

now I know they put their bodies through a lot during the games and fatigue would add up - but in this scenario it would be mainly walking and shooting with some rebounding of misses so the extra physical impact would be light

many NBA players will take a 100+ shot shootaround the day of games to get warmed up and loose - it's really not as much as it seems - also I found it easier to establish a rythmm when shooting in large #s as opposed to the take 2 - run and run for 15 minutes then take 2 more

 

[MigratingOsprey]

as an aside - i really hate the strategy - i think it's inane and definitely prefer the motion and athleticism of basketball over clutching, holding and fouling (either off the ball or to compensate for getting beat or being out of position)

 

[dreamcastrocks]

so does fouling on the ball - any time there is a whistle it's a break in the flow of the game

Again, we can continue going circular in this argument. Why is the rule different in the last 2 minutes of every half?

I totally agree about the flow. But for gosh sakes. Just make the throws and its a non issue. You dont think the Lakers would love if they used the tactic on kobe?

It's just nonsense that it even has to be addressed simply because shaq is too lazy or uncomitted to fix it. Heck, i can shoot 50% from the line blindfolded and in a chair. Someone making 20 mil and whos job is bball cant be bothered with improving and we have to incorporate a rule change for it? Not buying it.

That's like saying, just steal the ball from Barkley so he doesn't back down for 18 seconds. Sometimes, you have to change the rules.

 

[Irish]

I'm unclear about how Shaq's wrist injury as a kid effects his shooting, but it has been brought up in the past.

From what I can tell, Shaq's biggest problem on the line comes when he doesn't bend his knees and only uses his arms and wrists. When he bends his knees he gets more arc and doesn't shoot short so much.

If anything, I'm more concerned about Skinner's free throw shooting. He can actually shoot jump shots, so I think his problem is just lack of concentration.

 

[cobbler]

That's like saying, just steal the ball from Barkley so he doesn't back down for 18 seconds. Sometimes, you have to change the rules.

Again, i hate when teams use the hack. I find it cheap and boring. I just think the onus should be put on the player to rectify it, not the league.

I also didn't agree with the Barkley rule. If you cant stop him from backing you down, get someone who can.

 

[cobbler]

I'm unclear about how Shaq's wrist injury as a kid effects his shooting, but it has been brought up in the past.

From what I can tell, Shaq's biggest problem on the line comes when he doesn't bend his knees and only uses his arms and wrists. When he bends his knees he gets more arc and doesn't shoot short so much.

If anything, I'm more concerned about Skinner's free throw shooting. He can actually shoot jump shots, so I think his problem is just lack of concentration.

Irish, I have personally (not second hand) but with my own eyes seen shaq consistenly make 75-80% from the line in practice a few times. We have all been there if you ever played ball. When your shooting 20 or 50 it's easy to get into a rythm. When your tired and winded and have only 2 shots its another story. That is not from mechanics, it's work ethic (not shaqs strong suit) and mental. His famous comments about how he will make them when they count pretty much says it all. IMO

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

there are many changes I'd rather see first (i went into this a little on the other thread) and such a minimal impact topic like this seems to be more noise than substance to make the league better - i think potential collateral from such a rule could have longer effects than the impact of what they are trying to present

wait! you raise an interesting counterargument without even realizing it! you're talking about changing a rule to make the league better - right? that's what those of us supporting the abolishment of hack-a-shaq argue . . . betterment of the game, from a pure hoops standpoint and from an aesthetic standpoint. so what's the counter? what is the potential collateral damage to the game if the hack-a-shaq technique is outlawed? how does it inhibit or make the game worse? if the only outcome of the rule is to create better flow and take away an admittedly repugnant tactic of opposing coaches, why not impose it to better the game? what is this potential collateral damage to the game of which you speak?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

as an aside - i really hate the strategy - i think it's inane and definitely prefer the motion and athleticism of basketball over clutching, holding and fouling (either off the ball or to compensate for getting beat or being out of position)

so i'll reiterate . . . if you hate it, and it muddies the game, and there is no collateral damage to the game by outlawing it, why not make, what seems to be, a win-win rule for the league?

 

[MigratingOsprey]

i don't even think it was worth the time for them to discuss - with limited time there are so many other things that they could of discussed

potential problems I see are making it "intentional off the ball fouls" - to me all that would happen is players still foul off the ball and do it to look like the flow of play

or another issue would be off the ball fouls that may be done with a purpose, but that purpose isn't to put someone on the line - kind of a foul to give situation

i see all that being more complicated and there being more gray area built in to solve an issue that really isn't there - not to mention the time and energy dedicated to it when they could focus on other issues as well (which the NBA has plenty)

 

[Andrew]

It's a bad rule in the first place, it shouldn't have even existed.

 

[Russ Smith]

Irish, I have personally (not second hand) but with my own eyes seen shaq consistenly make 75-80% from the line in practice a few times. We have all been there if you ever played ball. When your shooting 20 or 50 it's easy to get into a rythm. When your tired and winded and have only 2 shots its another story. That is not from mechanics, it's work ethic (not shaqs strong suit) and mental. His famous comments about how he will make them when they count pretty much says it all. IMO

I'd actually love to see it because I've heard people say that so many times but my experience is practicing the same bad form over and over is not going to make you a good shooter.

I do agree taking 50 shots in a row you can get into a flow that you can't in a game. But I also know that Tim Kawakami once wrote that when he was with the LA Times he got sick of hearing the claim that Shaq made 80% in practice because he said I have been to practice and he's not even close to 80% and his teammates say the same thing. The coaches just say that because they are trying to be positive, they don't want to say look he just can't make freethrows.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

It's a bad rule in the first place, it shouldn't have even existed.

so you want to get rid of the bonus/penalty for team fouls?

 

[Russ Smith]

wait! you raise an interesting counterargument without even realizing it! you're talking about changing a rule to make the league better - right? that's what those of us supporting the abolishment of hack-a-shaq argue . . . betterment of the game, from a pure hoops standpoint and from an aesthetic standpoint. so what's the counter? what is the potential collateral damage to the game if the hack-a-shaq technique is outlawed? how does it inhibit or make the game worse? if the only outcome of the rule is to create better flow and take away an admittedly repugnant tactic of opposing coaches, why not impose it to better the game? what is this potential collateral damage to the game of which you speak?

Maybe they can make the ruling so it's like a technical. then you foul Shaq off the ball, and Phoenix has the option of sending Nash up there to shoot for him.

it could be a team technical not an individual.

My argument is there's other situations that can be argued against too. For example teams that intentionally foul late in the quarter because they have a foul to give and want to slow the offensive team. That slows the flow of the game too, it's a blatantly intentional foul and they're going out of their way to do it before a guy is looking to shoot to make sure it's a non shooting foul. It's a strategy that virtually every teamin the NBA does.

Or the intentional foul late in the game to prevent the other team from shooting a 3. Again they're doing it as a strategy to stop you from getting off a 3 attempt, it's not a normal basketball move it's strictly strategy.

For me in the end if Shaq could make a damn free throw teams wouldn't do it.

 

[Andrew]

so you want to get rid of the bonus/penalty for team fouls?

No, I just think fouling a player without the ball is stupid...

 

[joshstmarie]

No, I just think fouling a player without the ball is stupid...

maybe you should hop off shaqs wiener for a bit and show some objectivity?

i dont like that hack a shaq rule AT ALL.

BUT

why should the league change a rule for one player?

 

[MigratingOsprey]

No, I just think fouling a player without the ball is stupid...

OK - was just curious as to why you stated there should of never of been a rule there in the first place

 

[Russ Smith]

No, I just think fouling a player without the ball is stupid...

So would a moving screen be treated the same way?

 

[cobbler]

Maybe they can make the ruling so it's like a technical. then you foul Shaq off the ball, and Phoenix has the option of sending Nash up there to shoot for him.

it could be a team technical not an individual.

My argument is there's other situations that can be argued against too. For example teams that intentionally foul late in the quarter because they have a foul to give and want to slow the offensive team. That slows the flow of the game too, it's a blatantly intentional foul and they're going out of their way to do it before a guy is looking to shoot to make sure it's a non shooting foul. It's a strategy that virtually every teamin the NBA does.

Or the intentional foul late in the game to prevent the other team from shooting a 3. Again they're doing it as a strategy to stop you from getting off a 3 attempt, it's not a normal basketball move it's strictly strategy.

For me in the end if Shaq could make a damn free throw teams wouldn't do it.

Great observations. I never thought of those and your correct. Where do we draw the line?

 

[cobbler]

I'd actually love to see it because I've heard people say that so many times but my experience is practicing the same bad form over and over is not going to make you a good shooter.

I do agree taking 50 shots in a row you can get into a flow that you can't in a game. But I also know that Tim Kawakami once wrote that when he was with the LA Times he got sick of hearing the claim that Shaq made 80% in practice because he said I have been to practice and he's not even close to 80% and his teammates say the same thing. The coaches just say that because they are trying to be positive, they don't want to say look he just can't make freethrows.

I'm sure he doesnt consistantly shoot a high % in practice. But i did personally on several occasions see him do so. And we all have seen him do so in games from time to time and get the "see, when they count" garbage. I just dont buy the large hands or childhood injury excuse. I think the fact that he has been offered help on several occasions (the rick barry one being the most well known) and turned it down says a lot too.

So lets bail him out and change a rule.....

NOT!