Legal Tampering period thread and Free agency 2021.

[juza76]

He asked me which position I felt it was better to fill in the 1st round. I explained that in this particular situation, I would place RB as the priority, because of where we are, what the team needs are, and the needs of other teams. That has nothing to do with Conner. With Conner, I have given up hope or any thought of drafting an RB high.

Obviously, today the RB room is better than the CB room. It lacks high end talent and instead has two guys who are just whatever, but the CB room only has two guys that are whatever and still needs a starter.


An RB touches the ball more often than any position on the field besides QB or center. No other position on the field can make up for missing or poor QB play, besides kick returners, I guess. Everything else funnels through the QB.

Like it or not, you actually have to have some talent to play the position, otherwise you and I would be NFL RBs, not participants on an ornithology enthusiast bulletin board.

Take a rest Solar7, we got your opinion, and we know u basically remain faithful to your initial thoughts, and nothing (words, charts, numbers, sketches) can change that

 

[Solar7]

Take a rest Solar7, we got your opinion, and we know u basically remain faithful to your initial thoughts, and nothing (words, charts, numbers, sketches) can change that

I'm happy to change my mind. But people pointing out that 3rd & 4th round running backs have been successful isn't doing anyone any favors when we don't have a 3rd or 4th round pick.

It'd be like me telling you I need to go get a checkup for a pain I have in my abdomen but I can't afford it so it has to wait until I get a job, and you telling me health care is free in Italy. These are unrelated things.

 

[BritCard]

He asked me which position I felt it was better to fill in the 1st round. I explained that in this particular situation, I would place RB as the priority, because of where we are, what the team needs are, and the needs of other teams. That has nothing to do with Conner. With Conner, I have given up hope or any thought of drafting an RB high.

Obviously, today the RB room is better than the CB room. It lacks high end talent and instead has two guys who are just whatever, but the CB room only has two guys that are whatever and still needs a starter.


An RB touches the ball more often than any position on the field besides QB or center. No other position on the field can make up for missing or poor QB play, besides kick returners, I guess. Everything else funnels through the QB.

Like it or not, you actually have to have some talent to play the position, otherwise you and I would be NFL RBs, not participants on an ornithology enthusiast bulletin board.

Of course you need talent, Conner and Edmonds have talent.

I said they don't need to be elite. No position in football is as reliant on other players making them look good as RB.

Look at Conner when the Steelers had a good OL vs when he didn't.

Look at Zeke last year behind that trash O line vs the elite one he had before.

You can even see it in Christian McCaffrey's stats. Rookie year 3.7 YPC

Then he gets used to the scheme and the coaches adjust to suit his game. 5 YPC and 4.8 YPC the following 2 years. Then last year, a new coach and new scheme. The O line isn't great. Only 3.8 YPC on 60 carries.

Or come at it the other way. Ronald Jones 1.9 and 4.2 YPA his first 2 years. They get a good O line and blocking TE's and year 3 he's all the way up to 5.1.

Or let's take your own division RB rankings where you had Mostert as the 2nd best in the division I think. Mostert is a 29 year journeyman RB who's never had more than 772 yards and had 2 rushes for 4 other teams before Shanny got him. Now he averages over 5 yards per because he's in a well designed system with a good O line.

It doesn't matter how much they touch the ball. The truth a successful run play is far more reliant on everyone doing their job and the scheme than the RB being elite.

That's why it's the least valuable position in football.

 

[Ronin]

Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
14m


#Cowboys free agent pass-rusher Aldon Smith is visiting the #Seahawks today, per me and @MikeGarafolo
. A possible low-risk, high-reward addition for Seattle if all checks out. He had 50 QB pressures and 5 sacks last year.

 

[BritCard]

Of course you need talent, Conner and Edmonds have talent.

I said they don't need to be elite. No position in football is as reliant on other players making them look good as RB.

Look at Conner when the Steelers had a good OL vs when he didn't.

Look at Zeke last year behind that trash O line vs the elite one he had before.

You can even see it in Christian McCaffrey's stats. Rookie year 3.7 YPC

Then he gets used to the scheme and the coaches adjust to suit his game. 5 YPC and 4.8 YPC the following 2 years. Then last year, a new coach and new scheme. The O line isn't great. Only 3.8 YPC on 60 carries.

Or come at it the other way. Ronald Jones 1.9 and 4.2 YPA his first 2 years. They get a good O line and blocking TE's and year 3 he's all the way up to 5.1.

Or let's take your own division RB rankings where you had Mostert as the 2nd best in the division I think. Mostert is a 29 year journeyman RB who's never had more than 772 yards and had 2 rushes for 4 other teams before Shanny got him. Now he averages over 5 yards per because he's in a well designed system with a good O line.

It doesn't matter how much they touch the ball. The truth a successful run play is far more reliant on everyone doing their job and the scheme than the RB being elite.

That's why it's the least valuable position in football.

To follow up on this, if you want to improve the rush forget a RB in round 2 and draft Wyatt Davis instead.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Of course you need talent, Conner and Edmonds have talent.

I said they don't need to be elite. No position in football is as reliant on other players making them look good as RB.

Look at Conner when the Steelers had a good OL vs when he didn't.

Look at Zeke last year behind that trash O line vs the elite one he had before.

You can even see it in Christian McCaffrey's stats. Rookie year 3.7 YPC

Then he gets used to the scheme and the coaches adjust to suit his game. 5 YPC and 4.8 YPC the following 2 years. Then last year, a new coach and new scheme. The O line isn't great. Only 3.8 YPC on 60 carries.

Or come at it the other way. Ronald Jones 1.9 and 4.2 YPA his first 2 years. They get a good O line and blocking TE's and year 3 he's all the way up to 5.1.

Or let's take your own division RB rankings where you had Mostert as the 2nd best in the division I think. Mostert is a 29 year journeyman RB who's never had more than 772 yards and had 2 rushes for 4 other teams before Shanny got him. Now he averages over 5 yards per because he's in a well designed system with a good O line.

It doesn't matter how much they touch the ball. The truth a successful run play is far more reliant on everyone doing their job and the scheme than the RB being elite.

That's why it's the least valuable position in football.

Actually I think wr is right there with rb. If wr doesn’t have at least an adequate qb they are close to useless. At least a rb can be effective in two other phases of the game if their oline stinks or is just mediocre. They can be an excellent pass protector and/or a good outlet receiver. If a wr has a poor qb he’s virtually useless other than an occasional outside or downfield block.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

To follow up on this, if you want to improve the rush forget a RB in round 2 and draft Wyatt Davis instead.

I’d really love to see the cardinals with a truly dominant oline for a span of years.

 

[BritCard]

Actually I think wr is right there with rb. If wr doesn’t have at least an adequate qb they are close to useless. At least a rb can be effective in two other phases of the game if their oline stinks or is just mediocre. They can be an excellent pass protector and/or a good outlet receiver. If a wr has a poor qb he’s virtually useless other than an occasional outside or downfield block.

I see it the other way. Many a good wide receiver made garbage QB's stick around in the league. Look at Nuk pre Watson, or Larry pre Palmer.

NFL history is littered with wide receivers having 1000+ yards with trash QB's. Nuk nearly got there with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage.

He had 1500 yards in 2015 with Hoyer, Mallett, Yates and Weedon. 1500 yards!

Larry had 1137 in 2010 with Anderson, Skelton and Hall and 1400 in 2011 with Kolb and Skelton.

You get a WR with a good radius who's good at the catch point and the QB can just throw it up and let them do the work.

 

[Solar7]

Of course you need talent, Conner and Edmonds have talent.

I said they don't need to be elite. No position in football is as reliant on other players making them look good as RB.

Look at Conner when the Steelers had a good OL vs when he didn't.

Look at Zeke last year behind that trash O line vs the elite one he had before.

You can even see it in Christian McCaffrey's stats. Rookie year 3.7 YPC

Then he gets used to the scheme and the coaches adjust to suit his game. 5 YPC and 4.8 YPC the following 2 years. Then last year, a new coach and new scheme. The O line isn't great. Only 3.8 YPC on 60 carries.

Or come at it the other way. Ronald Jones 1.9 and 4.2 YPA his first 2 years. They get a good O line and blocking TE's and year 3 he's all the way up to 5.1.

Or let's take your own division RB rankings where you had Mostert as the 2nd best in the division I think. Mostert is a 29 year journeyman RB who's never had more than 772 yards and had 2 rushes for 4 other teams before Shanny got him. Now he averages over 5 yards per because he's in a well designed system with a good O line.

It doesn't matter how much they touch the ball. The truth a successful run play is far more reliant on everyone doing their job and the scheme than the RB being elite.

That's why it's the least valuable position in football.

We don't have a dominant OL or scheme though, so why do people pretend we're cranking out top RBs? We were 2nd to last in RB production last year and only added one player on the OL, while leaving a tremendous question on the right side of the line.

Listen, I have no problem saying Shannahan's offensive scheme generates great RB production with subpar talent. We're not running that scheme.

Also, the difference between a Zeke or McCaffery behind a good OL and scheme and your run of the mill bargain basement RBs is that Zeke and McCaffery will turn that into a 1500 yard season and make opponents adjust to the run game, opening up the rest of the playbook, while the Wayne Gallmans of the world might edge out 4 YPC when they'd otherwise average 2.

 

[BritCard]

We don't have a dominant OL or scheme though, so why do people pretend we're cranking out top RBs? We were 2nd to last in RB production last year and only added one player on the OL, while leaving a tremendous question on the right side of the line.

Listen, I have no problem saying Shannahan's offensive scheme generates great RB production with subpar talent. We're not running that scheme.

Also, the difference between a Zeke or McCaffery behind a good OL and scheme and your run of the mill bargain basement RBs is that Zeke and McCaffery will turn that into a 1500 yard season and make opponents adjust to the run game, opening up the rest of the playbook, while the Wayne Gallmans of the world might edge out 4 YPC when they'd otherwise average 2.

You're making my argument for me. So we agree it's better to invest in O line and have a good scheme than try to find a McCaffrey or Zeke. Because no RB is going to be great with a poor O line, as we saw with Zeke last year.

You're right. An elite running back will get you a little more YPC in a poor system than an average running back. But then you have to pay that one guy mega bucks. You have to carry major injury risk and he's going to wear out quickly in most cases.

It makes much more sense to put that money into a good O line and TE's while using good RB's that come much cheaper. That way you offer better protection to the QB too, improve the run game, save money and spread your injury risk.

 

[Stout]

You're making my argument for me. So we agree it's better to invest in O line and have a good scheme than try to find a McCaffrey or Zeke. Because no RB is going to be great with a poor O line, as we saw with Zeke last year.

You're right. An elite running back will get you a little more YPC in a poor system than an average running back. But then you have to pay that one guy mega bucks. You have to carry major injury risk and he's going to wear out quickly in most cases.

It makes much more sense to put that money into a good O line and TE's while using good RB's that come much cheaper. That way you offer better protection to the QB too, improve the run game, save money and spread your injury risk.

We haven't done that. Trading for a center, a very good center, was massive because our OL was, apart from one player, atrocious to below average. Our TEs are worse than that. So we still have major question marks on the OL, at TE, AND still have need at RB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

We haven't done that. Trading for a center, a very good center, was massive because our OL was, apart from one player, atrocious to below average. Our TEs are worse than that. So we still have major question marks on the OL, at TE, AND still have need at RB.

I don't know; Justin Murray and Kelvin Beachum are OK NFL players. Pugh is a decent guard, and the left side of the OL overall looks pretty solid.

I know I'm not alone in this assessment, but the Cardinals OL is probably as good as it's ever been (ON PAPER) in all the years I've followed this team.

 

[Solar7]

You're making my argument for me. So we agree it's better to invest in O line and have a good scheme than try to find a McCaffrey or Zeke. Because no RB is going to be great with a poor O line, as we saw with Zeke last year.

You're right. An elite running back will get you a little more YPC in a poor system than an average running back. But then you have to pay that one guy mega bucks. You have to carry major injury risk and he's going to wear out quickly in most cases.

It makes much more sense to put that money into a good O line and TE's while using good RB's that come much cheaper. That way you offer better protection to the QB too, improve the run game, save money and spread your injury risk.

I have no problem investing in a top flight o-line. I would agree with you that I'd rather have a good OL than good RB at least in order of drafting/signing them.

The only hurdle is that I think you have to maximize that with at least a pretty talented RB, however you acquire them. Having a great OL and putting what we have behind feels like owning a Corvette with a V6 engine. Yeah it's better than most, but it could be awesome.

 

[Shane]

I’d really love to see the cardinals with a truly dominant oline for a span of years.

Dallas did and that Emmitt guy could still manage a career average of 4.1 YPC

 

[QuebecCard]

I have no problem investing in a top flight o-line. I would agree with you that I'd rather have a good OL than good RB at least in order of drafting/signing them.

The only hurdle is that I think you have to maximize that with at least a pretty talented RB, however you acquire them. Having a great OL and putting what we have behind feels like owning a Corvette with a V6 engine. Yeah it's better than most, but it could be awesome.

V6 Turbo and you won't know the difference.

Bottom line: we can replace 955 yrs of production from last season with a combination of Conner and Edmonds - Imo.

 

[Solar7]

V6 Turbo and you won't know the difference.

Bottom line: we can replace 955 yrs of production from last season with a combination of Conner and Edmonds - Imo.

I don't want to replace 955 yards of production, that was a subpar effort. You registered after knowing how much I disliked Drake, haha.

 

[Hoodhero]

Whatever happened to Steven Nelson? I have not seen any recent news about him even visiting teams

 

[tnmike]

I don't know; Justin Murray and Kelvin Beachum are OK NFL players. Pugh is a decent guard, and the left side of the OL overall looks pretty solid.

I know I'm not alone in this assessment, but the Cardinals OL is probably as good as it's ever been (ON PAPER) in all the years I've followed this team.

Roger Finnie, Bob Young, Tom Banks, Conrad Dobler, Dan Dierdorf were all pretty good back when I 1st started watching

 

[BritCard]

We haven't done that. Trading for a center, a very good center, was massive because our OL was, apart from one player, atrocious to below average. Our TEs are worse than that. So we still have major question marks on the OL, at TE, AND still have need at RB.

Our OL was ranked 12th in the league per PFF. It's highest ever rank.

Hump had an elite year. Pugh and Beechum were solid. C and RG were problem areas, we fixed one of them with a top 3 center in the league. We still need to fix RG. Murray, Winters, or Jones are unlikely to be anything other than lumps of meat to slow the DL down.

 

[BritCard]

I have no problem investing in a top flight o-line. I would agree with you that I'd rather have a good OL than good RB at least in order of drafting/signing them.

The only hurdle is that I think you have to maximize that with at least a pretty talented RB, however you acquire them. Having a great OL and putting what we have behind feels like owning a Corvette with a V6 engine. Yeah it's better than most, but it could be awesome.

No team can have everything. You have to compromise somewhere, and RB is by far the easiest to compromise at for all the reasons I've mentioned plus over supply.

Edit

I'm not against a top tier rd 1/2 RB in the future. But it's really a luxury pick for when you have a very strong roster already.

I was just thinking. The 2019 Superbowl was Breida, Coleman and Mostert vs Williams, Shady, Williams.

If that doesn't say you don't need a top tier RB I don't know what does.

 

[BritCard]

V6 Turbo and you won't know the difference.

Bottom line: we can replace 955 yrs of production from last season with a combination of Conner and Edmonds - Imo.

You have to account for Edmunds yards last year but I agree that they can replace the 1300 yards. Connor/Edmunds is at least as good as Drake/Edmunds and I still think there is some talent out there to add another.

 

[Ronin]

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[Ronin]

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[Solar7]

No team can have everything. You have to compromise somewhere, and RB is by far the easiest to compromise at for all the reasons I've mentioned plus over supply.

Edit

I'm not against a top tier rd 1/2 RB in the future. But it's really a luxury pick for when you have a very strong roster already.

I was just thinking. The 2019 Superbowl was Breida, Coleman and Mostert vs Williams, Shady, Williams.

If that doesn't say you don't need a top tier RB I don't know what does.

Good running backs can technically come from anywhere, but that goes for every position in the NFL. We're never going to get to the point where we can spend a "luxury" pick on RB if we keep forcing Kyler to play hero ball. And make no mistake, that's what you're asking him to do by not providing him a decent RB.

Kyler is not Patrick Mahomes, and doesn't have that 49ers defense. We need to provide him with some other outlet to not be the ONLY reason we're in games.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying we MUST draft a 1st/2nd round back at any particular point. I just want a talented back and not someone who is pedestrian. If we take some shots in the 3rd round or 4th round, or in free agency, and keep a supply of guys who might become really good, then fantastic. We just don't have that opportunity this year and I think this offense is too reliant on Kyler. It could even be that down the line, a Benjamin or Ward emerges and happens to be the next hidden gem in the NFL. I'm just not counting on them.

As I've said, I don't believe this team will make any significant additions in the draft this year, so it's just going to be a problem we have to address next year when the cupboard is even more bare than this year was.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I see it the other way. Many a good wide receiver made garbage QB's stick around in the league. Look at Nuk pre Watson, or Larry pre Palmer.

NFL history is littered with wide receivers having 1000+ yards with trash QB's. Nuk nearly got there with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage.

He had 1500 yards in 2015 with Hoyer, Mallett, Yates and Weedon. 1500 yards!

Larry had 1137 in 2010 with Anderson, Skelton and Hall and 1400 in 2011 with Kolb and Skelton.

You get a WR with a good radius who's good at the catch point and the QB can just throw it up and let them do the work.

I think Larry is an example of bad QBs, limited impact. Just look at 2012-2014. And it also means they likely could have had monster seasons like Julio has had if they had good QBs. Plenty of rbs have also reached 1000 yards (your marker for “success”) with mediocre or even bad offensive lines.