lol @ how dirty the Spurs play..

[ambchang_]

Oh my...ladies and gentlemen, you have just seen Ambchange do what is commonly known on the Internet as "Kicking Your Own Ass" or KYOA. What ambchang did here is a fantastic example of KYOA.

Ok, the post that started my response.

Hmmm.

Let's see. Logic tells you that what Nashman is referencing is, well, intentionally sliding the feet under shooters. And since Ambchang acknowledges it happens TWICE and not ALL THE TIME, well, that means he knows what we are talking about here.

From this point on, it should be crystal clear that we are talking about the claim that:



Anyone not following along other than Ambchang? Everyone has it? Good.

So I say:



Quick quiz...what am I referencing in the bold parts. Yep, you guessed it:



Man, that was easy, right? I thought so.


Ambchang, however, begs to differ.



What? KYOA. That is exactly what we were talking about.



That's wise advice for someone like ambchang to take to heart, lest he KYOA again.



Then SitNSpin shows me video of a guy jumping on top of another guy, landing on his ankle and thinks that is the same thing. Again he should take his own advice:






Given the above examples of ambchang not able to follow along and looking like an asshat in the process, that quote right there is KTFOOYOA, and is quite priceless. I think he must have been looking in the mirror as he typed that...self hate and rage is dangerous and I hope he gets help.

Oh, and:

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BRILLIANT, taking post #105 by Nashman, taking it out of context and not taking into account TWO PAGES of arguing about:

Devoid of common sense? Of course.

When Bowen comes down from his jump. Has both feet firmly planted on the ground, then literally slides his foot under someone else's foot, that's trying to hurt someone.

Do I need to spell it out any more clearly? I thought what I have been saying has been common sense. Go figure.

So was Bowen sliding his feet under Kobe after he had his feet set at the 24 second mark? What I saw was Bowen landed on that spot, but no .... you had to jump into the middle of the conversation, had absolutely no idea of what was being discussed, and jumped to conclusions.

And the twice comment was directly related to two shooters twisting their ankles on Bowen. Go read the post.

I guess you just defined KYOA yourself

 

[D-Dogg]

BRILLIANT, taking post #105 by Nashman, taking it out of context and not taking into account TWO PAGES of arguing about:



So was Bowen sliding his feet under Kobe after he had his feet set at the 24 second mark? What I saw was Bowen landed on that spot, but no .... you had to jump into the middle of the conversation, had absolutely no idea of what was being discussed, and jumped to conclusions.

And the twice comment was directly related to two shooters twisting their ankles on Bowen. Go read the post.

I guess you just defined KYOA yourself

You can read the post dude, the words are right in it. It's not hard. Really.

The video clearly shows your boy jab his foot out under kobe when he jumps, then he pulls it back.

I addressed exactly what Nashman said, and since Bowen does it frequently to Kobe I posted. You didn't understand anything, surprising after you shot your mouth off the whole thread, and kept on some previous theme. You are aware that on the Internet we have these things called conversations, and in these conversations, the topic can change when people mention new items. If you aren't aware, you damn sure should be now.

Run and play now, I'm through with you. You may be excused.

 

[Ixion]

That's unfair to Laimbeer. Laimbeer would step on people's shoes so they couldn't get rebounds. He would grab jerseys, throw elbows, get inside of people's heads. He was about as dirty as they got. And yet, he was a gifted shooter and a 10/10 big man who could knock down clutch 3's, clutch free throws. The man was a competitor.

Compare and contrast to Bruce Bowen, who is a player with so little ability that he was nearly bounced out of the league years ago. He had no jump shot, couldn't knock down free throws--couldn't do much of anything of value to a basketball team. So Bruce decided that he would hand check, trip, gouge, and hack the living hell out of anybody he was matched up against. He's tried to carve out a niche for himself as some sort of tough guy perimeter defender. And so the NBA kept him.

To his credit, he has worked tirelessly on the corner 3-point shot that you see him take all the time, and he spent an entire season working on nothing but his free throw shooting. It's Bruce Bowen still trying to justify his presence on the floor.

And try as he might, the man still lacks fundamental basketball skills. He can take and make a three pointer only because it's a measured shot that he practices every day--not because he's some sort of shooter who can hit from anywhere on the floor. If you watch him enough, you'll notice that if a single thing is different from the motion he practices: foot position, floor position, defender's position--he will miss the shot. I've seen this phenomenon in person at pregame shootarounds. And to this day, I'd still say that people like Bruce Bowen have no place in the league.

I can't let that slide. You're saying that a guy who works his butt off to get better day in and day out so that he has a place on a team doesn't deserve to be in the league? So only the athletes that were born with incredible talent but don't do anything to make themselves better or help the team do have a place? Please. Workhorses like Bruce Bowen are exactly what the league needs, not guys like Allen Iverson, who don't want to go to practice.

 

[Ixion]

But hes a ditry whiny player. That much has been said by Kobe, Jason Richardson, T-Mac and even the docile Ray Allen. If you don't think so its likely your a Spurs fan and you love your players who help you win. But you are also quite naive.

Thats like me trying to convince you that Steve Nash is some kinda defensive dynamo.

Actually Kobe's one of the few players who respects Bowen's game. He's said as much that Bruce gives him the hardest time hands down. Everyone else you mentioned has called him dirty though, especially Allen.

 

[Lorenzo]

well I was upset dallas lost the game, but I was impressed with how well they played......with the exception of jason terry. they went cold in the last couple mins....which usually means a loss against SA. but they were able to do some good things despite a poor shooting night from dirk.....who got to the line plenty. as far as dirty physical play. everyone knows the spurs push the envelope. but the mavs give it right back in terms of physicality. unfortunately terry has punched a guy under a pile....stack and horry have fought because of horry biting him. It's not uncommon in this series to see some extra foul play go on. If anything you have to be smart and try not to let your emotions get the best of you. those tech fouls that terry and avery both got were two big points to lose.

 

[passenger]

Bruce Bowen,maybe not the dirtiesr but definitely one of the dirtiest basketball players ever.And Spirs team has that dirty manner in general,in each call against him,you guys see Tim Duncan's fake shocked face?

 

[BeeBeard]

I can't let that slide. You're saying that a guy who works his butt off to get better day in and day out so that he has a place on a team doesn't deserve to be in the league? So only the athletes that were born with incredible talent but don't do anything to make themselves better or help the team do have a place? Please. Workhorses like Bruce Bowen are exactly what the league needs, not guys like Allen Iverson, who don't want to go to practice.

I think you misunderstand. It's more like there's a certain threshold of talent that exists between your NBA players and your college / NBDL stock. Speaking as somebody who had a career only in the latter, and not the former, I feel like I'm an expert on the subject of "not having what it takes."

You can work hard to improve a jump shot, or your free throw shooting, or your post defense, etc., but if you weren't actually blessed with a certain degree of ability in the first place, it won't help you much. And it certainly won't give you the keys to the kingdom. Bowen is just such a person. While his work ethic is admirable, the way in which he has actually maintained a presence in the league is not through a practiced corner 3-point shot. As these other posters would gladly tell you, it's been by way of something a lot more sinister.

I think we can all agree that there are players in the league who are the antithesis of your hard-working bubble players. They were given natural speed, or size, and honor those gifts by doing absolutely nothing to try to get better. But this thread isn't about those guys. It's about how what Bruce Bowen does to his coworkers who play on other basketball teams is to try to physically harm them.

Imagine if Bruce Bowen worked at the post office, and every once in a while, for no reason whatsoever, Bowen deliberately trips a fellow employee and pushes that person into a wall of stacked packages. Or, another employee is sorting letters, and Bowen grabs their shirt and yanks them to the ground. Seems pretty objectionable, right? Now consider that that kind of behavior isn't acceptable in professional basketball, either, and you might understand the reason why Bowen should have been bounced out of the league a long time ago.

 

[D-Dogg]

Imagine if Bruce Bowen worked at the post office, and every once in a while, for no reason whatsoever, Bowen deliberately trips a fellow employee and pushes that person into a wall of stacked packages. Or, another employee is sorting letters, and Bowen grabs their shirt and yanks them to the ground.

Oddly, that seems like something that would often happen at the post office.

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Bruce Bowen was born to be a postal worker.

 

[Ixion]

Imagine if Bruce Bowen worked at the post office, and every once in a while, for no reason whatsoever, Bowen deliberately trips a fellow employee and pushes that person into a wall of stacked packages. Or, another employee is sorting letters, and Bowen grabs their shirt and yanks them to the ground. Seems pretty objectionable, right? Now consider that that kind of behavior isn't acceptable in professional basketball, either, and you might understand the reason why Bowen should have been bounced out of the league a long time ago.

Aha, the difference is Bowen is paid to get inside the other team's head. I'm not saying it's not dirty, but he's doing whatever he has to for the team to win. It's no different than say, what Ron Artest does. Artest is just more athletic than Bowen.

And we'll just agree to disagree on his talent. I'd rather take a workhorse like Bowen than an on-the-bubble player. For example, Beno Udrih had so much god-given talent, but was extremely lazy and unmotivated. If he has a tenth of Bowen's work ethic he could have been a great player. Spur fans were counting the days 'till he got outta there.

 

[The Man In Black]

You're missing a point here.

I think you misunderstand. It's more like there's a certain threshold of talent that exists between your NBA players and your college / NBDL stock. Speaking as somebody who had a career only in the latter, and not the former, I feel like I'm an expert on the subject of "not having what it takes."

You can work hard to improve a jump shot, or your free throw shooting, or your post defense, etc., but if you weren't actually blessed with a certain degree of ability in the first place, it won't help you much. And it certainly won't give you the keys to the kingdom. Bowen is just such a person. While his work ethic is admirable, the way in which he has actually maintained a presence in the league is not through a practiced corner 3-point shot. As these other posters would gladly tell you, it's been by way of something a lot more sinister.

I think we can all agree that there are players in the league who are the antithesis of your hard-working bubble players. They were given natural speed, or size, and honor those gifts by doing absolutely nothing to try to get better. But this thread isn't about those guys. It's about how what Bruce Bowen does to his coworkers who play on other basketball teams is to try to physically harm them.

Imagine if Bruce Bowen worked at the post office, and every once in a while, for no reason whatsoever, Bowen deliberately trips a fellow employee and pushes that person into a wall of stacked packages. Or, another employee is sorting letters, and Bowen grabs their shirt and yanks them to the ground. Seems pretty objectionable, right? Now consider that that kind of behavior isn't acceptable in professional basketball, either, and you might understand the reason why Bowen should have been bounced out of the league a long time ago.

What you FAIL to point out is that Bruce gets REWARDED by placements on the ALL-NBA Defense team for the kind of defense that is needed to be played on upper echelon teams. No one complains when an offensive player gets an extra step or throws an a forearm or elbow to clear space on a shot that scores 2. It's Bowen's job to fight through the pick, to be on an island as long as possible on the Kobe's, the LeBron's, the AI's of the world who throw that clear move.

You might say that it's bogus but then I remind you that the decision for that D-team are by BASKETBALL EXPERTS, the former as you say and not the latter.

The voting panel consists of the NBA’s 30 head coaches, who are asked to select NBA All-Defensive First and Second Teams by position. Coaches were not permitted to vote for players from their own team. Two points were awarded for a First Team vote and one point was awarded for a Second Team vote.

What is it they see that YOU DO NOT?
2006-07 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM: Position Player, Team 1st 2nd Points Forward Bruce Bowen, San Antonionio 19 4 42 Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio 16 4 36 Center Marcus Camby, Denver 11 12 34 Guard Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 14 4 32 Guard Raja Bell, Phoenix 7 11 25

Note:Bowen had the most points overall including outpointing DPOY Marcus Camby.

 

[BeeBeard]

This Texan would like to tell you: There was only one man in black, and it was Johnny Cash, and not whatever gawky athlete with a pituitary problem you think you're referencing with your name.

Now that THAT's settled ( ), let's talk about Bruce Bowen. Many posters have stated that Bowen is a dirty player. Now, what has been your answer to that? That he's made the Defensive Team? You're really going to hang your hat on that?

Have you ever gone through the whole job interview process, and at some point, the company you're interviewing for asks for references? Do you want to know why? It's because they want to know what your peers think of you. It's a valuable screening tool.

Something tells me you're new to the Spurs, or else you would have mentioned that Bowen made Defensive First Team THREE times, not just in the season you apparently like to cite. But it still wouldn't matter one bit: The people who vote for the Defensive Teams are not players, they are not Bowen's peers. And what have his peers said about him, exactly? Well Ray Allen, a man widely respected as one of the classiest players in the league--and also the man Bowen did this to--had extremely unkind things to say about Bowen. Stoudemire, Carter, Bryant...they all seem to think he was trying to end their careers. That says volumes about the man, much more than "Defensive Team" nods from people who don't even share the court with him.

 

[The Man In Black]

This Texan would like to tell you: There was only one man in black, and it was Johnny Cash, and not whatever gawky athlete with a pituitary problem you think you're referencing with your name.

Now that THAT's settled ( ), let's talk about Bruce Bowen. Many posters have stated that Bowen is a dirty player. Now, what has been your answer to that? That he's made the Defensive Team? You're really going to hang your hat on that?

Have you ever gone through the whole job interview process, and at some point, the company you're interviewing for asks for references? Do you want to know why? It's because they want to know what your peers think of you. It's a valuable screening tool.

Something tells me you're new to the Spurs,

How about I've been a Spurs fan since Sean Elliott told me on a court at the U of A during the summer of 88, after talking about his lost HS State championship game to Mitch Greenway, he said, "Wherever I go, root for me." He ended up a Spur.

or else you would have mentioned that Bowen made Defensive First Team THREE times, not just in the season you apparently like to cite. But it still wouldn't matter one bit: The people who vote for the Defensive Teams are not players, they are not Bowen's peers. And what have his peers said about him, exactly? Well Ray Allen, a man widely respected as one of the classiest players in the league--and also the man Bowen did this to--had extremely unkind things to say about Bowen. Stoudemire, Carter, Bryant...they all seem to think he was trying to end their careers. That says volumes about the man, much more than "Defensive Team" nods from people who don't even share the court with him.

Let's take that ...Add Stat, VC, Bryant, add say Ray Allen, Steve Francis, ok....
Hey, how are you at math?

The GM went on to raise an interesting statistical argument: Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.


"How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays?," the GM notes. "When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."

Let's say it's 10 or even 20 out of 4000 plays, does that make him dirty? If he was on your team, you wouldn't change a thing about him. In fact, he's exactly the kind of player your team needs. I already told you, Raja trains with Bowen in the off-season, WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? It tells you that even Raja knows that Bruce's defensive technique is effectively the best. If it wasn't then why would Raja choose to train with Bowen?
I await your retort or spin on that one.


Okay so you wanted a peer to talk about Bowen?

"If anything Bruce is too nice," said a close friend and former NBA teammate of Bowen's who also wished to remain anonymous. "If he were an a------, nobody would say anything about him. They'd be afraid he'd punch them in the face. ... But Bruce isn't like that, so Vince Carter and Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton feel they can say what they want about him.
"But, trust me, I've known Bruce for a long time. There's not a dirty bone in his body."

The guy has a point. If he was as nasty say Maurice Lucas, or Truck Robinson, or Rick Mahorn, or Buck Williams...then no one would say crap about Bowen, they'd fear retribution, but they don't. Why is that?

You can live in denial all you want, but what he does, is match whatever offensive effectiveness that the guy he is covering with defensive effectiveness. Pretty boys want all the space so they can score, look good while doing it, and don't want to WORK for it. It's Bowen's job to make them work for it, and he does it better than any player on you PHX team. BAR NONE.

 

[BeeBeard]

I'm just so glad that you've handily disposed of the matter of Bruce Bowen being a classless, cheap-shot scrub by citing to a mysterious quote from an unknown player (and supposedly a teammate, as though that has any bearing on things), copied from an unknown source!

Well, if Mr. X thinks that Bowen is an OK guy, I guess the issue is decided!

 

[The Man In Black]

I'm just so glad that you've handily disposed of the matter of Bruce Bowen being a classless, cheap-shot scrub by citing to a mysterious quote from an unknown player (and supposedly a teammate, as though that has any bearing on things), copied from an unknown source!
Well, if Mr. X thinks that Bowen is an OK guy, I guess the issue is decided!

Oh and the source is none other than prominent sports magazine...SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. Here is a link so you can check the facts-
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/marty_burns/11/15/bowen.reputation/1.html



Hey look...It's a CONCESSION...great and they said it couldn't be done.

It's amazing.


Bruce Bowen-undertalented SF who works harder than anyone else when it comes to defense. C'mon man the guy is 37 years old and he's still working the premier O perimeter players daily. There is a term for players like him...GAMER.

 

[Chaplin]

Bruce Bowen is an extremely smart player. Period. I don't like him at all because of his tactics, but if it works and he doesn't get in trouble for any of it, then why not do what he does? If it was a huge thing, you'd see him getting fined, but players and coaches don't really complain about it--just the fans do.

 

[The Man In Black]

Bruce Bowen is an extremely smart player. Period. I don't like him at all because of his tactics, but if it works and he doesn't get in trouble for any of it, then why not do what he does? If it was a huge thing, you'd see him getting fined, but players and coaches don't really complain about it--just the fans do.

Eloquently stated...PROPS!!!

 

[ambchang_]

You can read the post dude, the words are right in it. It's not hard. Really.

Take your own advice. A bunch of us were talking specifically how Bowen was sliding his foot under shooters' feet after having both of his feet set, i.e. intentionally hurting opponents, all along. I took out the twice in his career in direct reference to Francis and Carter, putting videos out to show all along the thread what was being said.

You came in after all was said when someone brought up the "twice a game" comment with your "twice a quarter" comment. If you were to have read the thread all along, you could have understood what was said. I have quoted what was said earlier on, so take your own advice and read it.

If you were saying Bowen was sliding his foot under Bryant unintentionally twice a quarter through contesting shots, fine.

The video clearly shows your boy jab his foot out under kobe when he jumps, then he pulls it back.

I addressed exactly what Nashman said, and since Bowen does it frequently to Kobe I posted. You didn't understand anything, surprising after you shot your mouth off the whole thread, and kept on some previous theme. You are aware that on the Internet we have these things called conversations, and in these conversations, the topic can change when people mention new items. If you aren't aware, you damn sure should be now.

Run and play now, I'm through with you. You may be excused.

Great, the topic changed, and I have changed with it after grasping that you were expanding the definition of dirty to include simply contesting jump shots. So was smith dirty?

Oh my, you were through with me. Great authority on the internet, I didn't know you were the mod. Anything you need to enlighten me on? Such as how I should follow your definition on where the thread should go? What other threads do you own on this board? What other topics do you want to change?

Oh wait, you were through with me. LOL, what does that even mean? Oh, I am through with you, I am so big, I am the big man on the internet behind my screen. LOL.

 

[ambchang_]

Dear ambchang,

You must be registered for see images attach

There is more than one person who owns this thread? LOL. Anything meaningful to say? Such as, have you even gone through the whole thread and knew what the topic was really about?

Very nice jumping into the topic without any relevant points, and STILL chose the losing side. Good job, not only have you know basketball arguments, you can't even follow a simple thread (that makes TWO people on this thread). Good job.

 

[ambchang_]

Bruce Bowen,maybe not the dirtiesr but definitely one of the dirtiest basketball players ever.And Spirs team has that dirty manner in general,in each call against him,you guys see Tim Duncan's fake shocked face?

In other news, the Suns never complain to the referees or the press:

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=FbkomSsaeLQ&feature=related


Nor do they ever foul:

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EDIT: I didn't even notice it in the first read because it was so ridiculous. Complaining about calls is dirty? Is that what I read? Seriously, did you actually say that the Spurs had an aura of dirtiness around them, reflected by the fact that Duncan complains about calls? This is gold! This is like the ethics committee of NBA athletes.
So allow me to sum up the findings of this committee:
1) Contesting jump shots is dirty. (Or is that contesting Kobe jump shots in particular?)
2) Complaining about calls is dirty. (Unless Suns players/coaches were involved)
3) Accidentally tripping your opponents is dirty. (Regardless of players, and that could include *GASP* Nash).

Is there anything I missed?
Is playing defense in general dirty? Is boxing out dirty? You do know that could potentially result in physical contact amongst players, right? Oh man, this is gold. I don't have to rent comedies ever anymore, I can just come in and ask about basketball ethics in this forum.

 

[Chaplin]

I can't tell if you are doing it by accident or trying to purposely become a troll. Discuss the topic with some kind of maturity or you won't be around here much longer.

 

[ambchang_]

I am not trying on purpose, and if you are actually trying to be objective all along, I have only dished out insults to those who insulted me. On one hand, it is perfectly acceptable to have a topic named lol @ how dirty the Spurs play", or saying "Spirs team has that dirty manner in general" (And I am just citing the two most convenient examples), while me chiming in about their lack of objectivity in a sarcastic manner is immature and acting like a troll.

I do not reserve verbal assaults to people who come in claiming Bruce Bowen does it to Kobe Bryant twice a quarter, when said poster doesn't even have any idea of what "it" meant all along in the conversation, and refused to admit being wrong after quotations of posts from pasts, all the while claiming victory and acting like some kind of police when he is not the mod. These kinds of people will be taken lightly, and I will provide the same kind of respect that they justly deserve.

On the other hand, I am wide open to the idea of objective basketball discussion, as you can see that I actually respect Cheesewater and Dreamcastrocks, because they don't come in with orange and purple coloured glasses, and call anyone who disagree with them trolls.

 

[mojorizen7]

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Yeah.... why would anybody argue a whistle from this guy?

 

[ambchang_]

That is exactly what I am talking about, refusing to move on.

Back in the 90's, Spurs fans, myself included, would cry about how Malone would hack the heck out of Robinson without being called. In fact, Robinson was called for a foul by receiving a Malone elbow, ending up a concussion (at least Nash's groin was sacrificed and the Suns got the ball back).

In 2004, Fisher did the infamous catch and shoot fade away in 0.4 seconds (physically impossible). Spurs fans, again, myself included, complained about it.

But looking back, those were the necessary growing pains. The Jazz beat the Spurs because the refs just aren't going to foul out Malone and give Robinson 25 FTs a game, the standard of physicality was set, and the Spurs had to match. If Robinson couldn't score because he was raked on the arm multiple times on every shot, then pass it to the perimeter and have the scorers score. You cannot be a championship team by being a one trick pony.

As for the 0.4 incident, the shot was within the rules, you CAN do a catch and shoot with anything over 0.3, and if the Spurs played well, were able to knock down wide open shots, that game would not have been that close to begin with, and Spurs would have won the series, but they weren't able to, so they lost.

Now the Suns are hanging on the suspensions and Donaghy as their excuses. Fact is, the Spurs were 3-2 in games that the Suns had their full team, the Spurs lost Horry for 2 games on a hip check, which is definitely the most severely penalized hip check in the history of the league. It was a hard foul that deserves an ejection, and if nobody left the bench and no altercation ensued, I guarantee that there wouldn't be any suspensions on Horry.

As for Donaghy, Game 3 was terribly called, but not by Donaghy, nobody even raised that suspicion until the FBI investigation. Game 4 was the controversy. The Suns had a great chance to win Game 5 without Stoudemire, but collapsed in the end. The Suns had a full team in Game 6, but folded.

The series was largely evenly called, with the Spurs getting beneficial calls in Game 3, and Suns getting them in Games 4 and 5. So top blaming everything else, and look at the Suns' failure to execute down the stretch in multiple games, follow simple rules, and folding under pressure.

 

[nashman]

^ your an idiot if you don't think the fact OUR players were suspended would have made a difference in game 5 when we ran out of gas, not collapsed! Defend your cheaters because the world was watching that joke and even commentators mentioned that arguably the Suns got SCREWED.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

^ your an idiot if you don't think the fact OUR players were suspended would have made a difference in game 5 when we ran out of gas, not collapsed! Defend your cheaters because the world was watching that joke and even commentators mentioned that arguably the Suns got SCREWED.

did you read CM's thread about the name calling?