Lonzo Ball

[Krangodnzr]

I have no idea who waltcoogan is but that's a great post and jibes 100% with my recollection of KJ.

Its funny, I talk with NBA fans of other teams and they have forgotten how good KJ was...

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its funny, I talk with NBA fans of other teams and they have forgotten how good KJ was...

The guy was great and it's a disservice that he isn't in the hall. Unless, of course, you're of the opinion he belongs in prison instead.

 

[BC867]

The guy was great and it's a disservice that he isn't in the hall. Unless, of course, you're of the opinion he belongs in prison instead.

Well, he did a pretty good job for eight years as Mayor, despite his indiscretions. The only thing that bugged me about KJ on the court was how he would always drive the lane with the game on the line and predictably get blocked.

And I didn't appreciate that the Chuckster and Franchise, Jr., couldn't get along like Malone and Stockton.

 

[Hoop Head]

Great post by Walt Coogan, far too long for me to quote to right a quick response.

I think KJ was like an early 90's version of Nash offensively, without the shooting range. He could drive with ease, find his teammates in the right spot, and score in bunches when the team needed him to. He was also the heart of the 90's Suns teams. If injuries didn't derail his career I could easily see him being ranked above Payton and behind Stockton as far as the best PG's of the 90's and surefire Hall of Famer. He was lighting quick and was average on defense but he seemed to step it up a notch in the playoffs and in games that mattered.

 

[waltcoogan]

Well, he did a pretty good job for eight years as Mayor, despite his indiscretions. The only thing that bugged me about KJ on the court was how he would always drive the lane with the game on the line and predictably get blocked.

And I didn't appreciate that the Chuckster and Franchise, Jr., couldn't get along like Malone and Stockton.

Possibly, you may be remembering a couple of instances that have wiped out other memories—for example, you may be influenced by the final possession of the 1993 NBA Finals, where Horace Grant blocked K.J. from behind as the clock expired (after Grant had initially stumbled on K.J.'s crossover). Just to cite a few other kinds of examples ...


January 27, 1989, New York at Phoenix (the game where Tom Chambers dunked over Mark Jackson):

Go to the 3:24 mark of this highlight package:

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With the score tied at 130, K.J. works against Gerald Wilkins in a "1-4" isolation set. Using two in-and-out right-handed dribbles, he penetrates deeply enough to draw Charles Oakley from the right baseline. K.J. then bounces the ball to Oakley's man, Mark West, who draws a (questionable) foul on a rotating Patrick Ewing. West, of course, constitutes a notoriously poor free throw shooter who ideally would not even have been in the game for that possession. (Phoenix head coach Cotton Fitzsimmons had declined to call a timeout.) He misses both free throws, but Chambers grabs the offensive rebound and sticks the ball in for the game-winning score.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198901270PHO.html


May 6, 1990, Phoenix at Utah (winner-take-all Game Five of the best-of-five Western Conference First Round playoff series):

With the score even at 102 and 14.9 seconds remaining, the Suns inbound the ball from under their own basket following a timeout. (I just reviewed this play, although I had remembered it well from going back and viewing this game a couple of times in the last ten years.) K.J. dribbles the ball up and then works one-on-one against John Stockton in another "1-4" isolation set, eventually breaking to his left and drawing Utah's Blue Edwards away from veteran Phoenix guard Mike McGee on the left baseline. After drawing the double team, K.J. bounces the ball to McGee as three Utah defenders—including Stockton and Edwards—collapse to McGee with about 3.8 seconds left. Despite stumbling, K.J. manages to recover his footing and get back out to the free throw line, where McGee hits him with the return pass with 2.8 seconds remaining. K.J. shoots the foul-line jumper just before a rotating Bobby Hansen can block the shot, the ball swishing through the net with 0.8 seconds left on the clock. After Utah fails to answer following a timeout, the series victory belongs to Phoenix.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-05-07/sports/sp-151_1_kevin-johnson

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199005060UTA.html


November 21, 1990, Chicago at Phoenix:

With the score tied at 107, Kevin Johnson beats the Bulls at the buzzer with a turning bank-in jumper from the right side over John Paxson:

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/122376950/

https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4027771.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199011210PHO.html


May 14, 1992, Portland at Phoenix (Game Four of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals):

In what turns out to be the final NBA game ever played at Veterans Memorial Coliseum, the Suns trail 140-138 with 7.9 seconds remaining in overtime. Following a timeout, Phoenix inbounds the ball to Kevin Johnson at half court. K.J., guarded by the taller Clyde Drexler, dribbles right of the top of the key, throws a hesitation/slight in-and-out dribble at Drexler, and then side-steps into space right of the lane, pulling up from seventeen feet and draining the game-tying jumper with 2.7 seconds remaining. Unfortunately, K.J. would foul out early in the second overtime and the Suns would lose.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199205110PHO.html

One can see a view of that jumper from the 5:24-5:41 portion of this video:

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(By the way, the Suns lost that series largely because they suffered from multiple terrible calls late in Games One and Four.)


December 27, 1994, Phoenix at Dallas:

Trailing 118-117, K.J. pulls up on the baseline for the game-winning jumper with 3.7 seconds to play.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-28/sports/sp-13607_1_dallas-mavericks

http://web.archive.org/web/20060413.../teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1994&b=19941227&tm=dal


November 16, 1997, Houston at Phoenix:

With the score tied at 94 and 14.0 seconds remaining, the Suns inbound the ball from underneath their basket following a timeout. Kevin Johnson brings the ball up the court and the Suns run a "1-5" pick-and-roll, with the court spread by guards—the other three players on the floor are Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, and Rex Chapman. Clifford Robinson, the center in this lineup, comes to the top of the three-point arc to set the pick for Johnson. K.J. was on fire in this game—he had scored 30 points on 12-16 field goal shooting, including 9-12 on jumpers. In fact, he opened the game 7-7 from the field, all on jump shots ranging from twelve to twenty feet. (I viewed/studied this game last November and just reviewed the final play again.) So Houston point guard Matt Maloney is going over Robinson's screen, which the Phoenix big man slips. Hakeem Olajuwon, guarding Robinson, back-pedals to the right as K.J. comes off, looking to prevent the drive and eliminate a scoring opportunity for Johnson. After K.J. has drawn the double team and lured Olajuwon far enough away from Robinson, he quickly passes back to Robinson, who buries the seventeen-foot catch-and-shoot jumper above the foul line with 0.3 seconds remaining as Olajuwon belatedly scrambles to challenge the shot. The Suns win.

Cliff Robinson's foul-line jumper with less than a second to play capped a rally from a 16-point second-half deficit and gave the Phoenix Suns a 96-94 victory over the struggling Houston Rockets.

The Rockets trailed 94-91 before Clyde Drexler tied it with a three-pointer with 14 seconds to go. After a timeout, the Suns inbounded in the backcourt and Kevin Johnson penetrated to the right and passed back to the foul line to Robinson, who made the shot with three-tenths of a second remaining.

"It was set up for KJ to come off and try to get an open shot, but they stepped towards him," Robinson said. "He was to pass it back and he did a good job of delivering the pass."

http://web.archive.org/web/20120604.../teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1997&b=19971116&tm=PHO

Those are just a few examples of K.J. delivering on final plays, and making good decisions, throughout his career.

As for Johnson's relationship with Barkley, according to Sir Charles' comments in 2003, he and K.J. "always got along," and "it's incorrect for anybody to say that Kevin and I didn't get along." However, Barkley did admit that he was disappointed that, while "friends," he and K.J. had not been "close" friends. K.J.'s comments at various times basically make the same point. Specifically, while the two men usually possessed good chemistry, they did not spend much time together away from basketball, a point suggested by their interaction in this video documenting Barkley's return to America West Arena following his trade to Houston in 1996. See the 1:37-2:09 section of this ESPN "SportsCenter" report back then:

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Barkley and K.J. had become closer, however, during their final season together in '95-'96, when they were the only Phoenix players remaining from the 1993 NBA Finals team. That year, they spent a little more time together away from the arena. For instance, while in Washington to play the Bullets in February 1996, Barkley delivered a lecture at Georgetown University. K.J. attended the event and praised Sir Charles' performance afterwards. (K.J.'s interests away from basketball tended to be intellectual in nature.)

Later, following the 1998 season, Barkley privately and publicly recruited K.J. to join him in Houston. (Barkley continued to push for K.J. behind the scenes during the 1999 post-lockout season, as did former Sun Eddie Johnson, also playing for Houston.) When K.J. attended Game Five of the Eastern Conference Finals between the Bulls and Pacers in Chicago with a friend, on May 27, 1998, a reporter asked him if he might like to play for the Bulls next season. K.J. said something like, "How about Charles Barkley, while you're at it? He's a free agent, too." The flummoxed reporter asked K.J. if he was being serious, to which Johnson smiled and replied, "Anything's possible. Anything."

When Barkley learned of the idea, he proved immediately enthusiastic, exclaiming, "Who would guard us? Who would guard us?" But of course, Barkley and K.J. would never play together again.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Its funny, I talk with NBA fans of other teams and they have forgotten how good KJ was...

During the course of kj' career he played at a time when there were so many good pgs and didn't have as much press as a lot of others.

Magic
Kj
Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Tim Hardaway
Derek Harper
Terry porter
Mo cheeks
Gary Payton
Mark price
Jason Kidd
Sam cassell
Penny hardaway
Mookie blaylock

 

[sunsfan88]

all of this. Fox is definitely more athletic and a better defender, but Ball, IMO, is a more athletic Jason Kidd who can shoot. That's pretty damn rare combo.

With a crazy dad....makes it an even rarer combo.

 

[Mainstreet]

@ Waltcoogan

Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers were awesome on that video. They were even better than my memories.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I remember watching that dunk by Chambers over Jackson. He just floated up. And I said to myself, "Did he really go that high?" He had to duck under the rim as he went by, and he was coming down. His arms were bent the whole time.

 

[JCSunsfan]

With a crazy dad....makes it an even rarer combo.

I would love to have Lonzo on this team, but that dad . . . yuck.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

This is ramping up to high drama. Lavar Ball has been playing a veritable Game of Thrones with teams and shoe companies. He has every piece where he wants and it may just all come crashing down.

Ball must wow the Lakers or they are taking Jackson or Fox

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/05/31...-or-theyll-draft-josh-jackson-or-deaaron-fox/

 

[JCSunsfan]

This is ramping up to high drama. Lavar Ball has been playing a veritable Game of Thrones with teams and shoe companies. He has every piece where he wants and it may just all come crashing down.

Ball must wow the Lakers or they are taking Jackson or Fox

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/05/31...-or-theyll-draft-josh-jackson-or-deaaron-fox/

Would love for Ball to Fall to us.

Celts--Fultz
Lakers--Fox
Philly--Jackson
Suns--Ball

Hate the dad, but this would be a good scenario. The Ball bunch would have to be humbled by being passed by the Lakers.

Ball may have some flaws, but I think people forget how incredibly efficient he is as a player. If this happened, I think it might be possible to trade Bledsoe and get back into the late lottery and pick up Isaac or Markkanen.

 

[Russ Smith]

This is ramping up to high drama. Lavar Ball has been playing a veritable Game of Thrones with teams and shoe companies. He has every piece where he wants and it may just all come crashing down.

Ball must wow the Lakers or they are taking Jackson or Fox

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/05/31...-or-theyll-draft-josh-jackson-or-deaaron-fox/

All the Lakers fans on UCLA boards insist the Lakers are taking lonzo, including some who claim to be insiders. We've all see the story you linked but they all say it's a smokescreen by the Lakers who are working on possible trades and want to create the impression they're not set on Lonzo because they believe it's lowering the trade value of DeAngelo Russell if everyone knows they're taking Lonzo.

Magic was at UCLA games all year and openly told everyone how much he loves Lonzo, so if they take someone else it pretty much means Walton or someone else is doing the drafting, not Magic.

It would be fascinating if they passed on Lonzo at this point.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Hate the dad, but this would be a good scenario. The Ball bunch would have to be humbled by being passed by the Lakers.

Ball may have some flaws, but I think people forget how incredibly efficient he is as a player. If this happened, I think it might be possible to trade Bledsoe and get back into the late lottery and pick up Isaac or Markkanen.

When it comes to the father, I believe this is wishful thinking of the highest order. This man does not see the world the way we do, that's clear in almost every interview he does. He will find a way to reshape this into something that either makes him the hero or the victim. That's not to say that he will necessarily be a problem for us or whoever drafts him, I just don't see humility in this man's near future.

 

[JCSunsfan]

When it comes to the father, I believe this is wishful thinking of the highest order. This man does not see the world the way we do, that's clear in almost every interview he does. He will find a way to reshape this into something that either makes him the hero or the victim. That's not to say that he will necessarily be a problem for us or whoever drafts him, I just don't see humility in this man's near future.

Fair enough. Would being passed by the Lakers open Lonzo's eyes to the negative impact of his father and cause him to distance himself from him? Eventually I think that will happen. Dad is costing him endorsement money as we speak.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

All the Lakers fans on UCLA boards insist the Lakers are taking lonzo, including some who claim to be insiders. We've all see the story you linked but they all say it's a smokescreen by the Lakers who are working on possible trades and want to create the impression they're not set on Lonzo because they believe it's lowering the trade value of DeAngelo Russell if everyone knows they're taking Lonzo.

Magic was at UCLA games all year and openly told everyone how much he loves Lonzo, so if they take someone else it pretty much means Walton or someone else is doing the drafting, not Magic.

It would be fascinating if they passed on Lonzo at this point.

Well saying your taking a different PG doesn't actually fit that narrative. By threatening to take Fox they are still trading Russell.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Fair enough. Would being passed by the Lakers open Lonzo's eyes to the negative impact of his father and cause him to distance himself from him? Eventually I think that will happen. Dad is costing him endorsement money as we speak.

Yeah, I've been wondering that too. I get the feeling though that there is more to Lavar than just the great manipulator we see. I do believe he has a close father-son relationship and that it will take a lot to get Lonzo to realize his dad creates more problems than he solves. It's so hard to know what's really going on there but when I watch the pair together in interviews I come away believing that Lonzo both loves and laughs at his father, so maybe there's hope.

 

[Russ Smith]

Fair enough. Would being passed by the Lakers open Lonzo's eyes to the negative impact of his father and cause him to distance himself from him? Eventually I think that will happen. Dad is costing him endorsement money as we speak.

It depends if they pass on him because of his dad. So far everything the Lakers have said is they're not concerned about the dad. So right now if they don't pick him it's presumably because they prefer Jackson or Fox.

If they don't pick him and then openly say it was because of the dad, then yeah I think that might open Lonzo's eyes a bit.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I would have to think that if the Lakers pass on Ball, Lavar played some part in that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It depends if they pass on him because of his dad. So far everything the Lakers have said is they're not concerned about the dad. So right now if they don't pick him it's presumably because they prefer Jackson or Fox.

If they don't pick him and then openly say it was because of the dad, then yeah I think that might open Lonzo's eyes a bit.

Could they possibly say anything else?

 

[Russ Smith]

Well saying your taking a different PG doesn't actually fit that narrative. By threatening to take Fox they are still trading Russell.

Apparently not. The belief is they don't think they can play with Russell and Lonzo together they think that's not going to get it done defensively. But they think they COULD get by defensively with Russell and Fox, they just don't think Fox brings as much offensively as Lonzo does. that's apparently the debate do they improve the defense by taking Fox or Jackson, or the offense by taking Lonzo.

So if they take Lonzo they will probably trade Russell, if they take Fox or Jackson they will probably keep him. So the Lakers fans insist that's why the smokescreen, to make it appear like they haven't made up their minds yet if they're trading Russell.

If that's true, I don't see there being a huge market for Russell, he's not a good enough shooter to be seen as a SG and while he's a flashy passer 4.8APG in 29 minutes doesn't scream PG either, right now he appears to be a tweener. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they end up drafting Lonzo and not trading Russell because they don't get any offers that blow them away. Plus there's a bunch of stat stuff out there that says Russell was actually better defending 1's than 2's last year, I don't really watch the Lakers much so I have no idea if that's true or not.

I could also see them not taking Lonzo as I've said for months I'm a huge Josh Jackson fan I think he' s better than people realize, I think playing the 4 at Kansas not only showed his versatility, but to an extent hid how good he was on offense.

 

[Russ Smith]

Could they possibly say anything else?

Apparently several GM's have said so.

Alford came out last week and said he's been asked by multiple NBA teams and he tells them all the same thing, he wasn't at our practices, he wasn't calling me, he wasn't backseat coaching etc, he was NOT a distraction at all for Lonzo's year at UCLA.

I DO think there are NBA teams that are concerned about the dad, I don't think the Lakers are one of them, at least not Magic.

Which is why it'll be fascinating to me if they don't take him, I think that would then leave everyone wondering exactly what is Magic's job?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I am with you on Russell. Right now he isn't that far off from Brandon Knight.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Apparently several GM's have said so.

Alford came out last week and said he's been asked by multiple NBA teams and he tells them all the same thing, he wasn't at our practices, he wasn't calling me, he wasn't backseat coaching etc, he was NOT a distraction at all for Lonzo's year at UCLA.

I DO think there are NBA teams that are concerned about the dad, I don't think the Lakers are one of them, at least not Magic.

Which is why it'll be fascinating to me if they don't take him, I think that would then leave everyone wondering exactly what is Magic's job?

That wasn't really what I asked. My point was, any team considering drafting him pretty much has to say something to this effect, at least publicly.

 

[Russ Smith]

That wasn't really what I asked. My point was, any team considering drafting him pretty much has to say something to this effect, at least publicly.

Ok I'm just saying apparently several GM's have made it clear they're concerned about Lavar, they haven't come out and put their name to it though so I guess that's consistent with what you're saying.