Marion (again)

[Goldfield]

I like ALOT of Marions game.

He is a great rebounder for a small skinney SF. He makes some great blocks, and can make equally nice steals.

We all know he struggles with his ball handeling & he isnt the best passer either.

I thik he is a very good SF in this league. But is his salery going to hold back the Suns from becoming a contender?

In the future I can see us givine Amare a MAX contract. If JJ keep his level of play he will also get a huge contract.

Add Marions pay and we are out of cap space quickly.


IMO SF's are the least impact positions.


I hate the idea of trading Marion, but I think he could be used as trade bait to get someone who can help this team more(like a big man). Not sure who, just a thought.

Marion is an excelent complementary player. An athletic freak. But He may be killing us with his huge pay...

 

[sly fly]

I agree.

 

[cly2tw]

Yeah, but who'd want to take him?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Once again, since people keep bringing up the trade Marion posts......

His salary will not overly effect the suns cap space. Assuming they try to sign another max FA this summer or next, along with Amare's max and JJ's extension, we will not be able to make an impact in the FA market (except for the MLE) with or without Marion.

The MLE was designed to allow players over the cap to sign mid level players. At that point, all we would need is a mid level player. The suns would already have contract rights to all of their young guys, so their extensions wouldn't be a problem. As long as the suns are competitive, JC will write the check. That much has been proven.

I believe JJ is able to be extended this summer. If that is the case, and the suns try to sign him this year, I don't think he will be able to command more than 6 million a year starting. His good performance in the second half of a contract year will get him that much. If he waits a year to sign, then we may have to pay him more. I really don't see how he could command more money than Corey Maggette (5.5 million).


Now, if we are talking about trading Marion for a GOOD center, then maybe we are on to something. However, I do not believe any team with a good center will agree to a trade for Marion. We shouldn't package him for a decent center, because well quite frankly, the organization has ben screwed on deals like that before.

Trading him for expiring contracts are beyond ridiculous.

 

[Goldfield]

Marion KC & a first could pry a center away from a team maybe. Anyway, I wish Marion made alittle less because he is a damn good player. I just wanna spend the money wisely...

 

[Joe Mama]

Sorry guys, but I don't think any team would trade a good center that the Phoenix Suns actually want for Shawn Marion, Casey Jacobsen, and a first-round draft pick. Unfortunately at this point I would say Shawn Marion has negative trade value. He's very good, but he's clearly not a maximum player.

I really think the only thing the Phoenix Suns can do with Shawn Marion is hope that he gets his shot back. He's virtually untradable until next year anyhow because of his BYC status. If he doesn't start shooting better the Phoenix Suns will not want what is offered in trade proposals. If he does improve they will probably want to keep him.

IMO Shawn Marion isn't going anywhere for a while.

Joe Mama

 

[Goldfield]

The one thing that bugs me is Shawn used to shoot a high percentage. Now he is shooting alot lower % and it hurts.

Other than that he isone of those trash guys that gets tip ins & stuff.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
IMO Shawn Marion isn't going anywhere for a while.

Joe Mama

Which is not a bad thing IF Marion works on his game.

If he can once again be automatic from 15-20 ft., then he's an All-Star.

Not really sure why his shot has become so ugly, but why in the hell does he keep shooting 3's??? That tells me right there he's not thinking correctly.

He's slowly evolving from a Big 3 to a Big 2. If he didn't rebound as well as he does, he'd really have problems.

 

[Goldfield]

True, he used to be automatic from that range.

 

[elindholm]

True, he used to be automatic from that range.

That's what lots of people on this board are fond of saying, but I confess I never felt that way. It's not like his FG% has consistently been what you'd call high -- his best season was .480, in his breakout sophomore year, but otherwise it has been lower.

For someone who makes so many layups and dunks, his shooting percentage has frankly never been terribly impressive. It was higher with Kidd, because he got more points on the break. But during his time with Marbury he was at only around 45%, which is nothing to write home about. And that was with defenses keying on him less than they're doing now. I'm not surprised that he is struggling and, aside from improving his shot selection, I don't really expect his accuracy to get much better, because his mechanics are so faulty.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
True, he used to be automatic from that range.

That's what lots of people on this board are fond of saying, but I confess I never felt that way. It's not like his FG% has consistently been what you'd call high -- his best season was .480, in his breakout sophomore year, but otherwise it has been lower.

For someone who makes so many layups and dunks, his shooting percentage has frankly never been terribly impressive. It was higher with Kidd, because he got more points on the break. But during his time with Marbury he was at only around 45%, which is nothing to write home about. And that was with defenses keying on him less than they're doing now. I'm not surprised that he is struggling and, aside from improving his shot selection, I don't really expect his accuracy to get much better, because his mechanics are so faulty.

If all the problem was his mechanics, then the solution would be to find a shooting guru to work with him. But even if his outside shooting improved, I'd still rather see him get into the paint where he can draw fouls and get offensive rebounds.

It is D'Antoni's job to get the players to do what they need to do be successful. Marion needs to get the ball on the move going to the basket. If he worked with JJ and work the weak side he could get a lot more points.

 

[elindholm]

But even if his outside shooting improved, I'd still rather see him get into the paint where he can draw fouls and get offensive rebounds.

Yes, that's part of what I meant by improving shot selection.

Regarding his mechanics, very, very few players significantly improve their fundamentals after entering the league, and fewer still improve them after getting a huge contract. It's not too rare for a player to improve his range (adding a three-point shot) or expand his repertoire of moves, but we're talking about something more general here. Only a few special, ultra-motivated players are exceptions (like Jordan, who was an ineffective jump shooter when he entered the league), and I rather doubt that Marion will be in that category. Stoudemire, on the other hand, should be a good candidate.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
But even if his outside shooting improved, I'd still rather see him get into the paint where he can draw fouls and get offensive rebounds.

Yes, that's part of what I meant by improving shot selection.

Regarding his mechanics, very, very few players significantly improve their fundamentals after entering the league, and fewer still improve them after getting a huge contract. It's not too rare for a player to improve his range (adding a three-point shot) or expand his repertoire of moves, but we're talking about something more general here. Only a few special, ultra-motivated players are exceptions (like Jordan, who was an ineffective jump shooter when he entered the league), and I rather doubt that Marion will be in that category. Stoudemire, on the other hand, should be a good candidate.

Magic couldn't shoot when he first came up. There have been many others. but you are right, the key is desire.

The Suns are going to need to have all the players stay in Phoenix over the summer to work on their games. All the players are young and have a lot to learn. The kind of skills training they need has to happen over the summer.

 

[Errntknght]

I might as well throw in my usual two cents regarding Shawn. I don't have a problem with him not being Corey Maggette in the sense of driving into traffic in order to get to the FT line. Marion has a good enough success rate pulling up on his drives before his shot can be strongly contest - and he gets in for his rebound fairly well when he does that.

My problem with him is that he spends nearly all his time on the wrong part of the floor - on the perimeter. He'd be a heck of a lot more valuable moving his butt back and forth on the baseline - and trying his hand at setting a few screens while he's there. Zarko does that more than Shawn and he's gotten some easy baskets popping out into the lane for a close in turn around shot. In fact, Shawn did it more his first year - remember the baby jumpers he used to get regularly back then. Of course, I agree that it's up D'A to make him play where he can help the team most... I'm not holding my breath for that.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Errntknght
I might as well throw in my usual two cents regarding Shawn. I don't have a problem with him not being Corey Maggette in the sense of driving into traffic in order to get to the FT line. Marion has a good enough success rate pulling up on his drives before his shot can be strongly contest - and he gets in for his rebound fairly well when he does that.

On his drives in front of the basket, you are absolutely right. But when he goes to the side he tries to avoid contact and throws up prayers. It would help if he at least tried to use the glass more.

My problem with him is that he spends nearly all his time on the wrong part of the floor - on the perimeter. He'd be a heck of a lot more valuable moving his butt back and forth on the baseline - and trying his hand at setting a few screens while he's there. Zarko does that more than Shawn and he's gotten some easy baskets popping out into the lane for a close in turn around shot. In fact, Shawn did it more his first year - remember the baby jumpers he used to get regularly back then. Of course, I agree that it's up D'A to make him play where he can help the team most... I'm not holding my breath for that.

I agree. I think Zarko has better fundimentals than Shawn due to his European training. Once he gets healthy, Zark will make a big difference.

 

[KANIDJA]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
On his drives in front of the basket, you are absolutely right. But when he goes to the side he tries to avoid contact and throws up prayers. It would help if he at least tried to use the glass more.



I agree. I think Zarko has better fundimentals than Shawn due to his European training. Once he gets healthy, Zark will make a big difference.

I actually think that reason for this is his shooting form. Because he shoots from his stomach he is avoidng contact. If he does not do this then he would get blocked lot more often.

Also, lots of people are saying that he "fills up every little category" and is a great "complimentary player". I don't think that complimenatry players get max contracts, or am I wrong. Bruce Bowen makes lot less money, is a better defender and a better shooter. If JJ and Amare develop into All Stars and Suns get to the next level I think that a player like Bowen and his salary (which would enable Suns to sign another veteran, would help the Suns lot more than Marion alone. I don't even want to talk about the salary complications if Amare and JJ, or any of our future picks or players )that we have on the roster now) develop into all stars.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by KANIDJA
I actually think that reason for this is his shooting form. Because he shoots from his stomach he is avoidng contact. If he does not do this then he would get blocked lot more often.

Also, lots of people are saying that he "fills up every little category" and is a great "complimentary player". I don't think that complimenatry players get max contracts, or am I wrong. Bruce Bowen makes lot less money, is a better defender and a better shooter. If JJ and Amare develop into All Stars and Suns get to the next level I think that a player like Bowen and his salary (which would enable Suns to sign another veteran, would help the Suns lot more than Marion alone. I don't even want to talk about the salary complications if Amare and JJ, or any of our future picks or players )that we have on the roster now) develop into all stars.

Marion is much, much better than Bruce Bowen though.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by KANIDJA
I actually think that reason for this is his shooting form. Because he shoots from his stomach he is avoidng contact. If he does not do this then he would get blocked lot more often.

Also, lots of people are saying that he "fills up every little category" and is a great "complimentary player". I don't think that complimenatry players get max contracts, or am I wrong. Bruce Bowen makes lot less money, is a better defender and a better shooter. If JJ and Amare develop into All Stars and Suns get to the next level I think that a player like Bowen and his salary (which would enable Suns to sign another veteran, would help the Suns lot more than Marion alone. I don't even want to talk about the salary complications if Amare and JJ, or any of our future picks or players )that we have on the roster now) develop into all stars.

Ok, Bowen doesn't bring that much to the game. He is a 3 point shooter, and a defensive presence. He has a very limited mid range game, and is horrible from from the FT line.

Marion claims his shot is the way it is becuase he jumps high on the release. He claims that if he shot from a normal position, he would over shoot the ball everytime. (I am not taking a stance on this, it is just his quote)

For the last time, Marion being maxed has no bearing on us being able to resign our current players. As long as the owners are willing to pay, there will be no problem. We are not in any danger of hitting the 68 million dollar mark for the future, even with an Amare max and JJ getting 6 mil a season (How can people claim he will get more than Magette based on 1 half of a season?? If anything that is putting him AT 5.5 mil).

 

[cly2tw]

Gimme Kobe, we'll talk about anything else later.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by KANIDJA
Also, lots of people are saying that he "fills up every little category" and is a great "complimentary player". I don't think that complimenatry players get max contracts, or am I wrong. Bruce Bowen makes lot less money, is a better defender and a better shooter.

This is a familiar issue. Even if true, it is irrelevant. It is pointless to compare guys at different stages of their contracts and on teams with different needs. As for Bowen, his numbers this year are not very impressive:

6.8 ppg, 39.5% from the field, 54.4% from the free throw line, 3.3 rpg, 1.1 steals per game, 1.5 assists per game.

Marion's line is:

17.8 ppg, 42.4% from the field, 88.4 for free throws, 9.5 rpg, 2.1 steals per game, and 2.5 assists per game. Except for shooting 3's, there is no other stat that Bowen is even close to Marion.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bowen is an outstanding defender and a real value at $3.8 million. But Bowen has the luxury of playing on a team with a lot of great offensive players. He would not come close to replacing what Marion does.

 

[cly2tw]

George,

I assure you that, when Amare, JJ, Lampe, Vujanic all pan out and we add Kobe in the offseason, Marion will have Bowen-like numbers the rest his days on the Suns. Just a matter of time.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by cly2tw
George,

I assure you that, when Amare, JJ, Lampe, Vujanic all pan out and we add Kobe in the offseason, Marion will have Bowen-like numbers the rest his days on the Suns. Just a matter of time.

I was shocked at how few rebounds Bowen gets. His career rebounding average is only 2.6 rpg. Casey Jacobsen is at 2.4 rpg this season and is at 4.5 rpg over the last 8 games. So no, I don't think Shawns rebounding would fall to Bruce's level.