Marion for MVP campaign: It's time

[dreamcastrocks]

That's because Marion is such a great finisher.

Or not a great passer...

 

[Mainstreet]

Or not a great passer...

Are you buying the argument that Garnett is the best complimentary player in the league like Cheesebeef suggests? Maybe Garnett is just like Shawn... an All-Star complimentary player.

Because of Garnett's height, I actually feel he might be able to carry a team to a Championship where Shawn almost single handedly could not. I know you cannot always compare players of different height fairly. However, IMO if Shawn were 5" taller the Suns would be counting Championships.

Again, I really like Garnett as a player. Too bad he is not in a Suns uniform.

Nice chat.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Are you buying the argument that Garnett is the best complimentary player in the league like Cheesebeef suggests? Maybe Garnett is just like Shawn... an All-Star complimentary player.

the thing that makes Garnett a complimentary player is his mind-set IMO. He just isn't one of those guys who will take over games. I think that Marion actually does more with less basketball ability as he's not the ball-handler or passer that Garnett is, but ultimately, I think Marion falls into the same trap of being a little weak in the knees come crunch time. I know people are going to take that as me ripping on Marion but I'm really not - there aren't a hell of a lot of players in this league who DON'T GO WEAK IN THE KNEES come crunch time - it's what separates the superstar players from the stars.

 

[az1965]

Marion is an all-star and a key piece of Suns' core, but not an MVP!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Are you buying the argument that Garnett is the best complimentary player in the league like Cheesebeef suggests? Maybe Garnett is just like Shawn... an All-Star complimentary player.

Because of Garnett's height, I actually feel he might be able to carry a team to a Championship where Shawn almost single handedly could not. I know you cannot always compare players of different height fairly. However, IMO if Shawn were 5" taller the Suns would be counting Championships.

Again, I really like Garnett as a player. Too bad he is not in a Suns uniform.

Nice chat.

Eh, I am not sure about that one. I am on the side of the argument that states that Garnett is a better player than Marion, and does just as many things (albeit different) than Marion.

I don't think of Garnett as a complimentary player. He has never had that role his entire career.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't think of Garnett as a complimentary player. He has never had that role his entire career.

and thus the reason his team has only gotten out of the first round ONCE in his entire career (and that was largely because of Sam Cassel's leadership/making huge shots in the playoffs... and went Sam went down, the Wolves went out with a whimper). The guy is a 7 foot version of Scottie Pippen - he'd make the greatest second banana in the world, but he ain't a leader/first banana.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

and thus the reason his team has only gotten out of the first round ONCE in his entire career (and that was largely because of Sam Cassel's leadership/making huge shots in the playoffs... and went Sam went down, the Wolves went out with a whimper). The guy is a 7 foot version of Scottie Pippen - he'd make the greatest second banana in the world, but he ain't a leader/first banana.

Good opinion, but he still has never been in that role. Garnett has always been the first option on offense. When he had Cassell and Spreewell, they were the roleplayers. Not Garnett.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good opinion, but he still has never been in that role. Garnett has always been the first option on offense. When he had Cassell and Spreewell, they were the roleplayers. Not Garnett.

sorry, but Cassel was the leader of that team and it doesn't matter if he's ever been in that role - it's what his ulitmate role SHOULD be, and probably will be after this season when he's more than likely traded.

Why do you think people keep saying KG would be great teamed up with AI or Kobe? It's because he's really a second banana forced into being a first option.

 

[Mainstreet]

the thing that makes Garnett a complimentary player is his mind-set IMO. He just isn't one of those guys who will take over games. I think that Marion actually does more with less basketball ability as he's not the ball-handler or passer that Garnett is, but ultimately, I think Marion falls into the same trap of being a little weak in the knees come crunch time. I know people are going to take that as me ripping on Marion but I'm really not - there aren't a hell of a lot of players in this league who DON'T GO WEAK IN THE KNEES come crunch time - it's what separates the superstar players from the stars.

I really don't think Shawn is a player that goes "WEAK IN THE KNEES" at crunch time. IMO, I think what happens to Shawn in the playoffs is that the other team generally slows the ball down to a half court game and Shawn has to guard and shoot over bigger and taller opponents. Obviously Shawn is a tailor made fit for a running team. Now, if Amare stays healthy in the middle I think Shawn will still get a lot of rebounds and baskets even if the Suns can't run because the defenders will have to collapse on Amare.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

sorry, but Cassel was the leader of that team and it doesn't matter if he's ever been in that role - it's what his ulitmate role SHOULD be, and probably will be after this season when he's more than likely traded.

Why do you think people keep saying KG would be great teamed up with AI or Kobe? It's because he's really a second banana forced into being a first option.

Wait, so you are saying that Cassell was the first option on offense? If so, then Garnett has already been a roleplayer.

I contend that he has not. Cassell was a roleplayer on that team. Hell, he is a roleplayer right now for the Clips as Brand is the #1 option.

Garnett has always been the focal point on offense. Maybe with AI, it would change, but Minnesota doesn't have a chance to get him.

I am not saying that we would be better as being a complimentary player, because he may be. I am not going to say that he has though, when he hasn't yet.

 

[elindholm]

Cassell took more big shots that season than Garnett did.

That said, I still think Garnett is a first-option player. His problem is that he's always had a weak supporting cast. For example, right now, if you removed the best player from each NBA team and then compared what's left behind, Minnesota would be by far the worst team in the league. And yet Garnett has them around .500, which is quite an accomplishment.

No player in the NBA can excel without star-level teammates. Look at any team that has won the title or even made the finals over the past 25 years, and they've all had better depth than Minnesota ever has, except maybe the one Cassell/Sprewell year.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Shawn is incredibly valuable to what the Suns do, and I think, with what he gives this team night in and night out, that he should be winning the Dan Majerle Hustle Award every year. There are only two guys I can think of in this league that could replace Marion on this team and match or better the production Marion gives us, and that's Kevin Garnett and Lamar Odom. He is truly in a special class. That being said, he not the league's MVP for a few reasons.

1) He does not have the ability to become a # 1 scoring option on a team and carry them on his back to a playoff berth.


2) He is not an offensive playmaker, whether it be creating his own shot or becoming a distributor to make the game easier for his teammates.

3) He can't be the league's MVP if he's not even the team's MVP- that title belongs to Nash. Marion and Amare are 2A and 2B, and I dont think we win a championship if any of those three go down for a significant amount of time come the playoffs.

 

[Mainstreet]

Garnett does not have a problem that Nash couldn't fix instantly. IMO, if Nash and Garnett were teamed up for their whole careers they would be better than Stockton and Malone. Garnett would be scary with Nash feeding him the ball.

However, I'm keeping Nash.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Cassell took more big shots that season than Garnett did.

That said, I still think Garnett is a first-option player. His problem is that he's always had a weak supporting cast. For example, right now, if you removed the best player from each NBA team and then compared what's left behind, Minnesota would be by far the worst team in the league. And yet Garnett has them around .500, which is quite an accomplishment.

No player in the NBA can excel without star-level teammates. Look at any team that has won the title or even made the finals over the past 25 years, and they've all had better depth than Minnesota ever has, except maybe the one Cassell/Sprewell year.

You can be a clutch player like Cassell was, and still be a roleplayer. see Robert Horry.

 

[Bufalay]

Garnett does not have a problem that Nash couldn't fix instantly. IMO, if Nash and Garnett were teamed up for their whole careers they would be better than Stockton and Malone.

but not as good as nash and amare

 

[F-Dog]

I've decided that Marion is probably closest to Ben Wallace in terms of impact. Like Ben, Marion builds a 'possession gap' in favor of his team through steals, blocks and contested rebounds.


Also like Wallace, Marion will never be seriously considered for MVP. I think it's still possible to assauge his ego, though--all the Suns have to do is get rid of direct deposit and go back to handing out paychecks in the locker room every two weeks.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You can be a clutch player like Cassell was, and still be a roleplayer. see Robert Horry.

wow, I think that's an incredibly bad comparison. Cassel averaged 20 ppg and 7 assts. and WAS the first option at the end of T-Wolves games. Both he and Garnett were first options type players on that team, but i was Cassel who made them go, just as he did the Clippers last year. Or do you think it's just coincidence that both Garnett and Brand had their best years statistically and team record wise when Sam was on his game and both saw their numbers drop and their teams fall apart when Sam wasn't on his game the following year.

Sam ain't a role player - he was the leader of that Wolves team, just like he was the leader of that Clippers team last year.

 

[panfolk]

I'm just happy to see Gaddabout posting a thread

 

[jibikao]

and thus the reason his team has only gotten out of the first round ONCE in his entire career (and that was largely because of Sam Cassel's leadership/making huge shots in the playoffs... and went Sam went down, the Wolves went out with a whimper). The guy is a 7 foot version of Scottie Pippen - he'd make the greatest second banana in the world, but he ain't a leader/first banana.

I agree. Even Wolf's ex-coach said something like KG is not in the league of a few players that can force you to change the game: Nash, Dirk, Lebron and a few more. He said something like KG isn't a dominating player. When the game is on the line, he looks to "help" the team rather than taking it over. Even Pippen said KG is not the same player in the 4th quarter when the team really needs him. I think that's KG's biggest downfall. He is just too supporting to be a leader. He is an excellent player with EXCELLENT stats but unless Wolves figure out how to win with KG being the leader, it probably won't happen. KG may just retire as a Wolves player with only one trip to WCF, once.

 

[PetryJr]

unless Wolves figure out how to win with KG being the leader, it probably won't happen.

So... are you saying that, if the Wolves don't win with Garnett as a leader, they won't win with him as a leader? Interesting...

 

[Gaddabout]

I'm just happy to see Gaddabout posting a thread

Thanks, Pan. I didn't really have anything of substance to add when the Suns were really bad. I definitely don't have much substance to add now that they're really good.

I only feel qualified when the Suns are mediocre. It's my area of expertise.

 

[jibikao]

So... are you saying that, if the Wolves don't win with Garnett as a leader, they won't win with him as a leader? Interesting...

You got me!!! Then yes, KG probably can't lead his team to playoff success. He needs to be 2nd option like Pippen.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

wow, I think that's an incredibly bad comparison. Cassel averaged 20 ppg and 7 assts. and WAS the first option at the end of T-Wolves games. Both he and Garnett were first options type players on that team, but i was Cassel who made them go, just as he did the Clippers last year. Or do you think it's just coincidence that both Garnett and Brand had their best years statistically and team record wise when Sam was on his game and both saw their numbers drop and their teams fall apart when Sam wasn't on his game the following year.

Sam ain't a role player - he was the leader of that Wolves team, just like he was the leader of that Clippers team last year.

Whoa whoa whoa, so now you are saying that because he scored 20/7, he was the leader? Does what does that make Marion? Look, Cassell is good at doing what he does, he can hit a big shot in the 4th Q, but that doesn't make him a focal point of the offense. If thats the case, then Robert Horry could be a team's leader. Garnett has ALWAYS been that team's leader. If you don't see that, fine. If you don't want to admit it, fine, but it is the case.

Again, Garnett may be better in a complimentary role, but he has never been that role, so you can't compare at this time.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Whoa whoa whoa, so now you are saying that because he scored 20/7, he was the leader? Does what does that make Marion? Look, Cassell is good at doing what he does, he can hit a big shot in the 4th Q, but that doesn't make him a focal point of the offense. If thats the case, then Robert Horry could be a team's leader. Garnett has ALWAYS been that team's leader. If you don't see that, fine. If you don't want to admit it, fine, but it is the case.

First, pointing out that he averaged 20 and 7 was in reference to the ridiculous assertion that Sam was a Robert Horry-esque role player which you made above. As far as him being leader, I don't need stats to show Sam's pretty much the leader of every team he's ever been on, good or bad. Even KG was calling Sam the leader of that club, as Elton Brand was calling Sam the leader of the Clippers last year. It's got nothiong to do with stats and everything to do with the way people play and who takes the big shots and controls the game - and Sam did both his first year with Wolves and the Clippers and once his game fell apart, so did those clubs.

As far as your assertion that somehow me saying Sam was the leader somehow means I'm saying Marion is a leader is ridiculous as well as Sam does NONE of the things Sam does - as he doesn't have the ball in his hands, doesn't make his teamates better and never takes or makes big shots.

you didn't watch a lot of Wolves games that year, did you? Sam was basically the Wolves Barkley back in the KJ days - KJ was always the leader of that team but they were perenial playoff busts, then Barkley got here and there was the new sherrif in town - Sam played the same type of role. To keep comparing him to Robert Horrry is the height of stupidity.

KG is best suited to be a complimentary player plain and simple - he just doesn't have the mindset to be a take over player, nor hit the big shot.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

First, pointing out that he averaged 20 and 7 was in reference to the ridiculous assertion that Sam was a Robert Horry-esque role player which you made above. As far as him being leader, I don't need stats to show Sam's pretty much the leader of every team he's ever been on, good or bad. Even KG was calling Sam the leader of that club, as Elton Brand was calling Sam the leader of the Clippers last year. It's got nothiong to do with stats and everything to do with the way people play and who takes the big shots and controls the game - and Sam did both his first year with Wolves and the Clippers and once his game fell apart, so did those clubs.

As far as your assertion that somehow me saying Sam was the leader somehow means I'm saying Marion is a leader is ridiculous as well as Sam does NONE of the things Sam does - as he doesn't have the ball in his hands, doesn't make his teamates better and never takes or makes big shots.

you didn't watch a lot of Wolves games that year, did you? Sam was basically the Wolves Barkley back in the KJ days - KJ was always the leader of that team but they were perenial playoff busts, then Barkley got here and there was the new sherrif in town - Sam played the same type of role. To keep comparing him to Robert Horrry is the height of stupidity.

KG is best suited to be a complimentary player plain and simple - he just doesn't have the mindset to be a take over player, nor hit the big shot.

You obviously have problems with reading comprehension, because I did not compare him to Robert Horry. I mentioned Robert Horry as an example on how that you could be a clutch shooter, and still be a role player. If you want to say that I compared the two, more power to you. It just makes you look silly.

A leader of every team he has been on???? Do you think that Sam Cassell was the leader of the Houston Rockets back-to back championship teams?

Look, Sam is a good player, and it looks like that we will have to agree on disagreeing. How anyone believes that Cassell was the leader of the Wolves above Garnett is beyond me.