Marion to Utah?

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Hopefully the suns tried to pull the 'always injured' card in hopes to add millsap to the deal. AK would have to come with a backup big since he is a risk

 

[elindholm]

1) Marions scores alot with no plays called for him

This is more of the Marion myth. He scores a lot of points with no half-court plays run for him, because mainly he gets dunks on the break or before the defense is fully set. His scoring dives in tough playoff series because the defense takes those easy points away.

Trust me, Kirilenko could sprint downcourt and dunk as well as Marion. Well, if he's healthy, that is.

AK doesnt finish as well as marion(eg alleyoops),one way DA trys to loosen the defense up when they try to use marions man on amare or Nash in a double team.

How many alley-oops did Marion have against the Spurs? We shouldn't care about regular-season highlight reels. Those aren't worth the virtual film they're printed on.

3) I like AK's unselfishness, he's a much better passer, but not a better shooter, not at all.

That's true. We'd have to hope that Kirilenko has the good sense not to take bad shots. Generally he has shown that he does.

One thing he cant do is play D at the guard position, he gets eaten up, unlike Marion who is pretty effective guarding Nashs man, allowing Nash to guard a designated offensive stiff.

Kirilenko has looked like a pretty good wing defender to me when I've seen him, but I'll admit I haven't studied him carefully. His arms are very long and his lateral quickness (again, "when healthy") is superior to Marion's. And the strategy of putting Marion on Nash's man has been pretty much exposed as a failure by the Spurs.

Defensively, Kirilenko is a big upgrade over Marion, period. Well, so long as he's healthy.

 

[Chaplin]

Defensively, Kirilenko is a big upgrade over Marion, period. Well, so long as he's healthy.

The thing is, if you have to qualify everything you say about Kirilenko with "well, so long as he's healthy", it's a bad idea.

Oh, and why on god's green earth is RealGM's message board where all these supposed "insiders" post? We have a couple of them here, but they never come on and give detailed descriptions of rumor and innuendo. What makes RealGM so special?

 

[elindholm]

The thing is, if you have to qualify everything you say about Kirilenko with "well, so long as he's healthy", it's a bad idea.

I basically agree. The Suns' medical staff would have to be completely sold on Kirilenko's current condition, and/or more concerned about Marion's foot than they are letting on.

Oh, and why on god's green earth is RealGM's message board where all these supposed "insiders" post? We have a couple of them here, but they never come on and give detailed descriptions of rumor and innuendo. What makes RealGM so special?

Nothing. I'm sure the reports are bogus, but even considering them hypothetically gives us something to talk about.

 

[nowagimp]

This is more of the Marion myth. He scores a lot of points with no half-court plays run for him, because mainly he gets dunks on the break or before the defense is fully set. His scoring dives in tough playoff series because the defense takes those easy points away.

Trust me, Kirilenko could sprint downcourt and dunk as well as Marion. Well, if he's healthy, that is.



How many alley-oops did Marion have against the Spurs? We shouldn't care about regular-season highlight reels. Those aren't worth the virtual film they're printed on.



That's true. We'd have to hope that Kirilenko has the good sense not to take bad shots. Generally he has shown that he does.



Kirilenko has looked like a pretty good wing defender to me when I've seen him, but I'll admit I haven't studied him carefully. His arms are very long and his lateral quickness (again, "when healthy") is superior to Marion's. And the strategy of putting Marion on Nash's man has been pretty much exposed as a failure by the Spurs.

Defensively, Kirilenko is a big upgrade over Marion, period. Well, so long as he's healthy.

Yeah shawn didnt get many lobs against the spurs, they had someone on him, but that defender at least wasnt cheating over as much on nash or amare who were more effective because of the better spacing. Its a choice and with AK the defender will be cheating over more.

Kirilenkos lateral quickness is way down after the injuries, he definitley slower than marion by quite a bit. With the kind of injuries he had its not suprising at all, its expected. Guys were blowing by him out on the perimeter in the playoffs off the dribble pretty easily when he tried to defend the 3pter. The jazz disciplined team D concept limited the damage, but I saw it, his on ball defense is way down. On the suns amare will be backing him up on D when he gets smoked, uh ohhh! I do like his help D, as he is a great shot blocker if he stays around the lane area.

When the shot clock is winding down, opposing teams will guard everyone but AK and diaw, making him take the shot, just like they do with marion but he will shoot less accurately even than shawn(about 5% less accurate from 15 ft out). Its not about him having the good sense not to shoot, he will HAVE to do it by design, like marion often had to shoot with the clock winding down when defenders guarded the passing lanes instead of him. THe spacing on the floor will be a little worse, and the suns will be in the position of needing more minutes out of guys like grant hill and diaw. Whos knows maybe strawberry will be a real find.

 

[elindholm]

When the shot clock is winding down, opposing teams will guard everyone but AK and diaw, making him take the shot, just like they do with marion but he will shoot less accurately even than shawn(about 5% less accurate from 15 ft out). Its not about him having the good sense not to shoot, he will HAVE to do it by design, like marion often had to shoot with the clock winding down when defenders guarded the passing lanes instead of him.

I'll accept the rest of your analysis, but not this. How many times did Marion "have to shoot with the clock winding down" last season? Three? The Suns rarely found themselves up against the shotclock anyway, but when they did, it was usually a guard or the spacey Diaw with the ball, not Marion. Marion isn't a playmaker anyway, so generally the only reason he touches the ball is when he is in what he considers to be a scoring position.

I can believe that Kirilenko is an even worse perimeter shooter than Marion, but I disagree that defenses would have any success forcing him to shoot. After all, unlike Marion, Kirilenko knows how to move without the ball and create opportunities for his teammates.

 

[nowagimp]

I'll accept the rest of your analysis, but not this. How many times did Marion "have to shoot with the clock winding down" last season? Three? The Suns rarely found themselves up against the shotclock anyway, but when they did, it was usually a guard or the spacey Diaw with the ball, not Marion. Marion isn't a playmaker anyway, so generally the only reason he touches the ball is when he is in what he considers to be a scoring position.

I can believe that Kirilenko is an even worse perimeter shooter than Marion, but I disagree that defenses would have any success forcing him to shoot. After all, unlike Marion, Kirilenko knows how to move without the ball and create opportunities for his teammates.

Of course the suns dont want the ball in the hands of marion with the shot clock winding down, but that is the plan of just about every opposing defense and definitely POPs, and averys strategy. Force the ball out of Nashs hands, try to get diaw or marion to take a last second shot with their men packed into the lane area to limit amare/nash. I did see this happen alot in the playoffs and it wasnt the suns intent, it was the will of the opposing defense, use marions/diaws men to pack the paint and force the ball out of Nashs hands, works like a dream. It is what I would try to force if I was the opposing coach. Leandro throwing up a contested runner is also not a bad idea, or Raja shooting off the dribble, but diaw or marion with the clock winding down is a dream strategy. And against the spurs, mavs, and just about any competent defensive team, the suns didnt get that many fastbreaks, they had to be effective in the half court to win against good teams.

 

[azirish]

Of course the suns dont want the ball in the hands of marion with the shot clock winding down, but that is the plan of just about every opposing defense and definitely POPs, and averys strategy. Force the ball out of Nashs hands, try to get diaw or marion to take a last second shot with their men packed into the lane area to limit amare/nash. I did see this happen alot in the playoffs and it wasnt the suns intent, it was the will of the opposing defense, use marions/diaws men to pack the paint and force the ball out of Nashs hands, works like a dream. It is what I would try to force if I was the opposing coach. Leandro throwing up a contested runner is also not a bad idea, or Raja shooting off the dribble, but diaw or marion with the clock winding down is a dream strategy. And against the spurs, mavs, and just about any competent defensive team, the suns didnt get that many fastbreaks, they had to be effective in the half court to win against good teams.

One of the reasons that Hill becomes such a big deal is that his play should reduce the minutes that Marion and Diaw are on the floor together. Leaving Hill alone to cover Nash, Stoudemire, and Bell/Barbosa does not strike me a smart plan. IMHO, either Marion or Diaw look to the team's 5th option. The same would be true with AK.

 

[elindholm]

I did see this happen alot in the playoffs and it wasnt the suns intent, it was the will of the opposing defense, use marions/diaws men to pack the paint and force the ball out of Nashs hands, works like a dream.

That must have been some dream, because it has little to do with what happened during the Spurs series. The Spurs pressed out on the perimeter, denying the three-point shot, and trapped Nash. They didn't "pack the paint" unless Stoudemire already had the ball, when they collapsed on him. And even if they had, it wouldn't have mattered to Marion, since he hangs out on the perimeter anyway and couldn't beat my grandmother off the dribble.

 

[nowagimp]

That must have been some dream, because it has little to do with what happened during the Spurs series. The Spurs pressed out on the perimeter, denying the three-point shot, and trapped Nash. They didn't "pack the paint" unless Stoudemire already had the ball, when they collapsed on him. And even if they had, it wouldn't have mattered to Marion, since he hangs out on the perimeter anyway and couldn't beat my grandmother off the dribble.

I didnt see marion defended at the 3pt line at all in the playoffs, spurs or lakers. I also didnt see diaw defended outside 18', they held to nash and raja/barbs, and left diaw and marion alone out there.

 

[nowagimp]

One of the reasons that Hill becomes such a big deal is that his play should reduce the minutes that Marion and Diaw are on the floor together. Leaving Hill alone to cover Nash, Stoudemire, and Bell/Barbosa does not strike me a smart plan. IMHO, either Marion or Diaw look to the team's 5th option. The same would be true with AK.

I agree george, Hill can dribble penetrate and pull up for the mid range jumper, a suns weakness outside Nash. If Hill can stay healthy, and his minutes in the regular season must be limited to keep him healthy, he can be a big factor in the halfcourt. His passing ability combined with his scoring skills can prevent marion/diaw or even worse, AK/diaw(if that happens) from destroying the spacing by limiting their coincident minutes.

 

[elindholm]

I didnt see marion defended at the 3pt line at all in the playoffs, spurs or lakers.

No, of course they didn't defend Marion, because they want him to shoot. I meant they closed out on the other three-point shooters.

I also didnt see diaw defended outside 18', they held to nash and raja/barbs, and left diaw and marion alone out there.

Diaw was usually covered. He spent a lot of time roaming around the top of the circle, but the defense wasn't ignoring him from there. He made enough set shots to get some attention.

But anyway, Diaw is on the team regardless, so he doesn't enter into this discussion. Between Kirilenko and Marion, I'd be more comfortable as a Suns fan seeing Kirilenko open from 20 feet than seeing Marion there, because Kirilenko is more likely to make a good decision.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

But anyway, Diaw is on the team regardless, so he doesn't enter into this discussion. Between Kirilenko and Marion, I'd be more comfortable as a Suns fan seeing Kirilenko open from 20 feet than seeing Marion there, because Kirilenko is more likely to make a good decision.

Go make that comment on a Jazz board and be laughed off of it. Kirilenko was literally crying tears to the media because he had to play 3rd banana in the playoffs. That's going to magically disappear here.

Some of you guys talk about how ignorant the rest of the world is to the real Shawn Marion. I recommend those same people go learn what they can about Kirilenko.

 

[nowagimp]

Go make that comment on a Jazz board and be laughed off of it. Kirilenko was literally crying tears to the media because he had to play 3rd banana in the playoffs. That's going to magically disappear here.

Some of you guys talk about how ignorant the rest of the world is to the real Shawn Marion. I recommend those same people go learn what they can about Kirilenko.

The league treats AK just like marion, only he is a 30% 3 pt shooter compared to 35% for marion. Kirilenko has an akward shot release, it looks even less reproducible than marions, hence his 7% lower FT's. Neither guy can score off the dribble, both cant get past eindholms grandma, who I must admit really has game!

The idea of forcing the ball into these guys hands with less than 8 seconds on the clock is an ADMITTED strategy, not a guess. Year before last, Jason Terry pretty much stated it word for word, its averys strategy. And we know where avery learned his strategy from : POPs. I even noticed the warriors use it against the Jazz.

 

[azirish]

Neither AK nor Marion are good outside shooters. The only plus for AK is that he doesn't shoot as many. Marion took his fewest three point shoots since 2001-02 which was 248. In the last three seasons, AK took 77, 117, and 75 attempts.

 

[elindholm]

Go make that comment on a Jazz board and be laughed off of it. Kirilenko was literally crying tears to the media because he had to play 3rd banana in the playoffs.

Yes, I know that Utah and Kirilenko are unhappy with each other. That's the only reason that discussing this isn't a complete waste of time.

That's going to magically disappear here.

It might. Sloan is a legendary hardass. Kirilenko may have been upset because Sloan was putting pressure on him that he felt he couldn't address without more offensive touches. I don't know whether that's true, but it's possible.

Some of you guys talk about how ignorant the rest of the world is to the real Shawn Marion. I recommend those same people go learn what they can about Kirilenko.

"Some of us" know more than you seem willing to give us credit for.

 

[slinslin]

Utah gets 21.5M$
Shawn Marion
Marcus Banks
Eric Piatkowski

Phoenix gets 17.7M$
Andrei Kirilenko
Jarron Collins
Ronnie Brewer

Phoenix signs PJ Brown to a 1 year 2.3M$ contract and we still save 1.5M$. Works perfectly for me.

 

[pokerface]

I dont know man....Marion is better and more durable but Kirilenko is younger with a longer contract (which is a good or bad thing depending how you look at it). I dont like the idea of Marion just walking next season and getting nothing back...AK could help keep the Suns elite longer. Marion is as good as gone next season because some team will swoop in and outbid us I'm sure. If we lose Marion for nothing will we wish we had AK?

I think Kirilenko would flourish under D'Antoni. I hear from Jazz fans Sloan is tough on his players with negative reinforcement while D'Antoni is more of a positive type guy. I think Kirilenko would respond good to that with his fragile kind of ego. Nash also with his positive thinking and passing would help AK's game. I hear on the Jazz board the PG in Utah wouldnt even pass to Kirilenko much. Nash would set up AK with easy shots and get his confidence going. Plus many Jazz fans feel Kirilenko's game would fit in well with our system...not that Marions game doesnt of course.

I think we should roll the dice on AK. If Marions contract was a year or two longer then I'd keep him but thats not the case. Plus it might be exciting to see what AK could do for the Suns. I think he'd be revitalized out in Phoenix.

 

[slinslin]

Well forget it now anyway, Kirilenkos threat to play in europe and Deron Williams ripping him for his work ethic and social skills totally killed any value he had.

 

[Mainstreet]

I dont like the idea of Marion just walking next season and getting nothing back...

I don't know. The Suns really like their money. Selling draft picks for money or to save money seems to be in vogue. However, I'm with you. I want something for Marion.

 

[azirish]

However, I'm with you. I want something for Marion.

There is always a remote chance that some idiot GM with cap space will pay him vastly more than the MLE, but I find it unlikely. It is far more likely that he can only get serious money as part of a sign and trade.

 

[pokerface]

There is always a remote chance that some idiot GM with cap space will pay him vastly more than the MLE, but I find it unlikely. It is far more likely that he can only get serious money as part of a sign and trade.

People thought it was unlikely that Joe Johnson would get that rediculous money he did. Never underestimate another teams greed for talent.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The big difference between Marion and JJ is age. JJ's youth made it a gamble that could really pay off. With Marion, there's no more upside than what you see.

 

[pokerface]

The big difference between Marion and JJ is age. JJ's youth made it a gamble that could really pay off. With Marion, there's no more upside than what you see.

There's no more upside because he's a current allstar! Jeesh mon...

 

[asudevil83]

There's no more upside because he's a current allstar! Jeesh mon...

a disgruntled all-star that does not have the ability to create his own shot