Markelle Fultz

[JCSunsfan]

My comment about bust free wasn't supposed to be there but I



Ball - Penny / Kidd cross
Fultz - Westbrook

Much better comparison. Fultz is better offensively and not nearly as good defensively as Payton. Like Westbrook, I am concerned that he has to be the ONLY guy on the team in order to really shine. We have not seen Fultz function with decent teammates. That can be a negative as well as a positive.

I am not really a promoter of each of these players. I am just trying evaluate them each as objectively as I can.

 

[slinslin]

Fultz can shoot, the Westbrook comparison is not very good.

I am going to quote the head scout from Draftexpress once again "best comparison he heard for Fultz is John Wall with a jumpshot".

And Ball is miles away from being a Kidd/Penny cross lol. He is nothing like Penny Hardway at all, not even 10% of the offensive arsenal.

 

[slinslin]

Ball for me is about as bust free as it comes - fultz includedif he can't shoot, defend or run fast it doesn't matter as he's one of the great college passers.

Ball is about as bust free as Michael Carter-Williams, Tyler Ennis, Kyle Anderson, Kendall Marshall.

 

[3rdside]

that comment wasn't supposed to be in there as I'm totally tempting fate but it is what it is..I still take him #1.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Ball is about as bust free as Michael Carter-Williams, Tyler Ennis, Kyle Anderson, Kendall Marshall.

Comparing mid round lottery and late draft picks to a potential #1 doesn't really prove your point.

While Ball isn't my top choice, I am fairly confident he will still be an excellent / all star level player. I just think Fultz is a superstar level player.

 

[3rdside]

Fultz can shoot, the Westbrook comparison is not very good.

I am going to quote the head scout from Draftexpress once again "best comparison he heard for Fultz is John Wall with a jumpshot".

And Ball is miles away from being a Kidd/Penny cross lol. He is nothing like Penny Hardway at all, not even 10% of the offensive arsenal.

He plays like Kidd and has the frame of Penny - by all means give it your best shot if you think otherwise.

 

[Russ Smith]

You should recuse yourself from this conversation, of COURSE you prefer Ball over Fultz. We all know that!

Fultz sat instead of playing in a meaningless game in a lost season. That doesn't bother me much. You're also assuming that he himself decided to sit and not the coaching staff. What insider information do you have? His best chance at success was always in the NBA, not college. Ball, though, had a real chance of going far into the NCAA tournament. So that argument doesn't really hold much water.

He didn't sit once, he sat 6 of the last 8 including the last 4. For those keeping score, he sat 2 road games, then came back and played the last 2 home games of the season, and thus his career, 19 and 26 in those 2 games. He then sat the last 4, 3 were road losses, the 4th a neutral site loss in the first round of the conf tourney. A cynic would suggest he played the last 2 home games so the fans could thank him for his 8 months of hard work, and sat all the rest of them.

Romar said the doctors didn't clear him, if you read Percy Allen the local reporter for them he was pretty open that nobody really believed Fultz couldn't play he was just sitting to protect himself. now I'm fine with sitting to protect yourself, I would just prefer he said that. but I guess we'll find out, if the workouts start and we start hearing rumors Fultz has a knee injury then I'll apologize for questioning him but right now it looks like he just didn't want to play anymore since it didn't matter so he sat.

And yes I'm biased towards Lonzo but I do think it's related to the difference between them. One of them played a huge role in turning a team around, the other had almost no impact on the w/l record. UW lost their last 13 games, 7 with Fultz, 6 without fultz. The average margin of loss in the games he played was 14.7, the average margin of loss in the games he sat was 16.7. UCLA beat them by 41 and 32 during that stretch, 41 with Fultz, at UW, 32 without Fultz at Pauley. they weren't appreciably better with Fultz in the lineup.

 

[Russ Smith]

Maybe...but GMs see a significant drop off between Ball and Fultz and the rest of the PGs.

BTW, people were throwing out their comparisons...here is mine:

Ball - Anfernee Hardaway
Fultz - Gary Payton

Wow, one of the best defensive PG's in recent history compared to a guy who was a terrible college defender?

Lonzo was not exactly the glove himself, but he was a much better college defender than Fultz was.

 

[Russ Smith]

Fox might turn out to be better than Fultz and Ball. I don't think there is a huge difference between these three PGs.

I actually agree if he can improve his outside shot he has a chance to be as good or better. he's the best defender of the 3 and I think he's also the best athlete of the 3.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Wow, one of the best defensive PG's in recent history compared to a guy who was a terrible college defender?

Lonzo was not exactly the glove himself, but he was a much better college defender than Fultz was.

I have already posted that NBA GMs feel Fultz is a 2 way player and Ball is not. Please do some research and stop with your nonsense.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

This is from NBA Draft.net on Fultz's defense

Rebounds and blocks shots well for a guard … Tough and willing defender; shows great potential with his size, length, and quickness ... Anticipates and jumps passing lanes … Plays with great confidence … A competitor ...

NBA GMs Poll on Ball's Defense per Chad Ford

Still, Ball's porous defense causes many who prefer Fultz to wonder whether Ball can have the same impact on both ends of the floor.

Under Fultz on his draft profile Defense is listed as one of Fultz's 3 strengths.

On Draftexpress the breakdown of Fultz's 4 strengths defense is one of them.


Just stop with the nonsense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We have had two cases where players forced their way out before their rookie season - Francis refused to go to Vancouver and Williams wouldn't play for us. That may be impossible now, but we thought it was impossible before Francis did it. I'm fairly sure players can force their way out after their rookie contract plus one year and stay within the current rules.

Francis did that

We have had two cases where players forced their way out before their rookie season - Francis refused to go to Vancouver and Williams wouldn't play for us. That may be impossible now, but we thought it was impossible before Francis did it. I'm fairly sure players can force their way out after their rookie contract plus one year and stay within the current rules.

francis did that almost 20 years ago. Much different time. Is the williams you're mentioning jason williams the murderer? Also very different time. And the fact that you can come up with only two among hundreds of players and nearly 20 years under Mich different cba's is all I need to know about the probability of this happening (virtually zero).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't know, it's why I asked the question.

After his rookie season, what happens, we can offer him the most money? I was thinking that if that's 'all' we can do and his marketing potential is so much larger in a place like LA then it's not much of a safe guard.

Again, just thoughts and questions.

In today's age the marketing potential is not a differentiator. See Durant in okc and curry in gs.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Maybe...but GMs see a significant drop off between Ball and Fultz and the rest of the PGs.

BTW, people were throwing out their comparisons...here is mine:

Ball - Anfernee Hardaway
Fultz - Gary Payton

Hmm I don't see those at all. Ball is not as dynamic as penny. Fultz is not the lock down defender that Payton was.

 

[Russ Smith]

This is from NBA Draft.net on Fultz's defense



NBA GMs Poll on Ball's Defense per Chad Ford



Under Fultz on his draft profile Defense is listed as one of Fultz's 3 strengths.

On Draftexpress the breakdown of Fultz's 4 strengths defense is one of them.


Just stop with the nonsense.

And yet here's Draft Express on Fultz' defense.

"The one area Fultz will undoubtedly have to improve significantly in the NBA is on the defensive end. He actually has the tools to be very effective here, as his size, strength, length, agility and instincts give him an excellent foundation to build off. He showed the ability to sit down in a stance, slide his feet and be fairly impactful in spurts, and is already quite a playmaker in terms of his ability to get in the passing lanes and come up with blocks thanks to his tremendous anticipation skills. Fultz just hasn't demonstrated the mentality or fundamentals needed to be anywhere near consistent in this area. His intensity level can be incredibly low here at times, as he loses his focus easily, doesn't get in a stance, shows poor technique on closeouts, and will look very lazy getting back on defense. NBA teams will have to ask themselves how much of this was due to his situation, on a team that has struggled defensively for years before his arrival, and how much was due to him? The answer is likely a mix of the two, and this is undoubtedly something Fultz will have to work on, with a strong coaching staff and veteran teammates that will push him to realize his potential on this end of the floor. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Markelle-Fultz-90302/ ©DraftExpress


There was another post in the draft thread that went into great statistical detail about what an awful defender Markelle Fultz was at UW this year.

Admittedly he was on a terrible defensive team and he played heavy minutes so his advanced stats are impacted by the bad team but his advanced defensive stats are all inferior to Lonzo. the only defensive area where he's better than Lonzo is blocked shots, and both of them get blocks the same way, come from behind and block the shot, something that works far less often in the NBA than it did in college.

Gary Payton was one of the best defenders in NBA history, comparing Fultz to Payton is insulting to Payton, who was one of the best defenders in the conference when he was in college, Fultz was simply not a good college defender. He has the length and athleticism to be a good defender, but he's not remotely one yet.

Real GM, who actually prefers Fultz to Lonzo:
"But Fultz is not there yet defensively. In order to make these lineups with two point guards work, he will probably be the one guarding opposing wings and while he has good enough height and the length for it, Fultz probably lacks the strength[2] and toughness to do it frequently at this point."

It's complete nonsense to compare Fultz to Gary Payton. Sorry one of my all time favorite players you can't compare a kid who didn't play a lick of defense to one of the toughest defenders in NBA history.

 

[Russ Smith]

I have already posted that NBA GMs feel Fultz is a 2 way player and Ball is not. Please do some research and stop with your nonsense.

Read Dean Demakis, one of the more interesting guys around on draft projections. Btw he loves Fultz on offense, points out how UW's offense was actually better this year than last year despite losing Murray, Chriss and Andrews and effectively replacing them with Fultz.

But he consistently compares his defense to James Harden, says on a terrible defensive team it's hard to blame Fultz but he often looked lost or totally disinterested. his ultimate conclusion is you can accept his James Harden defense because he may be James Harden on offense.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Hmm I don't see those at all. Ball is not as dynamic as penny. Fultz is not the lock down defender that Payton was.

It's supposed to be "Ceiling level". Obviously I don't expect either to be there now. Just how I see them in a perfect world.

After I said the Ball as Penny, I did a search and found multiple others with the same comparison.

I may be all alone in the Payton ceiling for Fultz but the size, shooting, handles, rebounding, and yes steals all I believe will be comparable.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's supposed to be "Ceiling level". Obviously I don't expect either to be there now. Just how I see them in a perfect world.

After I said the Ball as Penny, I did a search and found multiple others with the same comparison.

I may be all alone in the Payton ceiling for Fultz but the size, shooting, handles, rebounding, and yes steals all I believe will be comparable.

But what made Payton an alltime great was defense. Not just steals, but his ability to lock down really good NBA players.

Fultz didn't even remotely show that in college, and Payton did.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

But what made Payton an alltime great was defense. Not just steals, but his ability to lock down really good NBA players.

Fultz didn't even remotely show that in college, and Payton did.

You are focusing on a year in school on a bad team. I am looking at the talent.

Fultz's size, wingspan, lateral quickness, recovery speed and ability to anticipate the play will make him a potentially great NBA defender. I stand by my comparison. As everyone says, the talent is there, you just need the right coach to bring it out.

In a couple years you can praise it, mock it, or forget it.

And the same goes for my evaluation that Ball is going to be an average defender at best in the NBA. His lateral foot speed is awful and he is going to get abused in pick and roll situations.

 

[Russ Smith]

You are focusing on a year in school on a bad team. I am looking at the talent.

Fultz's size, wingspan, lateral quickness, recovery speed and ability to anticipate the play will make him a potentially great NBA defender. I stand by my comparison. As everyone says, the talent is there, you just need the right coach to bring it out.

In a couple years you can praise it, mock it, or forget it.

And the same goes for my evaluation that Ball is going to be an average defender at best in the NBA. His lateral foot speed is awful and he is going to get abused in pick and roll situations.

Because defense isn't just about talent, if it was JR Smith would have been an elite defender at his size and athletic ability.

Defense is about attitude and intensity and understanding the game too. Payton was an elite defender because he grew up playing on the playgrounds where if you lose, you have to wait to get back on the court. That was supposed to be what made Fultz so good, late bloomer didn't make varsity until his junior year, played with a chip on his shoulder etc. That's what everyone said about him going into this season, which is why his season was so disappointing, he seemed like every other product of AAu basketball, get your stats and who cares about defense and who cares if you lose.

I have a friend who coaches in HS now, my old HS actually, his comment on AAU ball for years has been the problem with AAU is it teaches kids NOT to hate losing. they play so many games they start accepting losses. Lonzo didn't play much AAU and when he did, it was on a team his dad created, not some all star team. That's why he takes winning and losing personally. I'm not saying Fultz likes to lose, but he didn't seem to dislike it either.

To be a great defender you have to have an attitude and I didn't see any indication he has that. He's got the athletic ability to be a great defender but lots of great athletes are bad defenders.

Lonzo improved defensively all year, he went from a guy who played in a crazy system where he was until his senior year essentially playing the back line in a full court press all game, to being asked to guard man to man or play the top in the UCLA zone. By the end of the year he'd become arguably the 2nd best defender on the team. The team still wasn't a very good defensive team but he improved by leaps and bounds defensively. Fultz didn't. it's not like Steve Alford is Brad Stevens, Lonzo got better because he wanted to win, Fultz didn't because he just seemed to accept they were going to lose.

The other thing I don't like about Fultz and I've stated this repeatedly over the years, guys who spin that much tend to get in trouble when they get to the NBA. People usually spin because they can't beat their man, they can't get around him so they spin as a counter move. Guys like IT are the exception to the rule, he's so clever and quick at spinning that his spin is a huge weapon for him, there are others but in general guys who spin over and over tend to IMO get in trouble doing it in the NBA. Fultz spins as much as any bigtime scorer I've seen in the last 10 years in college, he's really good at it, maybe he'll be like IT, but we'll see.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you go through older stuff on the board you'll see I really loved Fultz in HS. One of the classic knocks on him from UA fans which I defended him against at the time, now actually rings really true. he says he picked UW because Romar was the first major coach to recruit him and offer him a scholarship. For a long time everyone thought he was going to Arizona and when he didn't UA fans said he doesn't want to win, he doesn't want to compete, he chose the easier coach to play for. I defended him agains that, maybe he's loyal like he said, maybe he wants to play in a system with more offensive freedom etc. Maybe he's a leader.

in hindsight everything he did in college went against what I expected. He should have gone to UA, would have won, and more importantly played for a coach that demanded he play hard on defense.

it really did look this year like UA fans were right, he chose the path of least resistance by playing for Romar.

The game he played against UCLA on Inside So Cal they had comments from an unnamed NBA scout just like your NBA gm who said UCLA wouldn't have been as good with Fultz. The scout said they're both pretty even, the one thing he said right off the bat is you want to see more competitiveness from Fultz than he showed, by the time he started competing his team was down nearly 30 points. they lost by 41, they were going to lose regardless, but maybe if he played harder early on the game would have been closer. His team seemed to give up pretty early and maybe some of that was because their best player was so passive.

 

[Krangodnzr]

It's certainly a tough call on these players. I don't think there is a huge drop-off until after #5 or #6. I really like Fox.

My 2 cents.

Ball - Jason Kidd

Fultz - Stephon Marbury

A better, bigger Stephon. The way he slashes to basket is vintage Stephon.

 

[Errntknght]

Francis did that

francis did that almost 20 years ago. Much different time. Is the williams you're mentioning jason williams the murderer? Also very different time. And the fact that you can come up with only two among hundreds of players and nearly 20 years under Mich different cba's is all I need to know about the probability of this happening (virtually zero).

Under the current CBA when a player finishes his rookie contract, he can become a restricted FA or he can accept an extension offered by his team - otherwise he's given a one year extension with a preset small pay increase then becomes an unrestricted FA the next year. That's how a rookie forces his way from the team that drafted him via the rules.
He could try bucking the rules the way Francis and Williams did but it may or may not work. I believe it worked before because the NBA didn't want to risk a lawsuit where their exemption from anti-trust laws might be forfeit. The existence of international basketball teams and leagues now might prevent such a lawsuit from getting a hearing. You know as well as I do if it went to trial, the chance the player would win would not be zero, virtual or otherwise.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Under the current CBA when a player finishes his rookie contract, he can become a restricted FA or he can accept an extension offered by his team - otherwise he's given a one year extension with a preset small pay increase then becomes an unrestricted FA the next year. That's how a rookie forces his way from the team that drafted him via the rules.
He could try bucking the rules the way Francis and Williams did but it may or may not work. I believe it worked before because the NBA didn't want to risk a lawsuit where their exemption from anti-trust laws might be forfeit. The existence of international basketball teams and leagues now might prevent such a lawsuit from getting a hearing. You know as well as I do if it went to trial, the chance the player would win would not be zero, virtual or otherwise.

Not zero, but there's a reason the draft doesn't get challenged . . . collective bargaining. It's not a worthwhile suit. Also, if they have to live out rookie contract and then restricted FA year they are hardly a rookie when they are forcing their way to another team. Are you saying GE threat that they'll jump after five years of service to the drafting team will convince a team not to draft them? No way.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Hopefully the Lakers lose their pick so we won't have to deal with any BS up to the draft.

This could be a real scenario:

Draft order stays as is. Boston trades the #1 for the #3 and Russell. Lakers take Ball.

Suns take Fultz.

Fultz and Ball go on to be a premier rivalry