Markelle Fultz

[Russ Smith]

It was 2 or 3 points less. I can't find the link right now but Fultz was leading all draft prospects by a margin.

Please post it when you find it.

 

[Russ Smith]

http://www.denverstiffs.com/2017/3/...k-college-basketball-prospects-denver-nuggets

Note who's 2nd in both offensive and defensive BPM, Fultz is 3rd in offense and not on the list in defense.

 

[slinslin]

Again BPM is an estimate, the creator of BPM even says that it is not accurate.

 

[slinslin]

Nobody projected him or Klay as the first pick in the draft.

Because they were not nearly as good as Fultz, not because their teams were losing.

They were far lesser prospects and still went top 15 or whatever it was.

 

[elindholm]

OMFG if I read one more stupid argument about winning record I am going to lose it.

How will we know the difference?

 

[slinslin]

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On offense Washington is +13.5 better with Fultz on the floor compared to their average.
On defense Washington is -1.9 better with Fultz on the floor compared to their average.

Higher absolute numbers are always better in this context.

Ball is 11.6 over the UCLA average on offense, -0.9 compared to their defense.

 

[slinslin]

IF you go back in the draft you will find that "winners" tend to get overdrafted "Shelden Williams, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist etc" while losers get undrafted "Klay Thompson, Paul George, Paul Millsap"...

Washington is not a good program and not a perennial winner but Romar sure as heck developed a lot of NBA guard talent and playing an offense that runs a lot of NBA style plays

- Isaiah Thomas, Nate Robinson, Terrence Ross, Brandon Roy, Murray, Chriss, Pondexter, Wilcox, Holiday..

 

[Russ Smith]

Because they were not nearly as good as Fultz, not because their teams were losing.

They were far lesser prospects and still went top 15 or whatever it was.

The question I asked earlier was when was the last time a kid that was projected to be a top pick in the draft and went on to be an all star, had such little impact on wins and losses in college. Chris named 2 guys who were all stars, but neither of them were projected to be the top pick in the draft.

George makes sense if you're familiar with his career, didn't play organized ball until he got to HS. Was overshadowed coming up because he was on the same AAU team as Jrue Holiday and Malcolm Lee both of whom went to UCLA. Didn't make the varsity in HS until halfway through his soph year. He committed to Santa Clara first then opened up and committed to Pepperdine. Then they fired their coach so he opened up again and signed with Fresno State.

He was one of the classic examples of why scouting is an inexact science, the top rated forwards in the state that year were the Wear twins, then Reeves Nelson, then Brendan Lane. further down that list were 3 guys you might have heard of, Derrick Williams, Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. The top 4 guys turned out to be vastly overrated(I knew the Wears were I thought Lane would be much better than he turned out to be) and the 3 best players in that group were the lower rated ones that were all late bloomers.

So I get why Paul George wound up where he did on a losing team.

Klay was another miss, same class, lots of people thought he was an unathletic stand still shooter, and his dad rubbed people the wrong way so he wound up at WSU where he turned out to be much better than any of the guards UCLA took in that class(Holiday, Lee, Jerime Anderson).

But again Fultz doesn't fit that at all, he's not unheralded, he was a late bloomer but he was well known by his junior year of HS. And he's projected to possibly be the first overall pick. Which is what prompted my question, how many other guys projected to be the first overall pick were on such bad college teams. Even LSU with Simmons wasn't that bad.

 

[Russ Smith]

Again BPM is an estimate, the creator of BPM even says that it is not accurate.

It's better than a link none of us but you have seen.

 

[Russ Smith]

IF you go back in the draft you will find that "winners" tend to get overdrafted "Shelden Williams, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist etc" while losers get undrafted "Klay Thompson, Paul George, Paul Millsap"...

Washington is not a good program and not a perennial winner but Romar sure as heck developed a lot of NBA guard talent and playing an offense that runs a lot of NBA style plays - Isaiah Thomas, Nate Robinson, Terrence Ross, Brandon Roy, Pondexter, Wilcox, Holiday..

Gee I wonder if that's because Thompson, George and Millsap were all late bloomer guys.

Nobody expected those guys to carry their team in college, they were all guys who developed in college.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There will be no discussion of Fultz from now to the draft that will not compare him with

IF you go back in the draft you will find that "winners" tend to get overdrafted "Shelden Williams, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist etc" while losers get undrafted "Klay Thompson, Paul George, Paul Millsap"...

Washington is not a good program and not a perennial winner but Romar sure as heck developed a lot of NBA guard talent and playing an offense that runs a lot of NBA style plays

- Isaiah Thomas, Nate Robinson, Terrence Ross, Brandon Roy, Murray, Chriss, Pondexter, Wilcox, Holiday..

Great runs in the tournament sometimes get too much attention. But Washington was 8-22 with Fultz. Washington WAS a perennial winner with the players you mentioned. All of these are final year records at Washington for these players.

Isaiah Thomas --24-11
Nate Robinson--29-6
Terrance Ross--24-11
Brandon Roy--26-7
Marquese Chriss--19-15
Justin Holiday (not Jrue) 24-11
CJ Wilcox--17-15

No losing seasons at Washington with any of the players you mentioned. Your post RAISES my level of concern. I can see a great player not being able to lift his team to the tourney etc, but you would think he could at least get to .500 or so.

 

[slinslin]

good lord give me strength..

BASKETBALL IS NOT WON BY INDIVIDUALS

Anthony Davis can't win with poo teammates.
Markelle Fultz can't win with poo teammates.
Michael Jordan can't win with poo teammates.

Washington was a mediocre team that lost their top 3 players who made up a HUGE part of the teams total production.

Ben Simmons had a winning record at LSU? Great, he had a much better team than Fultz too. LSU was rated as a tournament team and they had NBA prospects besides Simmons.

Washington has nothing, none of Fultz teammates are pro prospects. Ball has 7 guys on the draft radar in comparison.

 

[GatorAZ]

I'm not even sure why it matters if we're talking about his fit on the Suns where he'll be coming to an already talented roster. Ppl are really overthinking this.

 

[JCSunsfan]

good lord give me strength..

BASKETBALL IS NOT WON BY INDIVIDUALS

Anthony Davis can't win with **** teammates.
Markelle Fultz can't win with **** teammates.
Michael Jordan can't win with **** teammates.

Washington was a mediocre team that lost their top 3 players who made up a HUGE part of the teams total production.

Ben Simmons had a winning record at LSU? Great, he had a much better team than Fultz too. LSU was rated as a tournament team and they had NBA prospects besides Simmons.

Washington has nothing, none of Fultz teammates are pro prospects. Ball has 7 guys on the draft radar in comparison.

I do not remember ONE nba prospect on Simmons team outside of Simmons.

 

[slinslin]

I do not remember ONE nba prospect on Simmons team outside of Simmons.

Quarterman AND Blakeney.

 

[Cheesebeef]

good lord give me strength..

BASKETBALL IS NOT WON BY INDIVIDUALS

Anthony Davis can't win with **** teammates.

comparing winning in the NBA where EVERY team is stacked with talent and college where very few teams even have ONE player of Fultz's talent is like saying Magic Johnson wasn't a PG.

Oh... and Davis did at least get his team to the playoffs once.

Markelle Fultz can't win with **** teammates.

Markelle Fultz couldn't even beat YALE and in an AWFUL PAC-10, couldn't even be relatively competitive.

Michael Jordan can't win with **** teammates.

Jordan got the Bulls to the playoffs without Pippen or Grant. He didn't lead his team to an awful 8-22 record.

Washington was a mediocre team that lost their top 3 players who made up a HUGE part of the teams total production.

Ben Simmons had a winning record at LSU? Great, he had a much better team than Fultz too. LSU was rated as a tournament team and they had NBA prospects besides Simmons.

Washington has nothing, none of Fultz teammates are pro prospects. Ball has 7 guys on the draft radar in comparison.

I wonder if you just made people's point for them... Ball made others and the team look so good, that 7 of his teammates are on the draft radar. That's got to be some function of an elite player making his teammates better... especially when the previous year, that team STUNK.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not even sure why it matters if we're talking about his fit on the Suns where he'll be coming to an already talented roster. Ppl are really overthinking this.

Because a big step in the evolution of a young team is learning how to win?

 

[slinslin]

comparing winning in the NBA where EVERY team is stacked with talent and college where very few teams even have ONE player of Fultz's talent is like saying Magic Johnson wasn't a PG.

Oh... and Davis did at least get his team to the playoffs once.



Markelle Fultz couldn't even beat YALE and in an AWFUL PAC-10, couldn't even be relatively competitive.



Jordan got the Bulls to the playoffs without Pippen or Grant. He didn't lead his team to an awful 8-22 record.



I wonder if you just made people's point for them... Ball made others and the team look so good, that 7 of his teammates are on the draft radar. That's got to be some function of an elite player making his teammates better... especially when the previous year, that team STUNK.

What a joke man. Balls teammates were ranked players before ever playing weith Ball.

Also the top college programs are just as stacked compared to the competition as NBA teams are.

I doubt you have even seen Fultz play much at all.

 

[Russ Smith]

Quarterman AND Blakeney.

Ok I'll give you a dollar for every NBA game Tim Quarterman plays in, you give me a dollar for every NON NBA game(including D League) he plays in. Who do you think winds up owing the other money?

good lord give me strength..

BASKETBALL IS NOT WON BY INDIVIDUALS

Anthony Davis can't win with **** teammates.
Markelle Fultz can't win with **** teammates.
Michael Jordan can't win with **** teammates.

Washington was a mediocre team that lost their top 3 players who made up a HUGE part of the teams total production.

Ben Simmons had a winning record at LSU? Great, he had a much better team than Fultz too. LSU was rated as a tournament team and they had NBA prospects besides Simmons.

Washington has nothing, none of Fultz teammates are pro prospects. Ball has 7 guys on the draft radar in comparison.

Leaf, Anigbogu and who are the other 5? Welsh and Holiday maybe next year. You can't seriously be claiming I Ham and Bryce are on the NBA radar they're classic play overseas guys right now. If we count Lonzo himself that still only gets you to 5 and since he didn't play with himself it seems a bit silly to count him as one of the NBA prospects he played with.

 

[slinslin]

Because a big step in the evolution of a young team is learning how to win?

And Lonzo having a winning record at UCLA somehow proves that he knows how to win, in the NBA?

UCLA won nothing afterall.

While Fultz who went to a poo program does not despite being a winner before and leading team USA?

 

[slinslin]

Ok I'll give you a dollar for every NBA game Tim Quarterman plays in, you give me a dollar for every NON NBA game(including D League) he plays in. Who do you think winds up owing the other money?



Leaf, Anigbogu and who are the other 5? Welsh and Holiday maybe next year. You can't seriously be claiming I Ham and Bryce are on the NBA radar they're classic play overseas guys right now. If we count Lonzo himself that still only gets you to 5 and since he didn't play with himself it seems a bit silly to count him as one of the NBA prospects he played with.

Bryce Alford has shown up on mock drafts all the time.

Tim Quarterman was projected 2nd rounder and got picked up.

That is still 200 times better than any of Fultz teammates.

 

[GatorAZ]

Because a big step in the evolution of a young team is learning how to win?

If Chriss and Murray come back and they have a decent season it wouldn't make him a better prospect in my eyes. He's still the same player with the same skills.

 

[Russ Smith]

Rofl

Bryce Alford has shown up on mock drafts all the time.

Tim Quarterman was projected 2nd rounder and got picked up.

That is still 200 times better than any of Fultz teammates.

Well if we made that bet this year you'd owe me 6 bucks, 16 NBA games 5 MPG, 22 D league games.

So to be clear, are you saying Bryce Alford has a chance to be an actual NBA player?

I'm not sure he could play in the NBA even if the Pacers hired his dad as coach.

Good kid had a nice senior year but he's an undersized 2 he's not making the NBA.

I think Matisse Thybulle is a better NBA prospect than Alford or I Ham, and I don't think he's going to play much if at all in the NBA either.

 

[slinslin]

Just for the sake of it

Fultz teammates by most minutes (at least 10mpg)

David Crisp - unranked 2015
Noah Dickerson - Rivals #81 2015
Mathisse Thybulle - Rivals #130 2015
Malik Dime - unranked 2015
Dominick Green - unranked 2015
Carlos Johnson - unranked 2016
Sam Timmins - unranked 2016

no junior or senior in the rotation at all.

 

[Russ Smith]

If Chriss and Murray come back and they have a decent season it wouldn't make him a better prospect in my eyes. He's still the same player with the same skills.

I don't doubt his skills he just seems to be way too casual. Maybe he's just one of those guys who looks like he's coasting and really isn't. but it was really obvious on defense and even on offense at times.

In the first half of UCLA's win over them at UW it was scary how often he ended up guarded by Bryce on a switch and just passed the ball. Don MacLean, who loves him much more than Lonzo(NBA chances) was really critical of it said you can't let UCLA switch Bryce onto Fultz and have him let them off the hook like that. That's got to be a shot everytime, he needs much more of a killer instinct.