Matt should start

[dogpoo32]

Yes. That's fair to say.

I have even wondered if he isn't hiding physical disablements (hip - in preseason, now shoulder - not throwing long except once in this game) to stay in the game when maybe he needs to remove himself because he may be hurting the team.

But the entire team and coaching staff needs to take blame for that crap last night.

Oh I agree completely. We sucked from top to bottom last night. Every facet of the game, every snap of the ball. This thread is just about the QB situation.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I'm the biggest Leinart guy on this board.

But Warner wasn't even close to the issue last night. In fact the 20% of the time he got time he was on fire. The only play he missed with the bomb to Fitzgerald.

At this point I would rather bring in Levi Jones and see if we can shore up the protection because this offense can still be dominant. Its just that against the team who can rush 4 (and we play the Titans, Giants, and Vikings still who are going to eat us up) we are going to get beat bad.

 

[Covert Rain]

Once again point completely missed.

I don't claim Matt could work miracles with what Warner had to deal with, but if Matt plays I bet they gameplan to run a ton more, same with the 49ers and in both cases a conservative gameplan that emphasizes the run and the knowledge the rest of the team has to carry the weight, ie balance, to have a chance makes us much more likely to win both games IMO.

The coaches have Warner goggles, they see everything through what he can do, I submit it's time to take those off and move on.

Ummm.... I was not even commenting on anything you said. I was responding to another poster unless you completely missed that or you are signed in as two different posters?!?!?!

Having said that...I still don't agree with you. There is no logic behind...well if Matt plays I bet we run more. This offense is built around passing the ball to our receivers and running second. It wouldn't change just because Matt is in there.

The only thing that could possibly change that approach is if we find a running game. Simply changing quarterbacks will not balance a thing. Having success with a running game will.

 

[conraddobler]

Ummm.... I was not even commenting on anything you said. I was responding to another poster unless you completely missed that or you are signed in as two different posters?!?!?!

Having said that...I still don't agree with you. There is no logic behind...well if Matt plays I bet we run more. This offense is built around passing the ball to our receivers and running second. It wouldn't change just because Matt is in there.

The only thing that could possibly change that approach is if we find a running game. Simply changing quarterbacks will not balance a thing. Having success with a running game will.

Being a QB isn't just about passing the ball.

Hand offs, scrambling ability, leadership, perhaps that's what the team needs more than anything is a leadership change.

A change of attitude would do wonders and a lot of times a team rallys around a new QB, we'll see eventually I guess.

 

[Covert Rain]

Being a QB isn't just about passing the ball.

Hand offs, scrambling ability, leadership, perhaps that's what the team needs more than anything is a leadership change.

A change of attitude would do wonders and a lot of times a team rallys around a new QB, we'll see eventually I guess.

I also know that your offensive system is built around the overall talent you have. The Cards system is more around the West coast type play of airing the ball out. Rallying behind another QB is all find and dandy. However, if your offensive line can't open holes and your have a starting RB who can't run, changing a QB is not going to solve that. You can't turn a pass oriented offensive system to a run oriented one just by changing QB's.

If our passing attack had disappeared and we were running the ball well, I might agree with you. I could see the receivers and the team rallying behind that. However, in this case the offensive line and running backs is the problem.

Besides putting Matt behind an o-line that is going to get you 2 seconds during pass protection is only going to get our future QB killed.

 

[conraddobler]

I also know that your offensive system is built around the overall talent you have. The Cards system is more around the West coast type play of airing the ball out. Rallying behind another QB is all find and dandy. However, if your offensive line can't open holes and your have a starting RB who can't run, changing a QB is not going to solve that. You can't turn a pass oriented offensive system to a run oriented one just by changing QB's.

If our passing attack had disappeared and we were running the ball well, I might agree with you. I could see the receivers and the team rallying behind that. However, in this case the offensive line and running backs is the problem.

Besides putting Matt behind an o-line that is going to get you 2 seconds during pass protection is only going to get our future QB killed.

I just see it differently.

I've seen teams chase their tail like this, keep thinking that all they have to do is give the QB more time and it'll all work out.

Well of course it would work out if Warner had more time, given the way they line up if he has time he'll chew up anyone.

The goal of every other team is to make sure he dosen't have the time, rush 4 and get there.

The fact is though we are so busy putting out our perfect lineup we have no one left to help block, this is the same old same old all Martz offenses always had, but Martz isn't our OC, the only constant is Kurt, he likes certain formations because it's good for Kurt and he likes them.

Sure they work but we've landed squarely in reality, teams have adjusted, the MO will not change until we beat it and we won't beat it using Warner like we do.

We'll win against mediocre and bad teams that can't pressure Kurt with 4 rushers and teams that can will probably beat us.

There are quite a few teams that can pull that off, so I don't see what the point is in pursuing this line of attack.

What you need to develop is a QB that is perfectly willing to take what the defense gives them and forgive me but that's not and will never be Kurt, he forces passes when he's frustrated.

 

[Covert Rain]

What you need to develop is a QB that is perfectly willing to take what the defense gives them and forgive me but that's not and will never be Kurt, he forces passes when he's frustrated.

So your conceding the season then? Because you can't develop a young, inexperienced QB and hope to make a dent in the playoffs. Also, I have seen Matt panic plenty behind the teams previously bad offensive lines. If you think a young and inexperienced QB is less likely to make mistakes or panic......you must see something I have not in Matt.

If this was not a protection issue I would be the first to say give Matt a shot. If this was simply Warner making nothing but bad decisions....again I would be the first to say give Matt a shot.

I see something completely different. I see bad offensive play calling by the Whiz. I see an offensive line that has all of the sudden regressed. I see a non-existent running game. I see a defense that was rolled up and picked apart for over 500 yards bringing this defenses egos back down to earth. That's not on Warner.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I had to laugh at the end of the game when everyone thought Matt rolled his eyes because Whiz wanted him to take a knee I think its the opposite.

Whiz asked him to wait in the pocket for a hail mary and Matt rolled his eyes and said "Come on" like "you really think Ill have more than 2 seconds to throw the ball?"

 

[Bert]

....This is going to be the MO of every team from now til doomsday.

Get to Warner and you win.

Yes it will be the MO but it's something that can be easilly countered by COACHING and preparation. These are things you game plan for you dont just bench your QB.

If Whiz cant make adjustments and draw up plays to counter people for bringing this kind of pressures, then we have much bigger issues than Kurt Warner.

 

[CardLogic]

I had to laugh at the end of the game when everyone thought Matt rolled his eyes because Whiz wanted him to take a knee I think its the opposite.

Whiz asked him to wait in the pocket for a hail mary and Matt rolled his eyes and said "Come on" like "you really think Ill have more than 2 seconds to throw the ball?"

I would love to know what that conversation actually was! That was a great camera shot.

 

[Duckjake]

So your conceding the season then? Because you can't develop a young, inexperienced QB and hope to make a dent in the playoffs. Also, I have seen Matt panic plenty behind the teams previously bad offensive lines. If you think a young and inexperienced QB is less likely to make mistakes or panic......you must see something I have not in Matt.

If this was not a protection issue I would be the first to say give Matt a shot. If this was simply Warner making nothing but bad decisions....again I would be the first to say give Matt a shot.

I see something completely different. I see bad offensive play calling by the Whiz. I see an offensive line that has all of the sudden regressed. I see a non-existent running game. I see a defense that was rolled up and picked apart for over 500 yards bringing this defenses egos back down to earth. That's not on Warner.

Leinart may not be an improvement but he is not a "young and inexperienced QB" This is his fourth season and he has started 16 games and thrown over 500 passes. Rusty maybe but not young and inexperienced.

 

[Covert Rain]

Leinart may not be an improvement but he is not a "young and inexperienced QB" This is his fourth season and he has started 16 games and thrown over 500 passes. Rusty maybe but not young and inexperienced.

Matt has yet to start for a full season let alone have any real playoff experience. Your definition of experienced and mine are a tad different. He is not a rookie but he is no seasoned veteran either.

 

[Duckjake]

Matt has yet to start for a full season let alone have any real playoff experience. Your definition of experienced and mine are a tad different. He is not a rookie but he is no seasoned veteran either.

Yes they are different.

To me QBs being on the team for a long period of time is almost as valuable as actually playing.

I also don't put much stock in playoff experience. Neither Tom Brady nor Kurt Warner had ever played in the post season prior to the season they won a Super Bowl. Roethlisberger had been in two playoff games prior to his first SB season. Eli Manning one.

No big deal though. I'm just glad we have Leinart behind Warner. There are some teams that wish they had a #1 as good as Leinart much less a #2.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yes they are different.

To me QBs being on the team for a long period of time is almost as valuable as actually playing.

I also don't put much stock in playoff experience. Neither Tom Brady nor Kurt Warner had ever played in the post season prior to the season they won a Super Bowl. Roethlisberger had been in two playoff games prior to his first SB season. Eli Manning one.

No big deal though. I'm just glad we have Leinart behind Warner. There are some teams that wish they had a #1 as good as Leinart much less a #2.

Don't get me wrong. I would rather have Matt back there then some guy off the street trying to learn the system. Matt from that perspective is going to be way ahead of anybody you bring in.

I don't quite agree with him just being here on the sidelines it is equally valuable. Valuable yes...but equally valuable...no. There is no substitute for first hand experience with the first unit.....none.

There are some exceptions like you mentioned but there are more examples of disasters then there are success stories.

 

[RedStorm]

Ok I'm done being nice.

Yes Warner is better now than Matt, but who cares.

This is going to be the MO of every team from now til doomsday.

Get to Warner and you win.

Let the Matt/Beenie era begin, this is stupid to keep trying to relive past glory, every good team is going to rush Warner, we need a running game and a new QB, period.

When we know we are out of the playoffs (winning our div is the only way we make it) then make the changes. Until then, no changes.

Now, the question is....what week will it be when we stop being in contention for the division?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Your Warner bias and man love is beyond stale. Just go away already.

Yeah the warnerphiles are tedious and annoying, that's for sure. But they will be gone soon enough.

Also, his basic point is correct, and Conrad is unfortunately incorrect.

We still have a chance for a winning season and all the information that we have tells us that Warner can get hot and lead us to the playoffs. He's still the best choice against HOU.

But the HOU game is a must win for the cardinals. I think we saw bad Kurt again last night. If bad Kurt shows up against HOU, and we go to 1-3, I think then you have to seriously considering starting to let hollywood run with the first team. Or, maybe KW gets one more start after the HOU game.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I just see it differently.

I've seen teams chase their tail like this, keep thinking that all they have to do is give the QB more time and it'll all work out.

Well of course it would work out if Warner had more time, given the way they line up if he has time he'll chew up anyone.

The goal of every other team is to make sure he dosen't have the time, rush 4 and get there.

The fact is though we are so busy putting out our perfect lineup we have no one left to help block, this is the same old same old all Martz offenses always had, but Martz isn't our OC, the only constant is Kurt, he likes certain formations because it's good for Kurt and he likes them.

Sure they work but we've landed squarely in reality, teams have adjusted, the MO will not change until we beat it and we won't beat it using Warner like we do.

We'll win against mediocre and bad teams that can't pressure Kurt with 4 rushers and teams that can will probably beat us.

There are quite a few teams that can pull that off, so I don't see what the point is in pursuing this line of attack.

What you need to develop is a QB that is perfectly willing to take what the defense gives them and forgive me but that's not and will never be Kurt, he forces passes when he's frustrated.

I don't think its time to pull Kurt for Matt but this is a great post and made me see the situation differently.

Good Stuff Conrad

 

[conraddobler]

Well I understand Matt's not likely to start right now, I'm perfectly willing to be patient and it's not because I'm a Matt fan.

It's because I think it's time we got a franchise QB, Matt or anyone else, this team has had too many years of mercenary QB's, it's getting old.

In the heat of a loss frustrations boil over, luckily for everyone my frustrations don't mean anything.

I expect they'll ride Warner wherever he takes us for a long while.

 

[SuperSpck]

You guys are funny.
The QB ain't the problem.

 

[ajcardfan]

I don't think Warner is a mercenary QB. He's signed three contracts with us. On the first one, I'll never forget how he went to Chicago after he visited us and actually spent a good bit of the time there talking about how Arizona would be a good fit for him.

Anyone who signs three contracts with this team is loyal enough, in this day and age. IMO.

 

[ajcardfan]

You guys are funny.
The QB ain't the problem.

There certainly isn't the angst over the QB spot that we saw after the Niners game. the offensive line (who I thought was the worst part of the team agaisnt SF) and coaching is getting it's share of criticism now.


The o-line has been a huge disappointment.

 

[WildBB]

There certainly isn't the angst over the QB spot that we saw after the Niners game. the offensive line (who I thought was the worst part of the team agaisnt SF) and coaching is getting it's share of criticism now.


The o-line has been a huge disappointment.

Maybe Warner is going to have to make due with three widouts instead of four then, if the O-line needs some help. Keep Becht or Byrd along the line on passing downs. Make it harder on opposing D's to get at Warner.

Keeping both TH and Wells on 3rd downs in the game is also an option. I'd use the bye week to drill on blocking and catching the outlet for Wells. He can be dangerous on 3rd downs, we need to use him.

 

[cardpa]

I figured since so many brought these anti Warner posts back after his great game in Jacksonville its only fair to bring them back after his so so game Sunday.

 

[ReddBird]

A 1-2 record and all of the whiners resurface in a hurry.

Yeah, the Cards lost to a good team. If we'd done a better job in the first half -- if the team hadn't lost a fumble or if we'd gotten a few breaks -- the game might have played out differently. We might still have lost. That's football.

I'd love to think that Matt Leinart is our QBOF but he hasn't proved it yet -- and you need to remember that he's had more than a few chances. Pressure him and he reacts badly. It was the same thing at USC. I watched game after game where his twin RBs saved his skin. This preseason, the same thing happened. He had a brilliant series, I'm thinking he's finally stepped up his game, then when he has a chance to win the game in the last few seconds...every ball falls to the turf.

Matt has to win the right to start. He hasn't been able to do that because Warner is the better QB.

 

[Gambit]

Breaking news--Matt is starting this Sunday...

























...his lawnmower, that is.