Mavericks @ Suns Friday game thread 11-29-19

[BC867]

We lost our #1 pick Center to stupidity.

We lost our replacement Center to injury recently
because he may be too old to carry that load.

Our Point Guard is just coming back from injury
and we really don't know if he can stay healthy.

Our starting Power Forward is marginal at best.

We don't have a solid backup at any of the five
positions.

Our best defensive player hasn't done much else.

I can't see putting any of the blame on Booker,
who tried his best to cover two positions last year.

Now that he is back at Shooting Guard and capable
of putting up a lot of points, some posters expect
him to be the second coming of Kobe. Or Michael.

After a decade the Suns have finally escaped being
a laughingstock and, even with a lot of key players
out, are down to .500 after a surprisingly good start,
largely because we are no longer under the radar,
which was previously anticipated here.

The problem is not Devin Booker. Nor is he the
solution. Expecting him to lead us to anything
with this disarray is unwarranted.

Judging him without every role on the Suns being
reasonably fulfilled is not only unfair, it can only
set us back to the doldrums were in previously.

Let's not give up on someone who is capable of
scoring 70 points in a game. Remember, we lost
that game. It takes a full team to reach the next step.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Just got back from the game... here are my impressions:

- The biggest, most glaring thing that stood out to me is how incredibly hard the Suns need to work on offense just to get off a decent shot. As opposed to the Mavs who would expend considerably less effort and still get off high-quality shots.

- Booker is not the next Kobe... But he’s not a “solid #2” either. Right now, he is trying SO damn hard to be all things on this team. And each time he touches the ball he is instantly surrounded. The net result is that he is forcing just about everything on offense... Shooting, Passing, Penetrating... all being seriously forced, which leads to poor/forced shot selection and turnovers.

- Anytime Oubre and Rubio are leading the team in scoring, we can safely conclude that there is a problem... Booker has to be at 25 pts or better, period.

I really hope Ayton’s presence upon his return can settle things down...There has to be pressure taken off of Booker. Hopefully Deandre will do just that.

 

[BC867]

Or to put it another way . . .

Incompetence and laziness on the part of Suns management
are killing the goose that laid the golden egg, 70 points.

Devin Booker is a hell of a Shooting Guard. But we've seen
that, unlike major superstars, he is a sub-par defender.

And that, having to facilitate others, he is a turnover machine.

It is what it is! And if the team, or the fans, are criticizing him,
we're going to lose him. Then we won't even have a superb
Shooting Guard.

All or nothing is going to accomplish . . . nothing.

Good leadership does not frustrate its players.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'd just like to mention that Booker just turned 23 years old. This is the first year he's not playing on his rookie contract. Who he is today is not who he'll be in 3-4 years. Because he can't be the #1 guy on a title contender today doesn't mean he can't be that guy in a few years. Last year no one thought he'd be able to produce near the same level offensively while playing good defense and he's doing that this season.

People need to stop with the sky is falling stuff and writing guys off because they have a bad game or a couple of rough outings. It's amazing how some people gush about players on other teams and if a bad game is pointed out of theirs then it's just an off night, easily dismissible but if a Suns player has an off night that's a sign of who they'll be forever.

This loss sucked and so did the Washington game but they don't make up the whole season. This was the first game with Baynes back and Rubio seems to have worked off the rust from his injury and looks comfortable again. In a couple of games, hopefully Baynes will be 100% or close. When those guys are at full strength then we should see some more wins.

This years Suns are still a whole lot better than they were last season and I think they've exceeded most everyone's expectations so far. They didn't win 8 games last year until they played 32. I feel safe in saying they'll win #9 before they play 32 games this season. They won their 9th game last year on December 26th, which was game #35. I feel confident saying they'll get win #9 before they hit 25 games this year.

Right after all that, Ayton returns. Then we can see what this team is capable of. Until he returns though this team will need to fight for their wins and the good thing is this team has shown a ton of fight, which couldn't be said the last few years. Things are looking up, as a whole, it's just hard to see that during a losing streak.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'd just like to mention that Booker just turned 23 years old. This is the first year he's not playing on his rookie contract. Who he is today is not who he'll be in 3-4 years. Because he can't be the #1 guy on a title contender today doesn't mean he can't be that guy in a few years. Last year no one thought he'd be able to produce near the same level offensively while playing good defense and he's doing that this season.

People need to stop with the sky is falling stuff and writing guys off because they have a bad game or a couple of rough outings. It's amazing how some people gush about players on other teams and if a bad game is pointed out of theirs then it's just an off night, easily dismissible but if a Suns player has an off night that's a sign of who they'll be forever.

This loss sucked and so did the Washington game but they don't make up the whole season. This was the first game with Baynes back and Rubio seems to have worked off the rust from his injury and looks comfortable again. In a couple of games, hopefully Baynes will be 100% or close. When those guys are at full strength then we should see some more wins.

This years Suns are still a whole lot better than they were last season and I think they've exceeded most everyone's expectations so far. They didn't win 8 games last year until they played 32. I feel safe in saying they'll win #9 before they play 32 games this season. They won their 9th game last year on December 26th, which was game #35. I feel confident saying they'll get win #9 before they hit 25 games this year.

Right after all that, Ayton returns. Then we can see what this team is capable of. Until he returns though this team will need to fight for their wins and the good thing is this team has shown a ton of fight, which couldn't be said the last few years. Things are looking up, as a whole, it's just hard to see that during a losing streak.

Not only that, but this is literally his first year in which he has an actual NBA team around him. I am sure this is a huge adjustment for him as well. I think he'll get better as the season goes on.

As far as the team goes, they are deep if you compare them to the last year squad, but they still have some holes in their roster. I think Saric and Kaminsky are NBA-level players, but they are really backups. Additionally, with Ayton out, there isn't a single athletic big men on the roster. Outside of Rubio, they really don't have a point guard. Additionally, this is a brand new team. With Ayton out, it's really just Booker with a couple of bench guys returning from last year. They likely over-performed at the beginning of the year, and they are under-performing now.

 

[hcsilla]

I don't know if it's a matter of confidence on defense or actually being athletically talented enough to make a difference. It was my biggest worry of the off-season, just how unathletic the team would end up being. Ayton SHOULD make a difference there, but the question is will he be the Ayton of last year, who put up nice pretty rebounding stats, but provided very little in the way of rim protection or the guy we saw in Game 1 of this season?

also, to answer 1Sun's question... no. Booker can't be the best player on a title winning team. Maybe on a team that is absolutely stacked with a team like that 2004/5 Pistons club that was just really solid everywhere AND deep, but that's about it, IMO. And I think the biggest reason that is is because he's just not a superstar and again, unless you're as deep as that Pistons team while being a defensive dynamo, no team is a true contender without a superstar leading the way and that's not Book. A superstar is a player who can have a major effect on a game even when they're not hitting their shots. Booker just isn't that guy. He's not a gifted passer who can really run a good offense if he's not hitting. He's not a guy who if he's not hitting can really force the action off the dribble to make hay at the line and get the other team in foul trouble and he's average at best on defense so he doesn't make an impact there either.

Can he be the best player on a very good team? Maybe... but it's hard for me to see that either at this point mostly because I've never seen him put a team on his shoulder and even sniff the playoffs.

My fear with him is that at his peak is a SG version of Carmelo Anthony, while not being quite as good as Melo at his peak. A guy who can really score the ball, but can't demonstrably effect the game in any other area.

While I mostly agree, I think that the more accurate (and optimistic) comparison as Booker's ceiling is Brandon Roy (without injuries).

 

[SoonerLou]

Am I wrong in thinking Donic would have made Booker an even better player? The passing, the freedom on offense....

 

[leclerc]

F Luka Doncic and F the zebras and the star hungry league. It's not a basketball game any more when he has the star protection by the zebras. He can just run into people and seek contact so there's nothing the defense can do. I knew it was over with 6 minutes left and Dallas up by 10. Any time Phoenix would pull closer -- Booker continues to make stupid sloppy mistakes in crunch time -- Luca can just run into guys and flop and automatically get free throws.

So what's the point in playing?

Effing Doncic ran over Baynes twice, the second time Ser Baynes wasn't even standing, and he still got the call. So when he does not get called for charging (maybe 1 of 10) and gets all ticky tack fouls called his way (Handsome Frank bumps him with 4 seconds left and is surprised when Doncic gets the call), it's about selling fouls, flopping and acting, and he's an even better actor than he is a baller. So you can't touch him and you can't stand between him and the basket.

Props to Phoenix for fighting but we're gonna get swept by the Mavricks this year and I won't be watching those games. There are better things to do than watch rigged basketball.

 

[Phrazbit]

Am I wrong in thinking Donic would have made Booker an even better player? The passing, the freedom on offense....

Only if Doncic toned himself down a bit and let someone else take a dribble or 2.

The guy is an unquestionable superstar and, I gotta admit, should have gone #1. But I also think it would have left us wanting to trade Booker, because I think they'd be a lousy pairing. Booker off the ball hoping Doncic passes to him is a waste of his talents... and I think they'd be a putrid combination on defense. IMO, a big reason Booker has stepped up defensively is being partnered with better defenders, he is trying to be accountable.

Offensively Doncic is the total package, but on D he is pretty damn bad. He reminds me of Nash in that sense. Nash was a willing defender, but all the things that made him great on offense, those herky jerky movements, quick fakes and unpredictability, those traits didn't help him at all on D.

In a world without any emotional attachment or sense of loyalty I think the best move would have been to use Booker as trade bait to get Ayton and Doncic combined... but we would have gotten roasted for that. Justifiably crucified as a cheap (because Booker was due for a new contract) disloyal franchise.

I do think that this is a playoff team with Ayton though. He had one of the best rookie seasons as a big ever, he was a monster in the season opener. What is done is done. We've got Ayton and Booker as a tandom for, at least, the next 3 years. I hope they make the best of it.

I do think Booker can carry a team though. We've seen it. He just need to find the right balance. Right now he is being too inclusive. In the previous few years he was too quick to try and go solo, but now he is struggling to find the moments. Booker... when it is the 2nd half and your teammates have missed 4 shots in a row... go ahead, go nuts my man.

 

[Phrazbit]

One more note: Doncic also has, in my opinion, one of the top coaches in the league, arguably the best after Pop. I like Monty a lot but he as a lot of work to do to sniff Rick Carlisle's well earned reputation. I would take him as our coach in an instant.

 

[Bufalay]

Booker just as good as Lillard, Irving and Beal.

Doncic is on another level.

 

[dscher]

Back. To. Reality. I've liked what I've seen so far for the most part.. but if this team can stay around .500 halfway through the season it could make for an interesting potential playoff push.. baby steps with this franchise nowadays under a guy like Sarver.

 

[Ronin]

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[Ronin]

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

While I mostly agree, I think that the more accurate (and optimistic) comparison as Booker's ceiling is Brandon Roy (without injuries).

I’d go there but Roy was a superior defender. Even with books improvement in defensive end Roy was a better defender.

 

[GatorAZ]

Agree completely. I am also concerned, though, that Bridges and Booker seem to be trending in the wrong direction, and that we might not get anything at all out of the 2019 draft.

Along with Ayton returning we need one of Bridges/Cam to be an elite role player for this team to take the next step... I don’t see Cam becoming that, he kinda is what he is. But Mikal has the physical upside to be. For him it’s a mental/confidence issue.

 

[Mainstreet]

Am I wrong in thinking Donic would have made Booker an even better player? The passing, the freedom on offense....

Doncic would have made any team better.

Booker would have filled the Tim Hardaway Jr. role quite nicely.

 

[95pro]

I’d go there but Roy was a superior defender. Even with books improvement in defensive end Roy was a better defender.

Iirc Roy was clutch too. He definitely got the blazer some wins and were a tough tough post season opponent

 

[1Sun]

Iirc Roy was clutch too. He definitely got the blazer some wins and were a tough tough post season opponent

A better comparison might be Drazen Petrovic.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Along with Ayton returning we need one of Bridges/Cam to be an elite role player for this team to take the next step... I don’t see Cam becoming that, he kinda is what he is. But Mikal has the physical upside to be. For him it’s a mental/confidence issue.

I disagree. Bridges isn’t anything special physically. In fact, cams height gives him an advantage. And cam is pricing his shot is legit. More and more bridges is proving he’s not an nba player. Hope I’m wrong but his play on the court speaks volumes.

 

[mjb21aztd]

Darn another disappointment loss... atleast suns kept it close

Really need to beat the Hornets if suns lose than that will really hurt

Be refreshing to get ayton back and see how suns are at full strength....

 

[Cheesebeef]

I disagree. Bridges isn’t anything special physically. In fact, cams height gives him an advantage. And cam is pricing his shot is legit. More and more bridges is proving he’s not an nba player. Hope I’m wrong but his play on the court speaks volumes.

agreed. Bridges is a mediocre athlete with apparently a major confidence issue. that's a terrible combination. and it's not even like "well, he's really young!". Kid was projected to be a late lotto pick and taken that high because he was supposed to be one of the "most NBA ready" players in the draft as a 22 year old junior.

 

[Cheesebeef]

and to the black and white crowd... no one is saying Booker is THE PROBLEM. A lot of us are just recognizing that he's not the solution to having a superstar leader on the team, which almost all title contenders have. I think his peak is akin to what someone else brought up on the thread... he's a Joe Johnson-ish/Brandon Roy #1. Someone who can be the lead player on a team that makes the playoffs, mostly as a bottom bracket squad and is prob one and done with the outside shot of a top 4 finish here or there and random run to the WCF once in a blue moon.

But he'd be a top top tier #2 on a team. It's why I was so crushed this year when we didn't win the lotto. I thought Zion/Morant had the tools/attitude/potential to grow into the number 1 this team needed if they're ever going to contend year in year out. Now, we have to just hope we can go the Chauncey Pistons/Reggie Miller Pacers route and just make the team rock solid up and down the roster, with a killer at the end of games who can hit huge shots... something I DO think Booker can definitely be.

 

[Chaplin]

Doncic would have made any team better.

Booker would have filled the Tim Hardaway Jr. role quite nicely.

Now you’re comparing Booker to Tim Hardaway Jr.?

How far we fall after a loss...

 

[elindholm]

I don't get to watch games much anymore, so it's hard for me to have an opinion on Bridges's athleticism. But I always felt he was undersized. I know the numbers disagree, but he has always looked like a Walter Davis build to me. Davis had the quickness and shooting stroke to make it as a SG even in today's league, but he wouldn't be able to play SF like he did in his career. Bridges is a miniature SF with no stand-out skill to compensate for his lack of size.