Michael Vick

[kerouac9]

So the Falcons defence has nothing to do with the Falcons sucess? To attribute all those victories to Vick is crazy.

It wasn't the Falcs' defense that iced the game against the Cards. It wasn't the Falcons' D that sealed the game against the Chargers. It wasn't the Falcs' D that dismantled the Broncos on Sunday.

 

[Redsz]

What about the Panther game? Where Vick didn't throw a single TD pass? And the defence picked off Delhomme twice, limited Foster to 50 yds rushing and only allowed the Panthers to convert 4 3rd downs? But I guess that victory was all Vick?

The game against us is a laughable example at best. With the 5-man front we put up, Vick was forced to drop back and pass. Which he wasn't capable of doing. He fumbled the ball away twice, had an interception and only completed 50% of his passes. Oh yeah, he was sacked 5 times! You call that run 'closing out the game'? He put his team in a terrible position with his god-awful performance that day.

Meanwhile the Falcons defense forced us to fumble the ball four times, sacked McCown 6 times and limited Emmitt to 45 yds. But no, that victory was all Vick wasn't it?

Vick had a good game against Denver. But how can you say that game was all Vick? The Falcons defense shut down Denver's running game. And when Denver and Atlanta where trading touchdown drives at the start of the game how many times did the Falcons defense come up and intercept Plummer to put even more pressure on Denver?

How many times did the Falcons defense come up with a key stop's in the 4th to close out the game? Yes that is how a unit closes out a game. Not by performing badly all day then having one big play. But by actually making plays all game and then making the plays when it counts.

The 6-2 record of the Falcons is not just because of Vick. To put that record soley based on Vick would be pure trash.

 

[This_Guy]

What about the Panther game? Where Vick didn't throw a single TD pass? And the defence picked off Delhomme twice, limited Foster to 50 yds rushing and only allowed the Panthers to convert 4 3rd downs? But I guess that victory was all Vick?

The game against us is a laughable example at best. With the 5-man front we put up, Vick was forced to drop back and pass. Which he wasn't capable of doing. He fumbled the ball away twice, had an interception and only completed 50% of his passes. Oh yeah, he was sacked 5 times! You call that run 'closing out the game'? He put his team in a terrible position with his god-awful performance that day.

Meanwhile the Falcons defense forced us to fumble the ball four times, sacked McCown 6 times and limited Emmitt to 45 yds. But no, that victory was all Vick wasn't it?

Vick had a good game against Denver. But how can you say that game was all Vick? The Falcons defense shut down Denver's running game. And when Denver and Atlanta where trading touchdown drives at the start of the game how many times did the Falcons defense come up and intercept Plummer to put even more pressure on Denver?

How many times did the Falcons defense come up with a key stop's in the 4th to close out the game? Yes that is how a unit closes out a game. Not by performing badly all day then having one big play. But by actually making plays all game and then making the plays when it counts.

The 6-2 record of the Falcons is not just because of Vick. To put that record soley based on Vick would be pure trash.

Arrrgh.

No one is saying the Falcons are 6-2 all because of Vick.

No one is saying that the Cards are 2-5 all because of McCown.

BUT, the QB is the most important player on the field, and in almost every game, it is on the QB to get that one first down to keep a drive alive, make one good throw.....make one play that means the difference between winning and losing.

Vick was horrible against the Cards, but when they needed him, he came up with a 40+ yard run. That play sealed the game.

The Cardinals defense has had the team in position to win every game except for perhaps Buffalo, and McCown has not only never made that one play, but he basically curls up in the fetal position every time it's on him to make that one play.

 

[Russ Smith]

So the Falcons defence has nothing to do with the Falcons sucess? To attribute all those victories to Vick is crazy.

You mean the one that allowed an NFL record EIGHT rushing TD's against KC and then 499 yards passing to Jake Plummer? That defense?

Atlanta's defense is highly overrated, they were one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. atlanta has 170 points scored, 170 points allowed, but they're 6-2 because in close games Vick has been able to make enough plays to win the game. I don't think they're a Super Bowl contender mind you and Vick is out of his element in the WCO, but he does make enough big plays to win the close games.

They've been 4 close games and won 3 of them, that's why they're 6-2 right now.

Vick is in the wrong offense, but he's good enough to win close games with one big play I'll give him that. If we had Vick we would have won 2-3 more games by now.

 

[daredevil25]

I see this thread every board I go to, and it still amazes that almost always the first 20 post are stupid

 

[Redsz]

Arrrgh.

No one is saying the Falcons are 6-2 all because of Vick.

Really? I believe K9 says otherwise:

And Vick has won or closed out three of those games essentially by himself.

BUT, the QB is the most important player on the field, and in almost every game, it is on the QB to get that one first down to keep a drive alive, make one good throw.....make one play that means the difference between winning and losing.

And the QB can't make that pass without the OL blocking, without the WR's running the right routes or whatever. It's all relative.

Not all great teams have had great QB's. When you have the talent at QB you use it. No doubt. But the Raven's and Bucs proved that a QB doesn't have to be the most important postion on the field, but just a sum of the parts on a good team.

Vick was horrible against the Cards, but when they needed him, he came up with a 40+ yard run. That play sealed the game.

And maybe if he wasn't horrible all game he wouldn't have had to make that run? An average QB would not have had his team in that postion. Vick is not a great QB. He is an incredible talent, who has the potential to become one of the best of all time if he puts it together. But right now, it is a different story.

The Cardinals defense has had the team in position to win every game except for perhaps Buffalo, and McCown has not only never made that one play, but he basically curls up in the fetal position every time it's on him to make that one play.

No one is saying that the Cards are 2-5 all because of McCown.

Your contradicting your self. So what is it? It's not McCown's fault. Or it is McCowns fault because he didn't make the plays?

 

[kerouac9]

Redsz, you're stoned. Mike Vick's career winning percentage speaks for itself. With the worst defense in the NFL last season, Vick took a 2-10 team and finished the season 3-1. No one else returned, and nothing else was different.

There's no other player in the NFL that can boast of having that kind of effect on their team. Oh, and all three of those wins were against the best defenses in the NFL (Tampa, Carolina, and Jacksonville).

You're so wrong about this, it isn't even funny. What are you trying to argue? That he's not the best QB in the NFL? I'd probably agree with you. But to say that the guy sucks, or something? That's insane.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Really? I believe K9 says otherwise:

And Vick has won or closed out three of those games essentially by himself.

Not all great teams have had great QB's. When you have the talent at QB you use it. No doubt. But the Raven's and Bucs proved that a QB doesn't have to be the most important postion on the field, but just a sum of the parts on a good team.

This is absolute B.S. - The Ravens and the Bucs are the esxception to the rule and I don't thinbk it's any coincidence that they were one time wonders AND didn't make the playoffs the year after and the 2nd year after the Super Bowl respectively.

Over 2/3 of all Super Winning QBs are Hall of Famers. The overhwhelming majority of GREAT teams have GREAT QBs - the same can be said about all the teams that have conitnually made the playoffs and been to Super Bowls and the Playoffs over the last ten years - McNabb, McNair, Brady, Favre, Manning - all generally looked at as the best QBs in the game - and each one of those teams has been stallwarts since those guys have been their teams QBs.

As far as your contention that K9 said tghe Falcons were 6-2 only because of Vick - the evidence you point to that K9 has said Vick is really only responsible for 3 of those games just makes zero sense whatsoever.

 

[This_Guy]

This is absolute B.S. - The Ravens and the Bucs are the esxception to the rule and I don't thinbk it's any coincidence that they were one time wonders AND didn't make the playoffs the year after and the 2nd year after the Super Bowl respectively.

Over 2/3 of all Super Winning QBs are Hall of Famers. The overhwhelming majority of GREAT teams have GREAT QBs - the same can be said about all the teams that have conitnually made the playoffs and been to Super Bowls and the Playoffs over the last ten years - McNabb, McNair, Brady, Favre, Manning - all generally looked at as the best QBs in the game - and each one of those teams has been stallwarts since those guys have been their teams QBs.

As far as your contention that K9 said tghe Falcons were 6-2 only because of Vick - the evidence you point to that K9 has said Vick is really only responsible for 3 of those games just makes zero sense whatsoever.

The Ravens 2000 and the Bucs 2002 had two of the best 3 defenses of all-time. (85 Bears is up there and so are some of the Steel Curtain defenses). You can win with a QB who doesn't make mistakes is you have a legendary defense, yes. Otherwise, you need one who WINS and MAKES PLAYS.

What do Montana, Pennington, Brady, and Big Ben have in common? Not arm strength. Not athleticism......They have a habit of WINNING. In college AND in the pros.

 

[Redsz]

You mean the one that allowed an NFL record EIGHT rushing TD's against KC and

One game does not define a unit.

then 499 yards passing to Jake Plummer? That defense?

How many yds do the Cardinals give up each game? Does that mean that the Cardinal defense is terrible?

But, they also picked of Plummer 3 times and he only completed 56% of his passes.

Atlanta's defense is highly overrated,

Not IMO. They are top 5 against stopping the run. But have problems with stopping the pass. The Cardinals are pretty much the exact opposite.

I don't believe they are overated. Because I don't think many people believe it is a great defense. Nor do I. But this defense does make plays.

they were one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. atlanta has 170 points scored, 170 points allowed, but they're 6-2 because in close games Vick has been able to make enough plays to win the game. I don't think they're a Super Bowl contender mind you and Vick is out of his element in the WCO, but he does make enough big plays to win the close games.

They've been 4 close games and won 3 of them, that's why they're 6-2 right now.

Vick is in the wrong offense, but he's good enough to win close games with one big play I'll give him that. If we had Vick we would have won 2-3 more games by now.

I agree. Vick has made plays. But so have other players on that team. I'm sorry, I just believe in collective accontability when it comes to winning and losing in the NFL.

 

[kerouac9]

I agree. Vick has made plays. But so have other players on that team. I'm sorry, I just believe in collective accontability when it comes to winning and losing in the NFL.

So, what was the reason that the '03 Falcons went from the worst team in the NFL to the team that NO ONE WANTED TO PLAY over the last month of the season? There was one factor that changed. Guess who it was.

I also agree in collective accountability--to an extent. I think that Michael Vick is the exception to that rule, though. Take Vick away from the Falcons and put anyone--anyone--under center, and that's a 6-10 team.

 

[Russ Smith]

One game does not define a unit.



How many yds do the Cardinals give up each game? Does that mean that the Cardinal defense is terrible?

But, they also picked of Plummer 3 times and he only completed 56% of his passes.



Not IMO. They are top 5 against stopping the run. But have problems with stopping the pass. The Cardinals are pretty much the exact opposite.

I don't believe they are overated. Because I don't think many people believe it is a great defense. Nor do I. But this defense does make plays.



I agree. Vick has made plays. But so have other players on that team. I'm sorry, I just believe in collective accontability when it comes to winning and losing in the NFL.

I agree to an extent but they've given up 84 points in 2 games so the defense isn't exactly winning games for them either. Last year they had the worst defense in the NFL except maybe San Diego.

They actually picked off Jake 6 times, but DeAngelo Hall dropped 3 according to a game story I read about the game. Watts also dropped an underthrown TD pass and on the next play they picked Jake and scored to ice the game. That's Jake.

I was just pointing out that they don't have a great defense at all, against bad offenses they play well, against good offenses they have been pretty bad at times.

I don't think Vick is winning single handed, but the difference between him and Josh is they're both keeping games close, but Vick is making plays at crunch time when Josh isn't.

 

[daredevil25]

As the only Falcon fan around, I'll state my views on the matter. I've always maintained even at our boards that Vick has a lot of things to work on that many QBs w/ less experience have. I feel his INTs w/ exception of one have been terrible throws right to the DB. I feel his use of hot reads leaves a great much to be desired. I believe his careless decision to try and make the big play cost him in his horrible games. However I do believe that w/ him we are a better team. I've even been called a hater and racists for my belief in those things, ironically enough.

Sometimes I see people talking about his bad...because he sucks in fantasy football. Once you bring up fantasy football IMO you should see your way out of any real discussion. That's like me saying, he's great in Madden, he's great in real life.

However, what Vick does at the QB position is like what Randy Moss does at the WR position. When you play Randy Moss he single handedly alters the way you play defense. If you play him normally, you die, simple as that. Last week Mike Shanahan said the Broncos would prepare for Vick like they do everyone else. 367 total yards later, the Broncos were losing 41-28 stunned. The Cardinals did a great job of containing him, I don't take that away. So far they and the Chiefs have been the only teams to really make him ineffective the entire game.

As for the overrated talk, most people don't even put him in the top 10 QBs, so how is he overrated? Overhyped is the word you're looking for, the media just records his every step. As a Falcon fan, I get tired of ESPN only caring when he rushes for 70+ yards. Hell, were I not a Falcon fan, I'd probably be POed w/ all the coverage, even as one I get sick of it. However, that's something I get mad at the media, not the player for. How many times has Vick downed a player and did all he could to demean someone (Mr. Owens, Mr. Keyshawn)? He doesn't sit back smoking weed and retires on the team before training. Didn't start fighting w/ his wide receiver for not catching passes, a trait all too familiar in our receiving unit. He's a standup person, WINS games, and is more of a team player than given credit.

Oh yeah, and whoever said Dan Reeves got fired because he called Vick a RB, really needs to study more. Dan Reeves had TWO, count em', TWO winning seasons w/ the Falcons. Guess what the traits of each season were? The Falcons had an overachieving defense, and rode one offensive player's coat-tails. Next season, the team overpays FAs, overpays to re-sign players and uses special team aces that can't play their position, as our depth. He was also the guy calling the personnel shots up to 2001. When he FINALLY let go of draft rights, we started having better drafts. Prior to 2001, we have TWO players left from Dan Reeves drafts. Since 2001 we have 8 players. He also quit, he could have finished the season but he quit.

 

[Redsz]

This is absolute B.S. - The Ravens and the Bucs are the esxception to the rule and I don't thinbk it's any coincidence that they were one time wonders AND didn't make the playoffs the year after and the 2nd year after the Super Bowl respectively.

How can they be one time wonders when using this formula has given many teams sucess? It isn't an exception to the rule if it has happened more than once.

Over 2/3 of all Super Winning QBs are Hall of Famers. The overhwhelming majority of GREAT teams have GREAT QBs - the same can be said about all the teams that have conitnually made the playoffs and been to Super Bowls and the Playoffs over the last ten years - McNabb, McNair, Brady, Favre, Manning - all generally looked at as the best QBs in the game - and each one of those teams has been stallwarts since those guys have been their teams QBs.

Your missing my point. I never said that having a great QB means you don't win in the NFL. Infact I said if you have that talent at QB, use it. But merley pointing out that teams don't always rely on the QB to win the game or win the big one.

As far as your contention that K9 said tghe Falcons were 6-2 only because of Vick - the evidence you point to that K9 has said Vick is really only responsible for 3 of those games just makes zero sense whatsoever.

How does Vick 'winning' 3 games not contribute to a 6-2 record?

 

[Russ Smith]

. Prior to 2001, we have TWO players left from Dan Reeves drafts. Since 2001 we have 8 players. He also quit, he could have finished the season but he quit.

I'll agree with a lot of what you said but the last sentence is just too obvious. Of course the guys drafted most recently are still around in more numbers than the guys drafted earlier. That's true on every team in the NFL that's the nature of the game with free agency.

 

[Redsz]

So, what was the reason that the '03 Falcons went from the worst team in the NFL to the team that NO ONE WANTED TO PLAY over the last month of the season? There was one factor that changed. Guess who it was.

I also agree in collective accountability--to an extent. I think that Michael Vick is the exception to that rule, though. Take Vick away from the Falcons and put anyone--anyone--under center, and that's a 6-10 team.

I agree that Vick not being there hurt that team. Not because of his performance as a QB. But because he is a leader on that team and has unbelivable physical talent that inspires the rest of the Falcons.

 

[daredevil25]

I'll agree with a lot of what you said but the last sentence is just too obvious. Of course the guys drafted most recently are still around in more numbers than the guys drafted earlier. That's true on every team in the NFL that's the nature of the game with free agency.

I should add that the average amount of players from Reeves drafts that made the team are about 3 per draft. Of which only about 5 are still in the league. I still think Dan Reeves is one of the best coaches we've had and he did get two teams to overachieve and make the playoffs and SB, but his personnel decisions helped lead the teams down the toilet each time they came off a winning season.

 

[Redsz]

I agree to an extent but they've given up 84 points in 2 games so the defense isn't exactly winning games for them either. Last year they had the worst defense in the NFL except maybe San Diego.

Well, that KC game did really kill their PA total.

They actually picked off Jake 6 times, but DeAngelo Hall dropped 3 according to a game story I read about the game. Watts also dropped an underthrown TD pass and on the next play they picked Jake and scored to ice the game. That's Jake.

I was just pointing out that they don't have a great defense at all, against bad offenses they play well, against good offenses they have been pretty bad at times.

I don't think Vick is winning single handed, but the difference between him and Josh is they're both keeping games close, but Vick is making plays at crunch time when Josh isn't.

I agree Russ. I'm not saying that the Falcons defense is one of the best. And I'm not saying Vick doesn't make plays or doesn't have a good winning percentage.

But my opinion is that the Falcons defense does make plays and can stop the run. And that Vick has all the ability in the world to be the best QB in the NFL, but right now isn't a great passer.

 

[kerouac9]

I agree that Vick not being there hurt that team. Not because of his performance as a QB. But because he is a leader on that team and has unbelivable physical talent that inspires the rest of the Falcons.

So, what's your point, here? Are you just player hating? Vick--a single player--takes a 6-10 team and suddenly there a 10-6, 11-5 team that's going to be hosting a playoff game in January. There's no player in the league that has that effect on a team.

 

[daredevil25]

Well, that KC game did really kill their PA total.



I agree Russ. I'm not saying that the Falcons defense is one of the best. And I'm not saying Vick doesn't make plays or doesn't have a good winning percentage.

But my opinion is that the Falcons defense does make plays and can stop the run. And that Vick has all the ability in the world to be the best QB in the NFL, but right now isn't a great passer.

Actually I agree w/ almost all you've said. Atleast you're not talking about Fantasy Football

 

[Redsz]

K9, how about Peyton Manning? Or Randy Moss?

My point? Vick is a fantastic talent. But isn't the only reason they are 6-2.

 

[jerryp]

Vick has done what no other QB in NFL history (besides Packers QBs) was able to do. Win a playoff game in Green Bay. Nobody can take that away from him.

Too bad the media took that game away from Atlanta's defense and gave it to Vick. Defense had two picks and recovered three fumbles and (special teams) had a blocked punt for a TD. Vick did have the opening touchdown pass and had a total of 117 yards passing. 67 on the ground. Decent day, but it sure looks to me like the defense won that game for them.

And Green Bay was rocked with injuries. They weren't prepared to play the Jets the week before and that cost them the first round bye. With no time to heal they were dejected before the game began. Vick even said so after the game. He said you could see they just didn't have it in them to play that week.

Just give the D some props.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well, that KC game did really kill their PA total.



I agree Russ. I'm not saying that the Falcons defense is one of the best. And I'm not saying Vick doesn't make plays or doesn't have a good winning percentage.

But my opinion is that the Falcons defense does make plays and can stop the run. And that Vick has all the ability in the world to be the best QB in the NFL, but right now isn't a great passer.

Agreed, that's why the WCO is a bad fit for him, they're asking him to do something he's not really able to do yet instead of desinging an offense that he can run. Eventually he'll have to be able to make plays from the pocket because otherwise he'll get hurt every year, but forcing him into the WCO now only makes him easier to defend.

He's got a great arm, but if you're a WR you don't want to play with Vick because of that, you want to play with him because of wins and losses, no WR is going to make the Pro Bowl with Vick anytime soon.