MJ vs LeBron

[TJ]

Based on what? Other than your feelings about it. How could you possibly quantify this? If you have something I could look at I would be happy to review.

To suggest that somehow those All-stars are somehow inferior to today's might just be the most ludicrous thing I have read in a long time.

You drop MJ, Akeem, Magic, David Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Drexler....I could go on and on and on....they would dominate even today.

Pace of play is up, more threes are shot and hit at a higher percentage despite the line being pushed back, and overall scoring is up.

You're right in that the aforementioned would still produce. I never said they wouldn't. But let's not pretend that all of the stars of today are inferior to the guys you mentioned.

 

[TJ]

I agree. That's why I think it's so hard to compare greatness from era to era. Having watched both players I believe Jordan is superior but I have no problem with someone putting Lebron on top instead. I have a problem when people point to one or two things as proof, fact is we can never really know.

And we haven't even defined what we mean by greatest player. I have no doubt that if you took every player from every era and then whittled them down to 30 teams, Wilt would still be the most dominant player in the game. For one game, any game. But both Jordan and James have had superior careers to Chamberlain. So who's better?

The debate will never end because there's no valid, concrete measurement. In the end, it's all about personal preference. I think Jordan is better, but by the slimmest of margins; and I detest those who use LeBron's team's Finals record as an end-all-be-all solution. I don't doubt that if LeBron played on Jordan's Bulls' teams that the Finals records would be the same

It's easier to do the "who's superior" debate with a sport like golf. You can make a simple argument that Jack Nicklaus was better than Tiger Woods because Nicklaus won 18 majors to Tiger's 14. Maybe there are some variables that can be injected into the debate, but golf is not a team sport like basketball.

 

[Covert Rain]

Pace of play is up, more threes are shot and hit at a higher percentage despite the line being pushed back, and overall scoring is up.

You're right in that the aforementioned would still produce. I never said they wouldn't. But let's not pretend that all of the stars of today are inferior to the guys you mentioned.

I didn't say all but come on. I bet I could create a laundry list from the 80's and 90's that would blow your mind. That's all I am saying. I just don't see how anybody can say with any level of certainty that those players wouldn't still dominate.

In fact, I don't think the game would be the same if those players were still in the league. It would be a different league.

It is a fun debate though!

 

[Cheesebeef]

And before Phil Jackson (also Scottie) came along in 1989, MJ's teams only won three total playoff series (in an era in which the first-round was best of 5).

I'll dispel a popular myth here. Today's players are far more athletic, talented, and well-conditioned than those in the 80s and 90s. Due to the advent of AAU ball and modern technology, players are exposed to more coaching, better forms of training, supplements, etc. Whereas back then, players were either just big and strong or looked like lanky mailmen.

So yes, Durant and Curry are better than many of the heralded stars of the 80s and 90s. Durant will finish his career being more productive than Barkley, Malone, Pippen, and others. Curry is superior to Reggie Miller, Mark Price, Isaiah Thomas, and others.

I'll dispel your myth that the league is better now. Jordan was winning before major expansion. Rosters were deeper, players were coming into the league more polished. The talent pool now is diluted to a handful of teams and LeBron only has to play ONE of them seemingly every year.

Right now... he's definitely playing the most talented team of all time. But he had a superstar next to him last year playing them and got taken out behind the woodshed and I think it's likely it happens again this year, despite his superhuman performances.

That said... Durant will end his career better than Barkley/Malone/Pippen? Yeah... no. He gravy trained on the Warriors and his nuts continually shrivel up in crunch time throughout his career. He's a great second banana, but Barkley/Malone were...

Ah, forget it. You're coming off like Slin bashing the 80's/90's NBA and part of me thinks you weren't old enough to watch it back then and appreciate how good those teams were and how good the teams were that Jordan repeatedly turned back.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'll dispel your myth that the league is better now. Jordan was winning before major expansion. Rosters were deeper, players were coming into the league more polished. The talent pool now is diluted to a handful of teams and LeBron only has to play ONE of them seemingly every year.

Right now... he's definitely playing the most talented team of all time. But he had a superstar next to him last year playing them and got taken out behind the woodshed and I think it's likely it happens again this year, despite his superhuman performances.

That said... Durant will end his career better than Barkley/Malone/Pippen? Yeah... no. He gravy trained on the Warriors and his nuts continually shrivel up in crunch time throughout his career. He's a great second banana, but Barkley/Malone were...

Ah, forget it. You're coming off like Slin bashing the 80's/90's NBA and part of me thinks you weren't old enough to watch it back then and appreciate how good those teams were and how good the teams were that Jordan repeatedly turned back.

There are 3 more teams now than when Jordan won his titles. That makes up around 39 players on active rosters. That is not major expansion. Especially when the game is much more global than it's ever been and there are a ton of Europe's best players now in the NBA during their primes. The talent level across the league is pretty equal to what it was during Jordan's title years but the issue now is that the stars are more likely to join up together rather than compete against each other. We see that on the Warriors, on the Cavs to a degree, the Rockets, etc. There are a number of teams with multiple All-Stars while there was typically 1 player from the majority of teams represented before.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'll dispel your myth that the league is better now. Jordan was winning before major expansion. Rosters were deeper, players were coming into the league more polished. The talent pool now is diluted to a handful of teams and LeBron only has to play ONE of them seemingly every year.

Right now... he's definitely playing the most talented team of all time. But he had a superstar next to him last year playing them and got taken out behind the woodshed and I think it's likely it happens again this year, despite his superhuman performances.

That said... Durant will end his career better than Barkley/Malone/Pippen? Yeah... no. He gravy trained on the Warriors and his nuts continually shrivel up in crunch time throughout his career. He's a great second banana, but Barkley/Malone were...

Ah, forget it. You're coming off like Slin bashing the 80's/90's NBA and part of me thinks you weren't old enough to watch it back then and appreciate how good those teams were and how good the teams were that Jordan repeatedly turned back.

Don't forget about the developmental league. There is zero doubt the talent pool is more diluted now. Players are just not coming out of college as polished and even then the talent pool is super drained.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I believe the Suns will gamble on if Hakeem style game translates today with the #1 pick

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's tough to say because each team plays against a different set of rules. But this Warriors team would be far less special if they were playing in the NBA in the mid 80's. I'd take the Lakers and the Celtics best lineup over the Warriors without hesitation if they're all playing under 80's rules and interpretations.

Agreed. This warriors team would get physically trampled and curl up in fetus position playing those teams, or god forbid the pistons, under 80s/90s rules.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The debate will never end because there's no valid, concrete measurement. In the end, it's all about personal preference. I think Jordan is better, but by the slimmest of margins; and I detest those who use LeBron's team's Finals record as an end-all-be-all solution. I don't doubt that if LeBron played on Jordan's Bulls' teams that the Finals records would be the same

It's easier to do the "who's superior" debate with a sport like golf. You can make a simple argument that Jack Nicklaus was better than Tiger Woods because Nicklaus won 18 majors to Tiger's 14. Maybe there are some variables that can be injected into the debate, but golf is not a team sport like basketball.

True but golf’s exclusionary past limited Nicklaus’ competition in a way that has been the case with Tiger’s competition.

(Mind you, I know very little about golf, so that’s the sum total of any argument I can make thereon).

 

[mojorizen7]

I'll dispel a popular myth here. Today's players are far more athletic, talented, and well-conditioned than those in the 80s and 90s.

Nope.

 

[TJ]

Ah, forget it. You're coming off like Slin bashing the 80's/90's NBA and part of me thinks you weren't old enough to watch it back then and appreciate how good those teams were and how good the teams were that Jordan repeatedly turned back.

LOL. Get over yourself. I’m not bashing the previous generations of basketball players; however, I don’t subscribe to the groupthink that the top players from those generations are worlds better than the players today. I remember vividly those players and while i enjoyed them, i also enjoy the players of today just the same.

Where I do agree with you is that players are far less developed coming out of college. At the same time, I remember from the 80s and 90s a plethora of players (not talking about the Hakeems and Ewings) that didn’t cut the mustard.

 

[TJ]

Agreed. This warriors team would get physically trampled and curl up in fetus position playing those teams, or god forbid the pistons, under 80s/90s rules.

At the same time, how would those teams guard 7’0” perimeter players on the outside? Those rock-em-sock-em teams thrived on clogging the lane. Spread them out and you take them out of their comfort zone. I think people are so fixated on what today’s teams would do in the 80s that we forget to consider how the 80s teams would produce today.

What makes Golden State unique is that they can hit threes at a torrid pace, which swings momentum quickly. The closest I’ve seen to them were the Showtime Lakers, and even they couldn’t match the pace of play and shooting that Golden State has.

 

[Covert Rain]

At the same time, how would those teams guard 7’0” perimeter players on the outside? Those rock-em-sock-em teams thrived on clogging the lane. Spread them out and you take them out of their comfort zone. I think people are so fixated on what today’s teams would do in the 80s that we forget to consider how the 80s teams would produce today.

What makes Golden State unique is that they can hit threes at a torrid pace, which swings momentum quickly. The closest I’ve seen to them were the Showtime Lakers, and even they couldn’t match the pace of play and shooting that Golden State has.

I will say it again. Those teams would be happy to let a 7 footer take 3’s while someone like Akeem, the Admirial or Ewing takes high percentage shots at he rim. Law of averages would catch up quick.

Do you think if Pop still had Duncan and/or Robinson he would trade them away for a perimeter 7 footer who could shoot 3’s!!?!?

Hell no.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Hmmm. This is boiling down to an argument about one era vs another. It shouldn't. The simple fact is that MJ had a better team around him, and much better coaching than LeBron has had, especially recently. Look at last night! LeBron is playing with knuckleheads! He has been ever since he came back to Cleveland.

So, was the competition tougher? That is hard to tell. Let's see.

2018 Warriors vs the 1993 Bulls. I think it would be a very good series.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hmmm. This is boiling down to an argument about one era vs another. It shouldn't. The simple fact is that MJ had a better team around him, and much better coaching than LeBron has had, especially recently. Look at last night! LeBron is playing with knuckleheads! He has been ever since he came back to Cleveland.

So, was the competition tougher? That is hard to tell. Let's see.

2018 Warriors vs the 1993 Bulls. I think it would be a very good series.

LeBron DEFINITELY has a worse team around him right now, but from 2010-2017, he consistently had two other All-Stars next to him, and one of those All-Stars on each team were sure fire/possible HOFers (Wade, Kyrie) and MVPs candidates in their own right.

That said... what LeBron is doing THIS year is almost unparalleled. He's literally a one man team who beat a solid Pacers club, a 60 win Raptors club that was very talented, the best coach in the league and almost singlehandedly beat one of, if not THE most talented team ever in Game 1 on their home floor.

This run is just amazing to watch. His shooting stroke/end of game confidence has finally risen to the level of his outrageous raw talent to make him an almost indestructible cyborg. Dude's like the freaking Terminator out there right now.

That's what this series is... it's T2 with LeBron playing the role of Arnold v. the Warriors liquid metal Terminator. He can't beat them alone... he needs SOMEONE to be Sarah Connor!

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

LeBron DEFINITELY has a worse team around him right now, but from 2010-2017, he consistently had two other All-Stars next to him, and one of those All-Stars on each team were sure fire/possible HOFers (Wade, Kyrie) and MVPs candidates in their own right.

That said... what LeBron is doing THIS year is almost unparalleled. He's literally a one man team who beat a solid Pacers club, a 60 win Raptors club that was very talented, the best coach in the league and almost singlehandedly beat one of, if not THE most talented team ever in Game 1 on their home floor.

This run is just amazing to watch. His shooting stroke/end of game confidence has finally risen to the level of his outrageous raw talent to make him an almost indestructible cyborg. Dude's like the freaking Terminator out there right now.

That's what this series is... it's T2 with LeBron playing the role of Arnold v. the Warriors liquid metal Terminator. He can't beat them alone... he needs SOMEONE to be Sarah Connor!

One man offense*

Again his teammates have been playing some very solid defense in these playoffs. If his teammates weren't playing such solid defense there is no chance they would be in the finals right now or that they would have had a shot at winning game one of the finals.

 

[HeHasRosen]

Hmmm. This is boiling down to an argument about one era vs another. It shouldn't. The simple fact is that MJ had a better team around him, and much better coaching than LeBron has had, especially recently. Look at last night! LeBron is playing with knuckleheads! He has been ever since he came back to Cleveland.

So, was the competition tougher? That is hard to tell. Let's see.

2018 Warriors vs the 1993 Bulls. I think it would be a very good series.

Yep. I think there's guys that would translate in both era's. The best would all be good enough to compete with each other. The guys of today are definitely more conditioned and athletic. Yesterdays era were more reliant on technique and size. Its hard to compare the styles and the differences of how the game is and was played.

But im sorry saying Lebron is not on MJ's level is probably the most ridiculous statement of all time. MJ is the GOAT still. But its much closer than most on this board would have you believe. And once its all over Lebron will take his throne.

Also i think Lebron has been watching MJ tape of that second run. He's starting to use his footwork in a very similar way to MJ did later in his career

 

[HeHasRosen]

Lebron James:

51-8-8 the first 50-8-8 game in finals history. Highest shooting % on a 50 point night in finals history.

Its his 8th 40pt game of these playoffs. Most 40 pt games in playoff history. Ties Jerry West.

He has more 40pt games in the finals since he went back to Cleveland. (4 years) Than MJ has in his ENTIRE career! Against this Warriors team that is one of the best all time. Nuff said

 

[GatorAZ]

Lebron James:

51-8-8 the first 50-8-8 game in finals history. Highest shooting % on a 50 point night in finals history.

Its his 8th 40pt game of these playoffs. Most 40 pt games in playoff history. Ties Jerry West.

He has more 40pt games in the finals since he went back to Cleveland. (4 years) Than MJ has in his ENTIRE career! Against this Warriors team that is one of the best all time. Nuff said

Jordan never scored 8 points in a finals game, though...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Hmmm. This is boiling down to an argument about one era vs another. It shouldn't. The simple fact is that MJ had a better team around him, and much better coaching than LeBron has had, especially recently. Look at last night! LeBron is playing with knuckleheads! He has been ever since he came back to Cleveland.

So, was the competition tougher? That is hard to tell. Let's see.

2018 Warriors vs the 1993 Bulls. I think it would be a very good series.

But I think we also have to hold the lower (and that’s arguable with wade, bosh, love, kyrie) quality teammates and worse coach against Lebron because he orchestrated all that. And in my opinion ones impact on your team - in any fashion - should come into play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yep. I think there's guys that would translate in both era's. The best would all be good enough to compete with each other. The guys of today are definitely more conditioned and athletic. Yesterdays era were more reliant on technique and size. Its hard to compare the styles and the differences of how the game is and was played.

But im sorry saying Lebron is not on MJ's level is probably the most ridiculous statement of all time. MJ is the GOAT still. But its much closer than most on this board would have you believe. And once its all over Lebron will take his throne.

Also i think Lebron has been watching MJ tape of that second run. He's starting to use his footwork in a very similar way to MJ did later in his career

I don’t think a single poster on this board that doesn’t think it’s close between Jordan and Lebron.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

! Against this Warriors team that is one of the best all time. Nuff said

You say that like it’s a great feat against the warriors. They are a good defensive team but it’s not like they’re a great defensive team. I mean it’s not like he did it against the pistons of old.

 

[Russ Smith]

You say that like it’s a great feat against the warriors. They are a good defensive team but it’s not like they’re a great defensive team. I mean it’s not like he did it against the pistons of old.

Yep. One of the reasons the Warriors defense is so good now is that there aren't that many dominant low post bigs so they can get away with playing that small lineup. I love Draymond's defense but against the vintage Celtics or Pistons, way too small to play the 5.

 

[HeHasRosen]

I don’t think a single poster on this board that doesn’t think it’s close between Jordan and Lebron.

Sigh.. im not going to go find it but im almost positive poop head said Lebron is not on MJ's level. Covert Rain definitely said Lebron is not up there with MJ. In this very thread. Words matter remember?

You say that like it’s a great feat against the warriors. They are a good defensive team but it’s not like they’re a great defensive team. I mean it’s not like he did it against the pistons of old.

They are a good defensive team. Klay, Durant and Draymond are all very good on D. People talk about Iggy being the Lebron stopper. He averaged +30 with Iggy guarding him. He is just unstoppable.

Jordan didn't have to play great shooters like this. The Knicks? No great perimeter shooters. Starks shot 41% Oakley couldn't shoot. Reggie Miller gave him problems. One good shooter on that Indiana team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lebron James:

51-8-8 the first 50-8-8 game in finals history. Highest shooting % on a 50 point night in finals history.

Its his 8th 40pt game of these playoffs. Most 40 pt games in playoff history. Ties Jerry West.

He has more 40pt games in the finals since he went back to Cleveland. (4 years) Than MJ has in his ENTIRE career! Against this Warriors team that is one of the best all time. Nuff said

You're 30 years old, which means you never watched MJ. 'Nuff said.

In 1993, Jordan beat TWO 60 plus win teams... both without HCA and averaged 42/8/6 in the Finals.

Look... if LeBron somehow pulls this miracle off, I'll have no problem saying he's as good as Jordan. Even right now, I think he's close and making a damn good case in this post-season. But here's what he hasn't done and what puts Jordan above everyone else, IMO.

Once Jordan won his first title, he was never beaten. Ripped off 3 straight titles, left the game for two years, then came back and led his Bulls to another 3 straight titles, not to mention 72 wins, 69 wins, and 62 wins (all coming at or after the age LeBron is now). You couldn't kill him. With HCA, without HCA, whether he could barely move in his legendary flu-game in swing-game 5 in Utah in 1997 where he put up 38/7/5/3/1 stat-line or when Pippen could barely move in Game 6 on the road in Utah in 1998 where NO ONE played well for the Bulls, in Utah and Jordan... at the age of 35, poured in 45, including the last four and singular moment in NBA history when he ended the series with a jumper for his sixth title.

LeBron's legend (and it is absolutely legend at this point) has yet to be written, but I think the toughest thing he probably can't overcome is the fact that once Michael became Michael, he LITERALLY NEVER lost a series, whether he was an underdog or favorite. Bron's had some ugly playoff meltdowns where his team was heavily favored and he and they crapped the bed (ECF v. Orlando, ESCF v. Boston where he flat out quit on the team and the Finals v. The Mavs where when the going got tough, the tough curled up into the fetal position).

That said, the counter there is that truly epic comeback against the 73 win Warriors team. And his Heat teams did beat ABSOLUTELY LOADED OKC/Spurs teams. If he were to somehow win this series, that would truly be the thing that NO ONE could say Michael accomplished and that is where the convo would become completely even, IMO... even with the title count at 4 v. 6.

There's no doubt of his greatness. But until he pulls something like that off, for me, there will be that sliver of difference between the guys.

They're both outrageous legends. One's just a little more legendary than the other.