Monty's 10 player rotation

[Mainstreet]

Any thoughts?

If Monty Williams plays a 10 man rotation I still kept coming up with 12-13 players that should see minutes based on match-ups and foul situation. Anyway it was fun to look at it. Here is how I sorted the Suns 15 player roster.

The first five are as follows:

1. Deandre Ayton
2. Devin Booker
3. Kelly Oubre
4. Dario Saric
5. Ricky Rubio

Second five:

6. Tyler Johnson
7. Mikal Bridges
8. Aron Baynes
9. Frank Kaminsky
10. Cam Johnson

Third five:

11. Ty Jerome (could crack second five)
12. Jevon Carter (a defensive stopper)
13. Cheick Diallo (injury or foul trouble could get him minutes)
14. Elie Okobo
15. Jalen Lecque

Two-way contract:

16. Jared Harper

 

[Mainstreet]

These player rotations may change or evolve over time.

Monty talks about the Suns being in the infant stage of their program and they will be adding new packages. He previously mentioned about running more plays to get Devin Booker involved.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[95pro]

I'm not sure if the lack luster play of the stars (Ayton, Booker) is making the rest of the team look better than they? Are we really as deep as we think we are? Maybe that second unit has great chemistry because they're all role players? How much time and effort do we invest in the development Jerome and Lecque? There's still a lot of questions to be answered. One important one, is who is that guard that comes in first off the bench to replace Rubio? Its a good thing having this problem, up to coaching to make the right decisions on playing time.

I don't have a clear cut opinion but on a few: Okobo can bow out, I still dont like him and I'd still take others over him, garbage time. Diallo, garbage time. Lecque, garbage time but has high upside.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not sure if the lack luster play of the stars (Ayton, Booker) is making the rest of the team look better than they? Are we really as deep as we think we are? Maybe that second unit has great chemistry because they're all role players? How much time and effort do we invest in the development Jerome and Lecque? There's still a lot of questions to be answered. One important one, is who is that guard that comes in first off the bench to replace Rubio? Its a good thing having this problem, up to coaching to make the right decisions on playing time.

I don't have a clear cut opinion but on a few: Okobo can bow out, I still dont like him and I'd still take others over him, garbage time. Diallo, garbage time. Lecque, garbage time but has high upside.

As much as I want to see the Suns firing on all cylinders coming out of the gate it is unrealistic with a new coach and 9 new players on their 15 man roster. I do think the Suns have the talent but it is going to take time for the players to mesh and develop chemistry as a team.

In my book, Ayton, Booker and Oubre are legitimate players that can take their game to the next level... perhaps star level.

I like Tyler Johnson as the first player off the bench if his sore knee is not a concern. He can play both guard positions.

I'm thrilled to have young players like Jerome and Lecque to develop. Jerome is much further along and could see regular minutes as things evolve. Especially in Jerome's favor is he can play both guard positions like Tyler Johnson. Cam Johnson seems ready to fill a role on the second unit.

 

[SirStefan32]

It will be interesting to see who ends up being the backup point guard. It will also be interesting to see how the power forward rotation plays out. I am also curious as to how much time they will find for Cam Johnson and how.

 

[95pro]

It will be interesting to see who ends up being the backup point guard. It will also be interesting to see how the power forward rotation plays out. I am also curious as to how much time they will find for Cam Johnson and how.

I'm not worried about Cam's production, he's way better than expected. Shooting, defensive positioning. I didnt realize his shot was that quick and how long he is. I do worry about his minutes, because we have Oubre, Saric and Bridges. Could Oubre/Bridges/Cam play the 2 spot with the second unit?

 

[Hoop Head]

Tyler Johnson will probably start the year as the first guard in for Rubio. I could see Devin sliding to PG if Bridges is the first guy in for Rubio though. I think Carter will start the year as the backup PG to groom him to take over for Tyler Johnson, who I expect to be dealt at the deadline, possibly before.

I think Cam will see time but he's probably the odd man out right now in the 2nd unit. We'll go with Kaminsky as the backup PF and Baynes as the backup C with Bridges as the backup wing. Moving Tyler Johnson will actually help get Cam minutes because Bridges could slide down to SG to allow Cam minutes at SF.

I think Jerome and Cam will see spot minutes before they get in the rotation. Kaminsky and Baynes won't be an every night 2nd unit frontcourt, some nights Baynes will sit or Kaminsky will to get Cam a little more time. It depends on matchups.

 

[Mainstreet]

It will be interesting to see who ends up being the backup point guard. It will also be interesting to see how the power forward rotation plays out. I am also curious as to how much time they will find for Cam Johnson and how.

Based only on preseason observations, Kaminsky has looked better than expected in shooting and passing the ball. Also he has made defenses honor his drive to the basket which makes him a better passer.

So far Baynes is not as effective as I had hoped. Of course it's only been preseason games. We will know more when the regular season starts. It's worth noting that Rubio and Baynes might have some fatigue carryover from World Cup play.

I think Cam's shooting will get him regular minutes with the second unit. How many I'm not sure. His ability defend may be a factor.

 

[Proximo]

Any thoughts?

If Monty Williams plays a 10 man rotation I still kept coming up with 12-13 players that should see minutes based on match-ups and foul situation. Anyway it was fun to look at it. Here is how I sorted the Suns 15 player roster.

The first five are as follows:

1. Deandre Ayton
2. Devin Booker
3. Kelly Oubre
4. Dario Saric
5. Ricky Rubio

Second five:

6. Tyler Johnson
7. Mikal Bridges
8. Aron Baynes
9. Frank Kaminsky
10. Cam Johnson

Third five:

11. Ty Jerome (could crack second five)
12. Jevon Carter (a defensive stopper)
13. Cheick Diallo (injury or foul trouble could get him minutes)
14. Elie Okobo
15. Jalen Lecque

Two-way contract:

16. Jared Harper

I just don't see anyway it's the same 10 every game.

Some games I would think leaving Baynes out of the rotation makes sense, in others Ty Jerome or Carter will be left out.
Like it or not somebody in the top 12 is probably always going to be injured, so it is probably not that big of an issue.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think it’s important to temper expectations for our bench.

Baynes has never been a heavy minutes guy in the nba for a reason. He’s limited athletically. Ideally he spells Ayton’s for a bit and gets physical with opposing physical centers. Expecting anything more from him is folly.

Kaminsky has looked good in preseason. Expecting the same production in any volume regular season minutes is likely silly too. He will likely he hit or miss. If he played consistently the way he played this preseason he would have never been made available. Now I’ll state that he could just be rounding into form as a younger veteran, but I certainly won’t have that expectation.

I suspect cam’s minutes to fluctuate greatly depending upon matchups, bridges and oubre’s availability (injuries or fouls), or whether he’s stroking the 3 (if he’s hitting I can see Monty leaving him in).

I think TJ is the first guard off the bench unless we want to throw some disruption at one of their guards, then carter will he put in. But I don’t suspect he’ll see long stretches due to his current limitations as a lead guard.

Everyone else likely only gets in due to injuries or blowouts.

 

[Mainstreet]

I just don't see anyway it's the same 10 every game.

Some games I would think leaving Baynes out of the rotation makes sense, in others Ty Jerome or Carter will be left out.
Like it or not somebody in the top 12 is probably always going to be injured, so it is probably not that big of an issue.

When I was going through the roster in my mind this is much the way I looked at it as well.

It's hard to see where Ty Jerome and Jevon Carter do not see some minutes.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think it’s important to temper expectations for our bench.

Baynes has never been a heavy minutes guy in the nba for a reason. He’s limited athletically. Ideally he spells Ayton’s for a bit and gets physical with opposing physical centers. Expecting anything more from him is folly.

Kaminsky has looked good in preseason. Expecting the same production in any volume regular season minutes is likely silly too. He will likely he hit or miss. If he played consistently the way he played this preseason he would have never been made available. Now I’ll state that he could just be rounding into form as a younger veteran, but I certainly won’t have that expectation.

I suspect cam’s minutes to fluctuate greatly depending upon matchups, bridges and oubre’s availability (injuries or fouls), or whether he’s stroking the 3 (if he’s hitting I can see Monty leaving him in).

I think TJ is the first guard off the bench unless we want to throw some disruption at one of their guards, then carter will he put in. But I don’t suspect he’ll see long stretches due to his current limitations as a lead guard.

Everyone else likely only gets in due to injuries or blowouts.

This can be true. Reality has a bad way of creeping into the equation.

Years past I thought the Suns were really deep only to realize once the season started, a lot of players were simply not comparable to other NBA talent. I don't think this is true of this roster but only time will tell for sure.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This can be true. Reality has a bad way of creeping into the equation.

Years past I thought the Suns were really deep only to realize once the season started, a lot of players were simply not comparable to other NBA talent. I don't think this is true of this roster but only time will tell for sure.

I think it’s easy to get lost in day dreams about the talent in our bench now because we are comparing it to last seasons bench. The mere fact we have nba players coming off the bench feels like we have all stars.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think it’s easy to get lost in day dreams about the talent in our bench now because we are comparing it to last seasons bench. The mere fact we have nba players coming off the bench feels like we have all stars.

So much this ^. I'm really glad that 2k20 came out before preseason because that helped make me realize our bench is made up of bench players and not guys who are potential starters who have guaranteed themselves big minutes in the rotation. I do think we have really good depth in that there isn't much difference between the #7 guy in the rotation and #12 guy. Any injuries to our reserves shouldn't be a reason for concern because I have little doubt that Carter, Cam, and Jerome can step into a rotation role if needed but they're not needed right away.

Look at the bench and other than Bridges, who would crack the rotation on a title team? Tyler Johnson, maybe, and Baynes probably sees 10-15 minutes of time, depending on the matchups. That's it. Kaminsky wouldn't help last year's Raptors or Warriors and neither would Ty Jerome, Javon Carter, or Cam Johnson. Cam might be thrown out there to see if his shot is falling but that's only because the Warriors had a ton of injuries, he doesn't play for the Raptors at all.

I'm not saying we have a terrible bench but the disparity in talent between our starters and bench players is pretty big. In order to become a playoff team we need to add at least 2 more guys who look like they could start somewhere in the league. Cam Johnson may become that and I think Javon Carter has an outside shot at that also, but I don't think either is likely to happen this year or next. They're both good role players to have at the end of the rotation but we need more actual midlevel talent to compete and we lack that right now.

Maybe when, if, we trade Tyler Johnson we can bring back 2 players in sort of a salary dump from another team. Sort of like the Boston trade years ago where the Suns sent Tony Delk and Rodney Rodgers out for Joe Johnson. Tyler Johnson isn't a young promising player like Joe but he is a big fat expiring contract and that might be worth something for the right team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think it’s important to temper expectations for our bench.

Baynes has never been a heavy minutes guy in the nba for a reason. He’s limited athletically. Ideally he spells Ayton’s for a bit and gets physical with opposing physical centers. Expecting anything more from him is folly.

Kaminsky has looked good in preseason. Expecting the same production in any volume regular season minutes is likely silly too. He will likely he hit or miss. If he played consistently the way he played this preseason he would have never been made available. Now I’ll state that he could just be rounding into form as a younger veteran, but I certainly won’t have that expectation.

I suspect cam’s minutes to fluctuate greatly depending upon matchups, bridges and oubre’s availability (injuries or fouls), or whether he’s stroking the 3 (if he’s hitting I can see Monty leaving him in).

I think TJ is the first guard off the bench unless we want to throw some disruption at one of their guards, then carter will he put in. But I don’t suspect he’ll see long stretches due to his current limitations as a lead guard.

Everyone else likely only gets in due to injuries or blowouts.

I agree with you about Baynes, I do not so much about Kaminsky. He was an excellent player in college and has the size and skill set to be a regular rotation guy in the NBA. It does take big men longer to adjust usually. To me, Kaminsky is a Brook Lopez type of player. He won't be a star, but will become increasingly valuable over time, especially with coaches who know how to use him effectively.

 

[Proximo]

I agree with you about Baynes, I do not so much about Kaminsky. He was an excellent player in college and has the size and skill set to be a regular rotation guy in the NBA. It does take big men longer to adjust usually. To me, Kaminsky is a Brook Lopez type of player. He won't be a star, but will become increasingly valuable over time, especially with coaches who know how to use him effectively.

When Kaminsky is used as a power forward, I think he is very effective. His weakness is his interior defense, rim protection, and post defense. When he guards 4's that is becoming less and less of a problem as more and more of them are camping at the 3 point line.

I have been disapointed with Baynes so far. I do see the great screens he sets, but his superior defense I am not seeing. His inside finishing has not looked very good either.

Hopefully he is a good influence chemistry wise, because in terms of quality of play I am more sure than ever Rashaun Holmes is the better player.

 

[Mainstreet]

When Kaminsky is used as a power forward, I think he is very effective. His weakness is his interior defense, rim protection, and post defense. When he guards 4's that is becoming less and less of a problem as more and more of them are camping at the 3 point line.

I have been disapointed with Baynes so far. I do see the great screens he sets, but his superior defense I am not seeing. His inside finishing has not looked very good either.

Hopefully he is a good influence chemistry wise, because in terms of quality of play I am more sure than ever Rashaun Holmes is the better player.

I agree about Kaminsky. My hope is he might become an equal or better version of Channing Frye.

Baynes is a solid backup center but I would have preferred Holmes as well.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Holmes is glued to an area about 6 feet from the rim on offense. He does hustle and should be applauded for that. But if I am trying to install a new offense, I would rather have Baynes.

 

[Raze]

As for a general minutes breakdown per game, I'd go:

PG:
Rubio: 32
Carter: 10
Jerome: 6

I want this position to become as seamless as possible on the defensive end. Book will always need security blankets at PG and SF on D. Rubio and Carter fulfill this end. Playing Jerome with Book will be inviting disaster on D. Jerome can play some minutes with Johnson at SG (I guess).

SG:
Book: 32
Johnson: 14
Bridges: 2(?)

I don't give Book 1 minute of time at PG. Let him become the stud SG that he is destined to be. No reason to distract him. I don't see anyone on this roster that can effectively play this spot behind Johnson. Maybe Bridges. I'd field test that one and see how it goes. Book's minutes need to come down to a more reasonable playing level. He can't hold up at 35 mpg. Johnson is not a SG, but he might compliment Jerome (I'm suspect of this).

SF:
Bridges: 20
Oubre: 18
Cam: 10

I hate taking minutes away from Bridges, but Oubre deserves time too. They both will play some small ball PF so they'll get more time. I also don't love putting Oubre next to Book on D. He's not a terrible defender, he's just far too inconsistent. Bridges is an all D team candidate at SF.

PF:

Saric: 25
Oubre: 10
Bridges: 6
Frank: 7

This position is going to be all over the place anyway. Frank is a massive liability on D and should only be used for scoring punch off the bench. Oubre and Bridges will get their here work via matchups.

C:
Ayton: 32
Baynes: 16

This position should stay locked in to build chemistry. Mess around all you want with SF/PF, don't touch PG/SG/C.

For total minutes per game this yields:
Rubio: 32
Book: 32
Ayton: 32
Oubre: 28
Saric: 25

Bridges: 28
Baynes: 16
Johnson: 14
Carter: 10
Cam: 10
Frank: 7
Jerome: 6

This should give them plenty of time to build chemistry and be effective without taxing them to the point of injury. Also gives solid time to our future (Book, Bridges, Ayton) without sacrificing the present.

*Forgive me if my numbers are off. Tried my best to keep it accurate.

 

[95pro]

I really think we should just play Rubio and Tyler at pg. There's not enough minutes for those two PLUS Carter and Jerome. There just wouldn't be any continuity with 3 backups: Tyler, Carter, Jerome.

Then we have the Oubre and Bridges situation, along with Cam and Saric.

 

[Chaplin]

The wild card for me is Kaminsky. Yes it’s preseason but he was the most consistent offensive player on the floor. I could see him playing more than 7mpg. Easily. I think there is even a chance he could legit compete with Saric for starting.

 

[BC867]

Thanks to Mainstreet and Raze for their thorough proposals
for roster positions and proposed minutes. They sound like
excellent balanced combos. Although I do agree with Chap's
and JC's assessments about Kaminsky getting more time.

It will be interesting to see how close they come to Monty's
decision, the chemistry that ultimately develops and how
injuries affect it.

 

[BC867]

I just don't see anyway it's the same 10 every game.

Some games I would think leaving Baynes out of the rotation makes sense, in others Ty Jerome or Carter will be left out.
Like it or not somebody in the top 12 is probably always going to be injured, so it is probably not that big of an issue.

I hope Monty settles on a consistent starting 5 early in the season to build chemistry. As far as the
rest of the rotation, I could see changes due to matchups.

Although I would rather see the Suns force the matchups for a change, rather than reacting to them.

Matchup = catchup. Catchup = stress.

It might not apply to this roster, but I really enjoyed the time back in the day when the Suns employed
two 5-man rotations for perfect chemistry.

 

[Hoop Head]

I couldn't find the copy of the rotation I put together a while back. If anyone wants to give it a shot though here is a link to a website where you build a complete rotation. Pick the Suns in the top left, or a little lower than top left, and it will fill in all of the players. It's pretty easy to figure out but a lot harder to do than just saying "Booker gets 34 minutes, Ayton 32, Oubre 30..." and so on. You need to assign a position to each player for each minute. It's fun to play with but it gives you an idea of how hard it will be for an NBA coach.



https://earlybirdrights.com/rotations/

 

[Mainstreet]

It's interesting to me the Suns have not made a decision about their backup point guard. In my book it is Tyler Johnson unless Monty views him as mostly a shooting guard. Of course he might want to keep the competition open.

Here is an excerpt from a Duane Rankin article:


Williams has said the backup "one" has to be “the most steady” player on the team because he plays with both units. Jevon Carter and rookie Ty Jerome are two players battling for that position.

“The process has to play out,” Williams said. “I want this week to be a week of competition. I will say this, I still haven’t made my decision. I was close, but all of the guys who are in that particular spot, they’re competing. I want to exhaust all the time that we have to make a good decision.”


https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...e-before-next-weeks-season-opener/4003899002/


If the position is still up in the air, this might give Jevon Carter or Ty Jerome the opportunity to win the backup point guard position.

If it is Jerome and Johnson, there is a lot to like by having two guards who can play both guard positions on the second unit. It would provide more offensive punch.

Jevon Carter has become a favorite of mine as well with his defense.