Move Shaq to the Bench

[atikiN]

I'll start by saying I think Shaq has been playing really well this season for us and this has nothing to do with his productivity.

However it seems to me that to get the most out of Shaq and Nash, we can't have both of them on the floor at the same time.

So, Nash/Amare can run the pick and roll for half the night and then Shaq/Singletary or Dragic can work their magic off the bench.

By running the offence through Shaq, we're taking away Nash's ability to make plays and limiting Amare's productivity. Shaq doesn't need an experienced and creative pointguard to make shots for him, the big fella can do that himself. I believe this might be the best option to get the most out of our big 3.

This would also allow Porter to limit Shaq's minutes each game and not have him sit out on back to backs.

Anyway, this is just a theory and I'd love to hear what you guys think.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

If you watch every suns game this season, the first play on offense goes into shaq, as does the majority of the plays early in the game. This is intentional for a few reasons:

A- potential for opponent's big man to get into foul trouble early. This will allow us to run more and rack up a lead in theory.

2- It gets shaq in the game. This is the main reason. It gets his adrenaline pumping and his body in motion, allowing him to run the floor better and be more determined. He is less prone to jogging to either end of the floor because he is a crucial part of both sides of the floor now.

D- Redirects the focus off Amare. Every coach knows Amare is the most deadly force on this team. They focus their defensive approach to making sure he cant blow by his opponent at the elbow of the point and have an uncontested dunk. Going to shaq often enough in the beginning disrupts the defensive focus, allowing Amare to capitalize on the opponents' redirection. Amare doesnt need to get started as early as shaq does to motivate him.

Thirdly- fans pay to see Shaq. This is a business. No one pays top dollar to see Shaq on the bench for the tipoff.

D- You dont put 20 million dollars assets on the bench unless youre in new york.

 

[nowagimp]

By running the offence through Shaq, we're taking away Nash's ability to make plays and limiting Amare's productivity.

No kidding, I agree on this point. Amare/Nash do not run the pick and rol effectively with shaq on the floor. shaqs man is always hanging around in the lane. The real downside is that the league has figured out how to beat the suns with both shaq and amare on the floor: pack the lane on D, let the shooters shoot from outside, and attack the basket on offense, draw the foul or dish to the wide open shooters. The shooters are wide open because the suns are collapsing to the lane area to protect amare and shaq from foul trouble. Porters(addelmans) offense is well known in the NBA, its not hard to prepare for, esp when the suns dont have the shooters to run it.

 

[SirStefan32]

Shaq is one of very very few things that are working out for the Suns so far this year.
Putting Shaq on the bench is not an option. I'd love to see Porter's reaction if someone mentioned the possibility of moving Shaq to the 2nd unit. You'd once again have no inside presence, you'd have no rebounding, etc.
Suns could not win that way when they were younger and better, and they will not win that way (7 seconds or less/run-and-gun) now.

 

[atikiN]

D- Redirects the focus off Amare. Every coach knows Amare is the most deadly force on this team. They focus their defensive approach to making sure he cant blow by his opponent at the elbow of the point and have an uncontested dunk. Going to shaq often enough in the beginning disrupts the defensive focus, allowing Amare to capitalize on the opponents' redirection. Amare doesn't need to get started as early as shaq does to motivate him.

And if Amare had been capitalizing on the opponents redirection, I wouldn't be making this post. However, Amare's role on the team has become secondary to Shaq, which is not a good direction for the Suns to be heading into. Porter needs to figure out how to make Amare the go to guy, not a guy who waits for Shaq to try and draw all the attention. Our offences future does not go through Shaq and we need to recognize that.

Shaq is one of very very few things that are working out for the Suns so far this year.

I agree, Shaq has been very productive. But that's because he's become the focus of the offence. We barely see the Nash/Amare pick and roll anymore and Amare seems like a role player instead of the go to guy for big portions of the game.

Going to Shaq is working but just barely, I'm just saying maybe Porter should be a little more open to experimenting with the roster while it's still early in the season because it sure would suck to find out that this isn't the best way to go by the time it's too late.

 

[AfroSuns]

You make good point but there is no way that will happen, at least not this season and not with Shaq's current production.

 

[dodie53]

the suns should go to amare early in the game, not to shaq.

 

[S_Nash]

the suns should go to amare early in the game, not to shaq.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZOOOMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Shzm13]

I agree with everything YouJustGotSUNSD said

 

[Covert Rain]

Shaq is one of very very few things that are working out for the Suns so far this year.
Putting Shaq on the bench is not an option. I'd love to see Porter's reaction if someone mentioned the possibility of moving Shaq to the 2nd unit. You'd once again have no inside presence, you'd have no rebounding, etc.
Suns could not win that way when they were younger and better, and they will not win that way (7 seconds or less/run-and-gun) now.

So agree. No inside game. No defense in the paint. We have already established how far we can go with Amare at center. Also, with Shaq we don't have to worry about Amare getting into foul trouble every other night. Also, putting yourself into an early rebounding hole is probably not good either.

Really, if we wanted to continue playing small ball.....we should have kept D'Antoni.

 

[HERD]

The Suns were down for little while,
As anybody would,
When Donahy and Stern and Pop
Inwaded the Sherwood
Suns looked around, they couldn't find
Enough defence to match
The teams that were pulled by the eares (*****)
Garnett Gasol and such
The management gave up on Suns
Long long long time ago
But still Nash goes to do his best
Diaw or no Diaw
And when time came to reajust
(with all our eyes to Knicks)
Coach Porter whome we gave a chance
Goes screwing our team
Enough we say, we do believe
There's another way...
Just give us back Amare-Nash
Barbosa-Raja play
The run-and-gun D'Antoni style
Suns can't repeat - trademark
But with Matt Barnes on our team
Could we stay off of Shaq?...
Shaquill O'Neal - beautiful guy,
But can not not not decide:
He wants win Steve Nash the Ring
Or be a circus clown

So, what the Suns to do
to win and win and win again
1. Make Stevie Nashy player-coach
2. Make Shaq to go away
3. Barbosa - back to gym to shoot 300 everyday
4. Diaw to make to dress like girl each time he miss' lay
5. Grant Hill - the best to cover us
6. Amare being ass
7. And Raja Bell the best of all
(of course after STEVE NASH !)

 

[SirStefan32]

So agree. No inside game. No defense in the paint. We have already established how far we can go with Amare at center. Also, with Shaq we don't have to worry about Amare getting into foul trouble every other night. Also, putting yourself into an early rebounding hole is probably not good either.

Really, if we wanted to continue playing small ball.....we should have kept D'Antoni.

That's what I don't get- why all the nostalgia about D'Antoni? We watched D'Antoni, small-ball, run-and-gun, seven seconds of less fail for several years. We have established that it doesn't work, but suddenly, about 50% of the board seems to have forgotten all the negatives and want D'Antoni back.
D'Antoni run-and-gun small ball is like an ex girlfriend that was really really bad for you. It's fine to think of the good times, but never forget that it just didn't work.

For years, we've needed a real center and a real power forward. We finally have it, and people want to go back to small ball where you can't score inside, you can't grab rebounds which results in a lot of 2nd chance points for opponents, no defense, etc.

We tried it, it didn't work- not even close. Also, let's not forget that the closest Suns ever got to winning anything in D'Antoni era was without Amare. Tim Thomas is gone, Marion is gone, Boris Diaw has returned to being Doris Diaw, Nash and Bell are old- there is no more small ball. Even if Porter wanted to run and gun, this team is not capable of it, so I really don't understand this sudden love fest with run and gun small ball.

Anyway, happy thanksgiving everyone and go Suns!

 

[Covert Rain]

D'Antoni run-and-gun small ball is like an ex girlfriend that was really really bad for you. It's fine to think of the good times, but never forget that it just didn't work.

Great analogy.

Happy Turkey day all.

 

[mojorizen7]

D'Antoni run-and-gun small ball is like an ex girlfriend that was really really bad for you. It's fine to think of the good times, but never forget that it just didn't work.

LOL. For sure. I've got an exgirlfriend like that. She was everything i ever wanted but didn't really need.
The D'Antonites are still bitter over things like untimely injuries,questionable suspensions, and ultimately....the departure of their 3 ring circus entertainment leader himself.
They're reaching deep into the statbooks for reasons that the 11-5 SUNS are gonna implode,aren't any better defensively, can't beat the NBA's best teams,how having a deeper bench doesn't matter,how Shaq is ruining Nash's game,how Shaq is making Raja play like $h!t,how the 7-8 NY Knicks are gonna be a team to be reckoned with etc.
Sure i miss the constant alley-oops to Marion in transition,the one pass fast break layup in under 3 seconds and all that fun stuff but i don't miss the constant ownage on the other end and the dumb coaching just to be "different" than the rest despite the championship blueprint.
I will glady accept the criticism from the bitter D'Antonites about the current SUNS's deficiency's if they're still uncorrected later on in the season.

Anyway, happy thanksgiving everyone and go Suns!

Happy Turkey Day everyone......including the D'Antonites.

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[dodie53]

i just wish Nash would get his act together, adjust and don't do so much things he was used to doing.

if he is really dying to run,
he should just play soccer.

 

[nowagimp]

We tried it, it didn't work- not even close. Also, let's not forget that the closest Suns ever got to winning anything in D'Antoni era was without Amare. Tim Thomas is gone, Marion is gone, Boris Diaw has returned to being Doris Diaw, Nash and Bell are old- there is no more small ball. Even if Porter wanted to run and gun, this team is not capable of it, so I really don't understand this sudden love fest with run and gun small ball.

Anyway, happy thanksgiving everyone and go Suns!

LOL, funny, the suns are now 8-0 when they score 100+pts and 1-5 when they dont. The spots havent changed, its still a leopard, DA or no DA, they still lose to the elite overwhelmingly. The porter suns are fools gold for the fan of conventional BBall. It sure is a shiny, glittering 11-5, enjoy!

 

[Covert Rain]

LOL, funny, the suns are now 8-0 when they score 100+pts and 1-5 when they dont. The spots havent changed, its still a leopard, DA or no DA, they still lose to the elite overwhelmingly. The porter suns are fools gold for the fan of conventional BBall. It sure is a shiny, glittering 11-5, enjoy!

So basically we have traded D'Antoni's fools gold for Porters. If that's the case, I will take Porters fools gold and his attempts at making this team better defensivley and showing this team how to play in half court sets.

If at the end of the day we don't have the horses to win a title, at least we can say we made the necessary changes then going with the fools gold we had under D'Antoni year after year.

 

[Caliballfan]

I thought he got off to a nice start, what happened? why is a move to the bench necessary for Shaq?

 

[Andrew]

He is producing more than some of you thought he could and don't come in here with the "Shaq lover" comments, its the truth. He isn't THE problem, he contributes with the touches he gets, he can't help it if they can't get him the ball, especially last night. He is a part of a problem, but not entirely it.

 

[nowagimp]

So basically we have traded D'Antoni's fools gold for Porters. If that's the case, I will take Porters fools gold and his attempts at making this team better defensivley and showing this team how to play in half court sets.

If at the end of the day we don't have the horses to win a title, at least we can say we made the necessary changes then going with the fools gold we had under D'Antoni year after year.

Yep, fans were fooled when DA's teams frequently played close games with the elite. At least now you can see they are getting throttled by the elite, you can save some time, and your voice. With blowouts like these, it surely can't be due to 4-5 bad calls by the refs.
this team wont need a major injury to a rotation player for a hasty first round exit in the playoffs.

 

[Mainstreet]

So basically we have traded D'Antoni's fools gold for Porters. If that's the case, I will take Porters fools gold and his attempts at making this team better defensivley and showing this team how to play in half court sets.

If at the end of the day we don't have the horses to win a title, at least we can say we made the necessary changes then going with the fools gold we had under D'Antoni year after year.

I'm tired of defending D'Antoni to those fans who dislike him. Yeah, Porter is really showing the fans how to get the job done.

Porter's offense and defense are great... not.

Ever think D'Antoni got the maximum mileage out the players he had? The Suns might have been only an average team without his system and Nash probably would have never won two MVP's. Also have you considered the Suns may have never had the players to play good defense.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm tired of defending D'Antoni to those fans who dislike him. Yeah, Porter is really showing the fans how to get the job done.

Porter's offense and defense are great... not.

Ever think D'Antoni got the maximum mileage out the players he had? The Suns might have been only an average team without his system and Nash probably would have never won two MVP's. Also have you considered the Suns may have never had the players to play good defense.

Considering that many players have already gone on record stating that D'Antoni didn't spend much time preaching defense in practice...wouldn't you say it's a little more then that?

For the record...I don't hate D'Antoni. I appreciate what he did for this team and making it exciting. He made the Suns fun to watch again. However, at the end of the day I want a title and I just don't believe any team can get there playing small ball.

Did D'Antoni have the horses? Maybe not but many would argue a coach like POP or Phil etc...could have done more with this team. Would Steve had won the MVP's? Maybe not. However, I don't care if we had 10 MVPs in a row on this team. It means nothing without a title.

It was time to move on. Porter would not have been my first choice as coach but that doesn't mean we still should not have moved on. This team is playing better defense (which is why they hired him) but worse offense. I have seen this team play better half court sets then in the past (which is what many on this board have been clammering for). Porter might not be the guy we need. I give it to the Suns for at least finding out.

This team was never going to win a title under D'Antoni IMO. Even if it takes us years to find the right coach and the right mix of players, it doesn't make the D'Antoni era any less entertaining or mean that it wasn't time for him to go.

 

[nowagimp]

Considering that many players have already gone on record stating that D'Antoni didn't spend much time preaching defense in practice...wouldn't you say it's a little more then that?

For the record...I don't hate D'Antoni. I appreciate what he did for this team and making it exciting. He made the Suns fun to watch again. However, at the end of the day I want a title and I just don't believe any team can get there playing small ball.

Did D'Antoni have the horses? Maybe not but many would argue a coach like POP or Phil etc...could have done more with this team. Would Steve had won the MVP's? Maybe not. However, I don't care if we had 10 MVPs in a row on this team. It means nothing without a title.

It was time to move on. Porter would not have been my first choice as coach but that doesn't mean we still should not have moved on. This team is playing better defense (which is why they hired him) but worse offense. I have seen this team play better half court sets then in the past (which is what many on this board have been clammering for). Porter might not be the guy we need. I give it to the Suns for at least finding out.

This team was never going to win a title under D'Antoni IMO. Even if it takes us years to find the right coach and the right mix of players, it doesn't make the D'Antoni era any less entertaining or mean that it wasn't time for him to go.

Well, PJ couldnt get his deep talented lakers past Doc Rivers Celts, because they couldnt defend well in the paint, sound familiar? Alot of posters like yourself think just practicing defense makes good defensive teams/players. But Battier, artest, chuch hayes on the suns with DA as coach, and they would play good defense, regardless of coach. The rockets play good defense with addelman as coach, NOT a defensive coach by any evaluation.

The suns didnt need to "spend time on fundamentals or concentrate on defense more" to be good defenders, they needed good defenders, starting in the paint and extending to the perimeter. the spurs were bad defensively last year with a few injuries, just bad, and POPs said as much. Kerr is responsible for the personnel as GM, and he wanted to play this style and didnt have the players to do it. Place the blame where it is deserved.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, PJ couldnt get his deep talented lakers past Doc Rivers Celts, because they couldnt defend well in the paint, sound familiar? Alot of posters like yourself think just practicing defense makes good defensive teams/players. But Battier, artest, chuch hayes on the suns with DA as coach, and they would play good defense, regardless of coach. The rockets play good defense with addelman as coach, NOT a defensive coach by any evaluation.

The suns didnt need to "spend time on fundamentals or concentrate on defense more" to be good defenders, they needed good defenders, starting in the paint and extending to the perimeter. the spurs were bad defensively last year with a few injuries, just bad, and POPs said as much. Kerr is responsible for the personnel as GM, and he wanted to play this style and didnt have the players to do it. Place the blame where it is deserved.

my only problem with the above is DA completely gave up the 2007 SA series by stubbornly refusing to play KT solid minutes in Game 1. Duncan and Parker went nuts in that game, our defense was horrendous and Amare got in early foul trouble because of it. In fact, KT seemed to only come in when Duncan went OUT. I was furious during that game that DA still believed we could beat that team small. We lost that game and it was up hill against a team that owned us. DA's stubborn-ness was a blessing and a curse.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I'll start by saying I think Shaq has been playing really well this season for us and this has nothing to do with his productivity.

However it seems to me that to get the most out of Shaq and Nash, we can't have both of them on the floor at the same time.

So, Nash/Amare can run the pick and roll for half the night and then Shaq/Singletary or Dragic can work their magic off the bench.

By running the offence through Shaq, we're taking away Nash's ability to make plays and limiting Amare's productivity. Shaq doesn't need an experienced and creative pointguard to make shots for him, the big fella can do that himself. I believe this might be the best option to get the most out of our big 3.

This would also allow Porter to limit Shaq's minutes each game and not have him sit out on back to backs.

Anyway, this is just a theory and I'd love to hear what you guys think.

You can't start because I suggested that we do that a couple weeks ago. You can jump aboard though.