Moving On at ILB

[Mitch]

As disappointing as DW's suspension is---it isn't going to stop the momentum the Cardinals are building toward this season. Steve Keim will make a couple of moves in the next few days and weeks.

The Cardinals may actually be better off without Washington, especially when this team is so dedicated and unified in its pursuit of the NFC West title. When a player isn't all in---it sets the team back. Darnell Dockett implied that in his tweets. DW didn't play anywhere near as well last year as he did in 2012. He still was good, but he wasn't as explosive. Because of how strong the Cardinals are up front, it sets up any ILB with talent to be super productive. This is one of the reasons why Dansby had his best season ever last year and why he is going to have a very hard time duplicating his 2013 production in Cleveland this year.

The current FA market at ILB is very thin. The best of the remaining players are Ernie Sims (who would have to transition his game into the inside---which with his skill set is quite feasible), Pat Angerer (injury concerns) and Nick Barnett (torn MCL---but if he can come back strong, his ability as a 3 down ILB could be just what the Cardinals need. He is 33, but then again Dansby is 32.

A trade that would make a good deal of sense is to send TE Rob Housler to Tennessee (where he reunites with CKW) for LB Zach Brown (6-1, 242, 3, North Carolina, D2-2012) or Zaviar Gooden (6-1, 234, 2, Missouri, D3-2013). The Titans have excellent depth at ILB with starters Colin McCarthy and UFA Wesley Woodyard and thus they are in a position to deal Brown or Gooden.

Zach Brown and Zaviar Gooden are the type of ILB athletes in the DW mode because they are fast, quick to the ball tacklers and very able in pass coverage. Both are relatively young and would be under contract for the next 2-3 years (respectively).

With the current depth that Steve Keim has built at TE, Housler has become a trade piece. Josh Weinfuss of ESPN recently tweeted that there's a good chance the Cardinals will trade Housler.

What the Cardinals need is an athletic 3 down ILB---Kevin Minter should be very good as the two down thumper ILB, and Larry Foote should help as a two down ILB backup---but neither of them is a 3 down cover guy.

 

[Harry]

I can't picture anyone trading for Housler as he will likely be cut anyway. If the Cards want to trade from such an obvious position of need it will cost them dearly. The NFL is full of vultures.

 

[Garthshort]

I would think that if the team is satisfied with their TE's, and that is questionable considering the injury issue, then I would think that Housler could be showcased in the PS games, in order to draw trade interest. It might just be wishful thinking and Harry is probably right. With our luck he'll have a great ps and the team will decide to keep him. (smiley face).

In the short term, BA will declare. "next man up".

 

[GimmedaBall]

Barnett listed as a OLB in 2012 so he would be making the move inside as well. Sims looks like the best of the current possibilities---if he fits Bowles scheme and type of player. Cards need to make a move fast since the Cowpies are also in the market for a LB.

While we can look for a solution in bringing in a player, another possibilty is for the coaches to scheme based on our current talent. We have a better idea going into this year how to manipulate our D game plan based on talent available. We have two OLB returning from injury, a new SS who can play close in the box. We have lots of talent with our CBs---need to get Bethel and his speed/instincts on the field more and perhaps blitz to cover up any deficiency with the pass coverage out of the ILB position. We have Okafor at pass rushing DE returning from a bicep injury (making him a second-year rookie). Foote was a pretty good ILB in 2012 before his injury and brings veteran knowledge/presence. Also, we are not giving Minter enough credit as to improving his pass coverage skills after a year in the system---Minter was a run-stopper and thumper---that alone will give receivers pause before try to run across the middle of the D.

DW was a superior player at a position that is not as vital as some of the other positions on the field. CC is an elite player on our D and is underrated for the work he does---our DL effort on the front is what makes our ILB look so good. Any LBer playing behind CC is going to look good. See Dansby's numbers for last year. If our DL does their part, a replacement ILB will be putting up the numbers. If our coaching staff can cover for the lack of a LT via scheme and play calling---I expect the same success covering for an absent ILB in a 3-4 scheme.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Good call on Washington Mitch.

You and a few other posters didn't want to pay him the roster, and wanted to trade him.

Gotta give you your props on that.

I am on board, a little too late, but on board none the less.

Get rid of DWaste, asap. He will be 29 when this is all said and done, and cannot be trusted.

Not to mention he stole 10 million dollars, a roster spot, cost us Karlos Dansby, and countless other things that I don't have the time to list because I am trying to stop talking and putting energy into anything DWaste related cause he has already wasted everyone's time.

Horrible.

But as you state, only thing that can be done is move forward.

 

[82CardsGrad]

While you are right about Washington not being all in and therefore his negative presence is best removed, the reality is you didn't offer any realistic, viable solution to fill the void he leaves behind. Dansby had a great season last year due in very large part because he had Washington at his side for most of the season! Now we lose not one, but BOTH! And, because the team thought Washington would be here, we made no draft picks and no meaningful FA moves to address the ILB position.
This is a HUGE problem. We will have zero hope of covering a TE this season. If I were an opposing team, I would run two friggin TE sets all game long! Add to this mess a rookie SS who, according to reports has a TON to learn in pass coverage, I really believe our offense is going to have to out up 30 points per game just to keep us close...


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[GimmedaBall]

While you are right about Washington not being all in and therefore his negative presence is best removed, the reality is you didn't offer any realistic, viable solution to fill the void he leaves behind. Dansby had a great season last year due in very large part because he had Washington at his side for most of the season! Now we lose not one, but BOTH! And, because the team thought Washington would be here, we made no draft picks and no meaningful FA moves to address the ILB position.
This is a HUGE problem. We will have zero hope of covering a TE this season. If I were an opposing team, I would run two friggin TE sets all game long! Add to this mess a rookie SS who, according to reports has a TON to learn in pass coverage, I really believe our offense is going to have to out up 30 points per game just to keep us close...


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What solution do you have to offer? Mitch suggested a trade of TE Housler for a ILB from the Titans. You summed it very well by saying that the team thought Washington would be here---why would the team bring in additional ILBers if that is what they were basing their roster around?

 

[82CardsGrad]

What solution do you have to offer? Mitch suggested a trade of TE Housler for a ILB from the Titans. You summed it very well by saying that the team thought Washington would be here---why would the team bring in additional ILBers if that is what they were basing their roster around?

That's my point... There is no viable solution. That's how bad this situation is. We lose Dansby and didn't draft an ILB because we thought out stud would be here. Now we don't have Dansby, don't have any draftees and don't have our stud. And there is zilcho available on FA and there is zero chance of getting anything of mediocre quality in a trade...
Seriously, TE's are gonna roll us like never before!!!


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[GimmedaBall]

That's my point... There is no viable solution. That's how bad this situation is. We lose Dansby and didn't draft an ILB because we thought out stud would be here. Now we don't have Dansby, don't have any draftees and don't have our stud. And there is zilcho available on FA and there is zero chance of getting anything of mediocre quality in a trade...
Seriously, TE's are gonna roll us like never before!!!


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I appreciate your frustration---check the forum to see how many fans are equally angry at DW for putting the Cards into this situation! Of course there are solutions. Cards are not going to tank the season just because a player they were counting on is out. We will lose more players over the season due to injury, etc. I guess the difference is the suspension is self-inflicted while injuries are anticipated ways players are gone for the season.

Look at this as a big challenge to both the Cards mgmt and to the players to overcome. I expect our front office to rise to the challenge and bring in the best possible replacement be it FA, trade, etc. I also expect our players to rally around and cover the talent difference by stepping up their own play. I expect our coaches to game plan and put players in position to succeed and to play situational ball. There is a reason BASK keep drafting players who were team captains on their college team---it is for times like this when the going gets rough and character steps up and makes the play and pushes the team forward. Next man up has meaning. Those are very viable solutions when a player is out of the lineup.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I appreciate your frustration---check the forum to see how many fans are equally angry at DW for putting the Cards into this situation! Of course there are solutions. Cards are not going to tank the season just because a player they were counting on is out. We will lose more players over the season due to injury, etc. I guess the difference is the suspension is self-inflicted while injuries are anticipated ways players are gone for the season.

Look at this as a big challenge to both the Cards mgmt and to the players to overcome. I expect our front office to rise to the challenge and bring in the best possible replacement be it FA, trade, etc. I also expect our players to rally around and cover the talent difference by stepping up their own play. I expect our coaches to game plan and put players in position to succeed and to play situational ball. There is a reason BASK keep drafting players who were team captains on their college team---it is for times like this when the going gets rough and character steps up and makes the play and pushes the team forward. Next man up has meaning. Those are very viable solutions when a player is out of the lineup.

I expect BASK and our players and coaches to do all of that as well. And I expect opposing TE's to roll us like never before...
Doesn't mean we won't win games... Just means that our chances for post season success are greatly diminished. It means we will now need to rely upon guys more than we should. We will need more points from our offense than we might have needed had Washington not been a selfish moron...



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[jmt]

Good call on Washington Mitch.

You and a few other posters didn't want to pay him the roster, and wanted to trade him.

Gotta give you your props on that.

I am on board, a little too late, but on board none the less.

Get rid of DWaste, asap. He will be 29 when this is all said and done, and cannot be trusted.

Not to mention he stole 10 million dollars, a roster spot, cost us Karlos Dansby, and countless other things that I don't have the time to list because I am trying to stop talking and putting energy into anything DWaste related cause he has already wasted everyone's time.

Horrible.

But as you state, only thing that can be done is move forward.

I agree, time to move on without this guy. Maybe Minter will really embrace the opportunity.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Barnett listed as a OLB in 2012 so he would be making the move inside as well. Sims looks like the best of the current possibilities---if he fits Bowles scheme and type of player. Cards need to make a move fast since the Cowpies are also in the market for a LB.

While we can look for a solution in bringing in a player, another possibilty is for the coaches to scheme based on our current talent. We have a better idea going into this year how to manipulate our D game plan based on talent available. We have two OLB returning from injury, a new SS who can play close in the box. We have lots of talent with our CBs---need to get Bethel and his speed/instincts on the field more and perhaps blitz to cover up any deficiency with the pass coverage out of the ILB position. We have Okafor at pass rushing DE returning from a bicep injury (making him a second-year rookie). Foote was a pretty good ILB in 2012 before his injury and brings veteran knowledge/presence. Also, we are not giving Minter enough credit as to improving his pass coverage skills after a year in the system---Minter was a run-stopper and thumper---that alone will give receivers pause before try to run across the middle of the D.

DW was a superior player at a position that is not as vital as some of the other positions on the field. CC is an elite player on our D and is underrated for the work he does---our DL effort on the front is what makes our ILB look so good. Any LBer playing behind CC is going to look good. See Dansby's numbers for last year. If our DL does their part, a replacement ILB will be putting up the numbers. If our coaching staff can cover for the lack of a LT via scheme and play calling---I expect the same success covering for an absent ILB in a 3-4 scheme.

Nick Barnett has played ILB in a 3-4 for a good amount of his career. He would not have any transitional problems. The problems would be how slow he is now, and how injury prone he is now. Not saying not to bring him in, I personally would.

As for what is here, and available ? Talent is talent. If the Levi Brown/D'Anthony Batiste situation taught me anything, you can't just throw anyone in there and expect them to get the job done.

Kenny Demens, Lorenzo Alexander, and Larry Foote are not going to be close to what Washington and/or Dansby brought to this team. That is just the fact of the matter.

Yet, it is what it is. The team will move forward and make the best out of it. Like you state an injury could have easily put this organization in the same situation.

The Cardinals will deal with the situation but the defense is much weaker than last year. ILBer may not be as glamorous as it used to be, but it takes a special athlete that can play the position well. You need speed to cover, and strength to take on 300+ lbs men. That is rare.

Regardless of the anger caused by the situation, it should be interesting how this plays out.

As for a solution ?

I believe the Cardinals will sign a vet for camp, and by the end of preseason they may have some situations where they have an abundance of talent at a position and be in a position to make a deal. Even then there are not too many players that I would even trade for right now since it would have to work for both sides.

Its a bad situation no matter how much sugar is put on top.

 

[outcent13]

The most comforting part of this whole situation is believing that whoever they find to play the position Todd Bowles will put them in a position to make plays and have success. Without knowing a whole lot in regards to injuries and expected return dates(or even scheme fits) I would like to see someone like Desmond Bishop . Somewhat similar situation to dansby in that he left a team after two productive seasons for a free agent deal. Didn't work out and now would be likely to sign for the veteran minimum to show he can still get after it. At 29 he's not that old either.

 

[Finito]

While you are right about Washington not being all in and therefore his negative presence is best removed, the reality is you didn't offer any realistic, viable solution to fill the void he leaves behind. Dansby had a great season last year due in very large part because he had Washington at his side for most of the season! Now we lose not one, but BOTH! And, because the team thought Washington would be here, we made no draft picks and no meaningful FA moves to address the ILB position.
This is a HUGE problem. We will have zero hope of covering a TE this season. If I were an opposing team, I would run two friggin TE sets all game long! Add to this mess a rookie SS who, according to reports has a TON to learn in pass coverage, I really believe our offense is going to have to out up 30 points per game just to keep us close...


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Oh stop hell we had zero hope of covering tight ends last year with Washington and Dansby here that's not new. Our line is still great and our secondary is much improved but now we got to score 30 just to keep in close? The sky isn't falling

 

[GuernseyCard]

We have our stop gap in Foote and, perhaps, can add another like Sims.

However, when it comes to a longer term replacement for D-weed, that will cost a draft pick, whether Housler or anyone else from the roster is thrown in.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I expect BASK and our players and coaches to do all of that as well. And I expect opposing TE's to roll us like never before...
Doesn't mean we won't win games... Just means that our chances for post season success are greatly diminished. It means we will now need to rely upon guys more than we should. We will need more points from our offense than we might have needed had Washington not been a selfish moron...



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I can't recall stellar play by D-weed and Karlos against T-ends last season.

 

[GimmedaBall]

I don't want to diminish the loss of DW. But he is gone. Because he is no longer a part of the team, the focus needs to be on moving forward. Let's not elevate DW to some superhero status---a Miami Dolphin cut Dansby signed on last year and outplayed our now departed DW. Too bad we had to say good-bye to Dansby based on his salary demands. But he is no longer part of the team either. These players are no longer on the roster---get over it.

Agree that at this point in time, our D appears weaker than last year across the middle. I think we have added to other parts of the D with Cro, injured players at OLB and DE who are returning, and the draft with rotational depth along the line. We will have JA on the field as a pass rusher from the beginning of the year. The concern about TE's is overstated---if replacement ILB's can't run with a TE in the short-middle of the field, they shouldn't be in the league let alone be in the starting lineup. We had plenty of problems with TE's even with Dansby and DW in the lineup. Most of our TE problem last year were with the SS not being able to cover at the back of the D/endzone.

It also appears that our O is improved over last season. I fully expect to see more points going up. This will compensate for the D. That is the reality of every team going from year-to-year. Players come and go for a variety of reasons---we lost our ILB's due to money demands and drug abuse. It's a done deal. Move on with solutions.

 

[WildBB]

How many players on Seattle and Denver have gotten poped for mary-jane?

Are they being tested in the off-season? You know it's got to be prevelant in those environments.

My take on DWash is he obviously put the Cardinals in a bad spot here.

He is the type of impact player you hate to just say hasta to though.

Zero tolerence from this point out. And he needs to stay connected and involved whatever way possible.

I think he still has a good 5 yr. run left IF he will stay committed. That's a big IF.

It will be up to Keim and Arians to figure out in what direction he is willing to straighten himself out.

From what he said "we are held to a higher standard" is a good start. They can build on that hopefully.

He ows a lot (more) to this franchise and community from here on out. I hope he can make good.

 

[Mitch]

While you are right about Washington not being all in and therefore his negative presence is best removed, the reality is you didn't offer any realistic, viable solution to fill the void he leaves behind. Dansby had a great season last year due in very large part because he had Washington at his side for most of the season! Now we lose not one, but BOTH! And, because the team thought Washington would be here, we made no draft picks and no meaningful FA moves to address the ILB position.
This is a HUGE problem. We will have zero hope of covering a TE this season. If I were an opposing team, I would run two friggin TE sets all game long! Add to this mess a rookie SS who, according to reports has a TON to learn in pass coverage, I really believe our offense is going to have to out up 30 points per game just to keep us close...


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First of all, I understand your frustration, 82, however---Steve Keim is the guy who will have the viable answers---and you just know, I think we all do---that Keim isn't going to sit pat---these are not the old Cardinals.

I did offer one possible trade scenario. I bet Keim will do even better than that trade. I also bet that we are going to be pleasantly surprised by the production we get at the ILB position---which speaks, as i said in the post, to how well our ILBers are positioned for success playing behind such a formidable defensive front in such an attacking scheme.

Finally, and this may actually surprise some, one of the major reasons why the Cardinals signed Cromartie was for him to cover TEs. Patrick Peterson will be assigned at times to TEs as well. One of the major reasons why the team drafted Deone Bucannon was that he has the size, strength and speed to cover TEs. He will need to be taught and groomed for that because he wasn't asked to cover TEs practically at all at WSU. Maybe he will show promise in that aspect of his role sooner rather than later. Todd Bowles won't be counting on the ILBs to cover TEs...only to cover the seams when they go zone and/or zone-man combos. At ILB they don't even line up across from the TE.

 

[GuernseyCard]

How many players on Seattle and Denver have gotten poped for mary-jane?

Are they being tested in the off-season? You know it's got to be prevelant in those environments.

My take on DWash is he obviously put the Cardinals in a bad spot here.

He is the type of impact player you hate to just say hasta to though.

Zero tolerence from this point out. And he needs to stay connected and involved whatever way possible.

I think he still has a good 5 yr. run left IF he will stay committed. That's a big IF.

It will be up to Keim and Arians to figure out in what direction he is willing to straighten himself out.

From what he said "we are held to a higher standard" is a good start. They can build on that hopefully.

He ows a lot (more) to this franchise and community from here on out. I hope he can make good.

I doubt very much that D-weed is part of the BASK plan going forward.

He simply can't be trusted.

 

[WildBB]

I doubt very much that D-weed is part of the BASK plan going forward.

He simply can't be trusted.

Then about half the league shouldn't be.

Should an owner who has much greater accountability be trusted?

 

[GuernseyCard]

Then about half the league shouldn't be.

Whatever...

Point is that he's a three time loser on the drug front and facing further suspension on the assault charge.

BASK and Mike Bidwill took a gamble on him and he burned them.

Doubt they're in a forgiving mood after having been treated as chumps.

 

[WildBB]

Whatever...

Point is that he's a three time loser on the drug front and facing further suspension on the assault charge.

BASK and Mike Bidwill took a gamble on him and he burned them.

Doubt they're in a forgiving mood after having been treated as chumps.

He has a lot of growing up to do for sure. Most of us did, but we weren't in the limelight.

For someone who needs to be tested 10 times a year to continue in the league and on the team, MAYBE just a bit more support was needed. Maybe I'm a bit off here....but THEY put their 10M trust in him. Shouldn't that be backed up in a more substantial and consistent way? I'm not saying I have all the answers....but their should be questions aimed at both sides.

 

[GuernseyCard]

He has a lot of growing up to do for sure. Most of us did, but we weren't in the limelight.

For someone who needs to be tested 10 times a year to continue in the league and on the team, MAYBE just a bit more support was needed. Maybe I'm a bit off here....but THEY put their 10M trust in him. Shouldn't that be backed up in a more substantial and consistent way? I'm not saying I have all the answers....but their should be questions aimed at both sides.

He was already under the League's testing program.

What were they to do? Hire a 24 hr babysitting service.

He said that he was clean, problems in the past. They believed him. He lied.

 

[82CardsGrad]

First of all, I understand your frustration, 82, however---Steve Keim is the guy who will have the viable answers---and you just know, I think we all do---that Keim isn't going to sit pat---these are not the old Cardinals.

I did offer one possible trade scenario. I bet Keim will do even better than that trade. I also bet that we are going to be pleasantly surprised by the production we get at the ILB position---which speaks, as i said in the post, to how well our ILBers are positioned for success playing behind such a formidable defensive front in such an attacking scheme.

Finally, and this may actually surprise some, one of the major reasons why the Cardinals signed Cromartie was for him to cover TEs. Patrick Peterson will be assigned at times to TEs as well. One of the major reasons why the team drafted Deone Bucannon was that he has the size, strength and speed to cover TEs. He will need to be taught and groomed for that because he wasn't asked to cover TEs practically at all at WSU. Maybe he will show promise in that aspect of his role sooner rather than later. Todd Bowles won't be counting on the ILBs to cover TEs...only to cover the seams when they go zone and/or zone-man combos. At ILB they don't even line up across from the TE.

Hope you're right Mitch... I have nothing but trust and respect for Keim. As well as Bowles...
Gonna take quite a circus act to create a system/scheme that can adequately deal with the opposing TE... We'll see...


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