Murray's agent apparently broke off contact talks?

[PJ1]

Would be great to see him throw the ball out of bounds rather than take a 3-4 yard loss. But hey, he’s only been in the league for 3 years… give him time.

Two minute drill needs some work too…lol

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I see where you got confused, Krango. This says nothing about quotes or him speaking to the media. So, you weren't being purposefully obtuse. I'll give you a pass and say you weren't trying to move the goal posts, just misunderstanding. Happens on a message board.

He's played the "I'm taking my ball and going home" social media game, allowed (perhaps directing), his agent to be a jackass on his behalf, okayed (or at least didn't disavow) the ALL CAPS statement, and has threatened to hold out if he's not the first 3-year QB in history to get a deal this early. I'd say that's all petty and demanding.

Every player is 100% responsible for the actions/words of their agent unless they publicly disavow them or fire them. The agent is literally hired to be their client’s mouthpiece. So if you have a problem with his agent, you should also have a problem with kyler.

 

[Russ Smith]

as for what's going on now. PFT pointed out something I know someone here said can't remember who, maybe Chris Sanders(?) the way Kyler's deal is set up he gets 5.5 this year but just under 4.5 of that is a roster bonus that he only gets if he's in camp on day 3. If hes' not in camp holding out that money is gone, forever.

They are reporting the Cards told him we will take care of you this summer. Last year camp opened late july, that's summer. So the Cards are essentially saying you wait and we'll get back to you knowing he has a deadline of sometime in late July or early August where if he's not in camp he loses 4.5 million.

So the obvious reason why he's asking to get this done now is he doesn't want to have to negotiate against a clock of day 3 of camp.

Everybody I watched today had the same answer, this will get done and the reason it will is there is no situation out there that guarantees the Cards come out of this in good shape by trading Murray. There's no obvious trade.

PFT thinks the Cards thought signing Kingsbury would buy them time with Kyler, that if they hadn't extended or had fired Kliff, Murray would have demanded a trade(same agent). So they think the Cards extended Kliff and just assumed ok the agent will be happy to wait now and they didn't bother to respond to the agents letter. No idea if true.

 

[kerouac9]

PFT thinks the Cards thought signing Kingsbury would buy them time with Kyler, that if they hadn't extended or had fired Kliff, Murray would have demanded a trade(same agent). So they think the Cards extended Kliff and just assumed ok the agent will be happy to wait now and they didn't bother to respond to the agents letter.

If true Michael and Steve are even more stupid than I thought.

 

[cardsfanmd]

He's tantalizing, but his personality leaves things to be desired. I'm going to have to chill on accepting whether or not he has arrived or failed, but I can honestly say that I don't see a leader in him now, and I don't see a coaching staff that will challenge him.

100%

 

[Russ Smith]

If true Michael and Steve are even more stupid than I thought.

Florio was the one who said that and Peter King didn't know about the roster bonus but after hearing it said that obviously explains why they are asking for the extension now. He signed the deal he was offered that's how rookie contracts work. Now he wants a new deal they're asking him to wait until weeks before the roster bonus comes up and just trust them to take care of him.

The Kliff thing if true would be crazy, you don't extend a coach because you think if you don't the player will demand a trade. I hope Florio is wrong on that one

 

[Cheesebeef]

as for what's going on now. PFT pointed out something I know someone here said can't remember who, maybe Chris Sanders(?) the way Kyler's deal is set up he gets 5.5 this year but just under 4.5 of that is a roster bonus that he only gets if he's in camp on day 3. If hes' not in camp holding out that money is gone, forever.

They are reporting the Cards told him we will take care of you this summer. Last year camp opened late july, that's summer. So the Cards are essentially saying you wait and we'll get back to you knowing he has a deadline of sometime in late July or early August where if he's not in camp he loses 4.5 million.

So the obvious reason why he's asking to get this done now is he doesn't want to have to negotiate against a clock of day 3 of camp.

Everybody I watched today had the same answer, this will get done and the reason it will is there is no situation out there that guarantees the Cards come out of this in good shape by trading Murray. There's no obvious trade.

PFT thinks the Cards thought signing Kingsbury would buy them time with Kyler, that if they hadn't extended or had fired Kliff, Murray would have demanded a trade(same agent). So they think the Cards extended Kliff and just assumed ok the agent will be happy to wait now and they didn't bother to respond to the agents letter. No idea if true.

This sounds idiotic, even for the Cardinals.

Which means it’s probably true.

 

[oaken1]

If all that were true....

It makes more sense for kyler to wait.

A new deal negates the old deal, so if he gets a new deal before camp he doesn't get the 4mil...

However, new deals also come with signing bonuses...

Makes way more sense for Murray to collect his roster bonus, then get a new deal and collect a fat signing bonus.

He gets a new deal before camp he doesn't get both

 

[Russ Smith]

If all that were true....

It makes more sense for kyler to wait.

A new deal negates the old deal, so if he gets a new deal before camp he doesn't get the 4mil...

However, new deals also come with signing bonuses...

Makes way more sense for Murray to collect his roster bonus, then get a new deal and collect a fat signing bonus.

He gets a new deal before camp he doesn't get both

The point that Florio was making is if you look at the NFL owners perhaps only the Browns have a worse reputation than the Cards(and now Snyder I guess) for dealing with money. If you're a player and the Cardinals tell you trust us we'll take care of you in the summer knowing your bonus is due when it is, you might not be inclined to trust them.

His point was if you're Murray and you're not convinced the Cards are going to be easy to negotiate with, and they usually aren't, you want to start early so that deadline doesn't come into play. Florio doesn't think he has any intention of holding out but says I get why Pelliserro said that, the timing is such if he waits it's a big leap of faith for an organization that often in the past dragged their feet on contracts.

I think we all expect he'll end up staying with us but Florio was pretty clear he said if there's a team in the NFL that is going to say sorry we're not giving you that deal you have a contract, and we're not trading you, deal with it, it's the Cardinals. I don't think they will but his point was by saying wait until summer they're cutting the negotiating very close. Blaming the agent for pulling the contract demand is wrong because as was said here, the new QB deals changed the market.

 

[SoonerLou]

The point that Florio was making is if you look at the NFL owners perhaps only the Browns have a worse reputation than the Cards(and now Snyder I guess) for dealing with money. If you're a player and the Cardinals tell you trust us we'll take care of you in the summer knowing your bonus is due when it is, you might not be inclined to trust them.

His point was if you're Murray and you're not convinced the Cards are going to be easy to negotiate with, and they usually aren't, you want to start early so that deadline doesn't come into play. Florio doesn't think he has any intention of holding out but says I get why Pelliserro said that, the timing is such if he waits it's a big leap of faith for an organization that often in the past dragged their feet on contracts.

I think we all expect he'll end up staying with us but Florio was pretty clear he said if there's a team in the NFL that is going to say sorry we're not giving you that deal you have a contract, and we're not trading you, deal with it, it's the Cardinals. I don't think they will but his point was by saying wait until summer they're cutting the negotiating very close. Blaming the agent for pulling the contract demand is wrong because as was said here, the new QB deals changed the market.

He also brought up the point that the Cardinals should let Kyler do a Tyreke HIll and seek out a contract. Because unlike Hill its possible he wont get it and it would benefit the Cardinals. Some teams are going to be out simply because they don't want a QB his size. Although as the other guy said all it takes is one team.

 

[Stout]

Every player is 100% responsible for the actions/words of their agent unless they publicly disavow them or fire them. The agent is literally hired to be their client’s mouthpiece. So if you have a problem with his agent, you should also have a problem with kyler.

Exactly. @Krangodnzr Ouchie answered before I could.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Every player is 100% responsible for the actions/words of their agent unless they publicly disavow them or fire them. The agent is literally hired to be their client’s mouthpiece. So if you have a problem with his agent, you should also have a problem with kyler.

His agent is only seeking the best deal possible. I have no issue with that and don't see anything wrong with what he has done.

 

[Stout]

His agent is only seeking the best deal possible. I have no issue with that and don't see anything wrong with what he has done.

All well and good, but if you're going to send out your agent to pull the shenanigans--or at least tacitly approve them--you have to take the fan blowback. Part and parcel of the process.

 

[PJ1]

All well and good, but if you're going to send out your agent to pull the shenanigans--or at least tacitly approve them--you have to take the fan blowback. Part and parcel of the process.

You got it. The same people that think this is ok rip the team for their negotiation posturing. You put it out there you own it.

 

[tnmike]

I grew up a Cards baseball fan too, Templeton was my favorite player he was in a sense the Terry Metcalf of Cards baseball, great player who in his prime essentially left because of contracts and fans. Metcalf wanted more money and was tired of being booed for fumbles, Templeton wanted more contract stability and was tired of being booed for errors. You'll recall the infamous flipping off the fans is essentially what got him traded.

I hope it doesn't turn out like those 2 did with Murray.

Tempelton left because he flipped off the fans at a game and Whitey Herzog traded his butt for Ozzie Smith. It was a different time and management didn't put up with his BS

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

All well and good, but if you're going to send out your agent to pull the shenanigans--or at least tacitly approve them--you have to take the fan blowback. Part and parcel of the process.

Agreed

 

[Russ Smith]

Tempelton left because he flipped off the fans at a game and Whitey Herzog traded his butt for Ozzie Smith. It was a different time and management didn't put up with his BS

Like I said infamous flipping off incident. I met Garry many years ago when he was on the Padres. I was in an airport waiting and noticed him, he was surprised I recognized him I told him I was a huge fan. I asked him about the incident he told me he'd been playing with a knee injury for weeks, he wanted a new contract because he was concerned playing all those games on that hard red hot turf was going to cut his career short and the knee was the first sign. 1981 he hit a ground ball, didn't run it out was thrown out the fans booed him he snapped and flipped them off. The Cards didn't trade him until the next year ironically because Ozzie Smith, not Templeton, was demanding a big new contract and the Padres balked at it. took 2 months they finally worked out a deal, Cards got Ozzie in the deal, he got got his new contract, Templeton got a new deal and got off turf which extended his career(played until 35 I think). he was never the same player he had knee surgery in 1983 on the same knee same injury he'd been playing with on the Cards when the flipping off incident happened.

He was a kid and immature, and obviously Ozzie worked out for the Cards HOF career great guy.

But Templeton got traded because he wanted a contract that protected him because he knew the turf was taking a toll on his knees, and less than 2 years later he had knee surgery, he was right.

The irony of all that was Templeton was the bad guy in the whole thing but you ended up not long after having Lonnie Smith, Keith Hernandez and a few others all involved in the Pittsburgh drug trial and suddenly Templeton didn't seem like such a bad guy by comparison.

 

[Brak]

I can't recall a QB with so much talent ever being so far below the level of fan love he should be. Even the fans that support him would normally support him more. And there probably isn;t a QB in the league that has so many fans disgruntled with him. Truly astounding PR snafu.

I want him GONE. My perspective..

I was a skeptic when he was drafted. But he quickly won me over. Much better passer than I expected him to be, absolutely electric, a true game changer. But his #1 problem IMHO is he's a loner and a sulker. When a game is going bad, he's not huddling with teammates looking at film & stills, he's over on the bench, by himself, sulking. That is NOT a leader, not even remotely close. The social media crap after the season this year. The incredible flame-out to end the season, culminating with the blowout loss to the Rams. Kyler took ZERO responsibilty and said nothing positive afterwards. His attention quickly shifted to getting paid.

The QB position *requires* a leader. I think back to the Joe Montana days. THAT man was a leader on the field. If a receiver dropped a key pass, Joe didn't chew him out, he offered words of support and got the ball RIGHT back to him to rebuild his confidence and put the drop behind him.

Kyler has all the talent in the world, but doesn't have the head to be a winner in the NFL. Time to move on while they can get something for him, and before they make a massive financial commitment that they'll regret sooner than later.

 

[PJ1]

Tempelton left because he flipped off the fans at a game and Whitey Herzog traded his butt for Ozzie Smith. It was a different time and management didn't put up with his BS

Yup. Herzog dragged him into the dugout after he flipped off the fans. Herzog traded him for Templeton because that is what he wanted to do. Templeton didn’t force anything. One of the best trades ever for the Cardinals.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yup. Herzog dragged him into the dugout after he flipped off the fans. Herzog traded him for Templeton because that is what he wanted to do. Templeton didn’t force anything. One of the best trades ever for the Cardinals.

Just to be clear I never said Templeton asked to be traded I said his contract and the flipping off incident got him traded. Ozzie was the one that forced that trade because the Padres wouldn't pay him what he wanted.

And it was a great trade for the Cards I agree. But what started the whole thing was the Cards insisting Templeton was fine to keep playing on a knee that was bugging him and Templeton wanting to be protected with a new deal. Here's an excerpt from an old article on it.

--------------------

Templeton was being paid more than any player in Cardinals history. But during the 1981 season, he hadn’t been playing well. In late August, he went to team physicians.

"And the Cardinal doctors told me that I had torn cartilage in my knee, and I had sprained some ligaments in my ankle," Templeton says.

The Cardinals were leading their division and battling with the Dodgers for the best overall record in the National League when Templeton and team doctors brought the extent of his injuries to the attention of Cardinals manager Whitey Herzog.

"And Whitey told me, 'Look, we're gonna need you down the stretch. So I don't want you hurting yourself. So if you hit a routine ball and you know you’re out, just take your time getting down to first base. Because I don't want you hurting yourself.' "

----------

Whitey admitted that later they told Templeton he had to play but that he shouldn't run out grounders if he didn't need to because of the injury. So he did that, and got booed they called him the N word and a bunch of other stuff. They were throwing ice at him as he was in the dugout. He flipped them off and later did the crotch grab and got tossed by the umpire. The fans were literally challenging him to come into the stands and fight them ball boys and teammates confirmed it. But the Cards blamed templeton for the whole thing.

Card Collector Revisits Racist Incident Behind Garry Templeton's 1981 Suspension

Brad Balukjian wanted to meet all the players from one 1986 pack of baseball cards. One had a story that needed retelling.

www.wbur.org

If you read that whole story and don't come away seeing Garry's side of it I don't know what to say. Herzog did CYA on that he never really admitted until years later that templeton was telling the truth and even implied Garry had drug problems which was never proven. They literally put him in a mental hospital for 2 weeks for evaluation and Tempy said all he did was play ping pong.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1982/05/20/garry-templeton/ec783f7a-7f4a-43c5-93af-a3db57536ddb/

That's why I used him as an example of how I hope things don't go with Murray. Different franchise but I've seen some very bad things happen when a young player get into a situation and the team doesn't back him. I really hope that's not what happens with Murray.

 

[PJ1]

Just to be clear I never said Templeton asked to be traded I said his contract and the flipping off incident got him traded. Ozzie was the one that forced that trade because the Padres wouldn't pay him what he wanted.

And it was a great trade for the Cards I agree. But what started the whole thing was the Cards insisting Templeton was fine to keep playing on a knee that was bugging him and Templeton wanting to be protected with a new deal. Here's an excerpt from an old article on it.

--------------------

Templeton was being paid more than any player in Cardinals history. But during the 1981 season, he hadn’t been playing well. In late August, he went to team physicians.

"And the Cardinal doctors told me that I had torn cartilage in my knee, and I had sprained some ligaments in my ankle," Templeton says.

The Cardinals were leading their division and battling with the Dodgers for the best overall record in the National League when Templeton and team doctors brought the extent of his injuries to the attention of Cardinals manager Whitey Herzog.

"And Whitey told me, 'Look, we're gonna need you down the stretch. So I don't want you hurting yourself. So if you hit a routine ball and you know you’re out, just take your time getting down to first base. Because I don't want you hurting yourself.' "

----------

Whitey admitted that later they told Templeton he had to play but that he shouldn't run out grounders if he didn't need to because of the injury. So he did that, and got booed they called him the N word and a bunch of other stuff. They were throwing ice at him as he was in the dugout. He flipped them off and later did the crotch grab and got tossed by the umpire. The fans were literally challenging him to come into the stands and fight them ball boys and teammates confirmed it. But the Cards blamed templeton for the whole thing.

Card Collector Revisits Racist Incident Behind Garry Templeton's 1981 Suspension

Brad Balukjian wanted to meet all the players from one 1986 pack of baseball cards. One had a story that needed retelling.

www.wbur.org

If you read that whole story and don't come away seeing Garry's side of it I don't know what to say. Herzog did CYA on that he never really admitted until years later that templeton was telling the truth and even implied Garry had drug problems which was never proven. They literally put him in a mental hospital for 2 weeks for evaluation and Tempy said all he did was play ping pong.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1982/05/20/garry-templeton/ec783f7a-7f4a-43c5-93af-a3db57536ddb/

That's why I used him as an example of how I hope things don't go with Murray. Different franchise but I've seen some very bad things happen when a young player get into a situation and the team doesn't back him. I really hope that's not what happens with Murray.

Just to be clear Herzog had to pull him into the dugout as he kept up his crap all the way back to the dugout. Players got between the two. Cardinal fans are known by anyone who has played there as some of the best fans anywhere. I live in St. Louis again after living there for 17 years earlier and a few as kid. What Templeton did was criticized by opposing manager Frank Robinson as one of the worst things he has seen and said their is no room for it in baseball. Gene Tenace who was on the Cardinals at the time said he was done with him. You don’t behave like that when fans boo you. Ozzie Smith is one of the most popular athletes ever in St Louis and the last I checked he is black so painting Cardinal fans with a racist brush is also nonsense.

 

[Russ Smith]

Just to be clear Herzog had to pull him into the dugout as he kept up his crap all the way back to the dugout. Players got between the two. Cardinal fans are known by anyone who has played there as some of the best fans anywhere. I live in St. Louis again after living there for 17 years earlier and a few as kid. What Templeton did was criticized by opposing manager Frank Robinson as one of the worst things he has seen and said their is no room for it in baseball. Gene Tenace who was on the Cardinals at the time said he was done with him. You don’t behave like that when fans boo you. Ozzie Smith is one of the most popular athletes ever in St Louis and the last I checked he is black so painting Cardinal fans with a racist brush is also nonsense.

I get that Templeton went too far but again his teammates the ball boys everyone in the dugout admitted they heard fans screaming the N word at Templeton. They were throwing ice at him and challenging him to come out of the dugout and fight them, during the game. Templeton went way too far but to suggest there wasn't racism involved when multiple fans were calling him the N word is nonsense. Nobody is saying ALL the Cards fans were racist in fact if you read the articles I linked even Garry said that's not the case. But there were multiple fans close to the dugout that were calling him the N word and throwing ice and stuff at him.

Per the NY Times he actually struck out but the 3rd strike was dropped, he didn't run to first, the fans behind the dugout were screaming at him and he flipped them off, they continued. 2 innings later he was in the on deck circle when the fans were on him again and he did the crotch grab got tossed and then Herzog grabbed him at the top of the steps and pulled him into the dugout. If you read the news stories it was game delayed by rain, there was just over 7000 people there and per even Herzog "many of the fans were drunk they'd been drinking the whole rain delay it was not a good scene."

I don't defend what Garry did but it was absolutely triggered by a bunch of drunk fans calling him the N word, multiple teammates backed that up as did the 2 ballboys who were there.

I had forgotten he actually did ask to be traded to teh Padres because he knew Ozzie wanted out over his contract. Templeton had a house in So Cal and said trade me to SD for Ozzie. He was a very emotional guy but he was also right, they had him playing with torn cartilage in his knee, that's why he said he needed days off after night games he didn't want to be playing in the heat of teh summer on the turf at that stadium with a bad knee.

I was born in Missouri I was a Cards fan my entire life until the mid 90's when that strike just put me off baseball entirely.

 

[PJ1]

I get that Templeton went too far but again his teammates the ball boys everyone in the dugout admitted they heard fans screaming the N word at Templeton. They were throwing ice at him and challenging him to come out of the dugout and fight them, during the game. Templeton went way too far but to suggest there wasn't racism involved when multiple fans were calling him the N word is nonsense. Nobody is saying ALL the Cards fans were racist in fact if you read the articles I linked even Garry said that's not the case. But there were multiple fans close to the dugout that were calling him the N word and throwing ice and stuff at him.

Per the NY Times he actually struck out but the 3rd strike was dropped, he didn't run to first, the fans behind the dugout were screaming at him and he flipped them off, they continued. 2 innings later he was in the on deck circle when the fans were on him again and he did the crotch grab got tossed and then Herzog grabbed him at the top of the steps and pulled him into the dugout. If you read the news stories it was game delayed by rain, there was just over 7000 people there and per even Herzog "many of the fans were drunk they'd been drinking the whole rain delay it was not a good scene."

I don't defend what Garry did but it was absolutely triggered by a bunch of drunk fans calling him the N word, multiple teammates backed that up as did the 2 ballboys who were there.

I had forgotten he actually did ask to be traded to teh Padres because he knew Ozzie wanted out over his contract. Templeton had a house in So Cal and said trade me to SD for Ozzie. He was a very emotional guy but he was also right, they had him playing with torn cartilage in his knee, that's why he said he needed days off after night games he didn't want to be playing in the heat of teh summer on the turf at that stadium with a bad knee.

I was born in Missouri I was a Cards fan my entire life until the mid 90's when that strike just put me off baseball entirely.

You are wrong. Herzog said he didn’t blame the fans for booing him and he had been a problem the entire season. He was by the pitching mound when he started his crap. The umpire warned him between innings and he continued anyway and got tossed. Templeton himself said about 7 people were yelling a him and challenging him. He either ignores it or calls an usher down to have them removed if they were calling him the n word. I have been going to Cardinal games since 1967 and have never heard anything racist yelled at a player. Could 7 people have done this. Of course but he screwed up and did nothing but hurt himself. You also are saying the Cardinals forced him to play injured which is also not true. He was traded because Herzog said the fans would never forgive him. It was the one trade from the rebuild Herzog didn’t want to make because he thought Templeton was the most talented player he had ever seen. They actually got along well for the most part.

 

[cardncubfan]

 

[PJ1]

Sorry.