MY summer plan

elindholm

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Let's go with the optimistic scenario in which Charlotte takes White for a bribe of $3 million cash and the Cavaliers' future pick, putting the Suns far enough under the cap so that they can offer Bryant a max or near-max contract, which Bryant improbably accepts.

Then let's be less than optimistic and say that the Suns don't win the draft lottery, winding up instead with, oh, the #5 pick.

Now the team is

C - Voskuhl/Lampe
PF - Stoudemire/#5 pick/Lampe
SF - Marion/Johnson/Cabarkapa
SG - Bryant/Johnson
PG - Barbosa/Eisley

with no money to sign Vujanic.

I think we'd have to agree that that team has some problems. I propose the following trade with Cleveland. For the sake of argument, we'll say Cleveland winds up in the middle of the lottery (which is very likely), maybe at #9:

Phoenix gets
Zydrunas Ilgauskas ($14.6 million, 2005)
Kedrick Brown ($2.3, 2005 RFA)
#9 pick (~$1.8, 2008)

Total salary coming over from CLE to PHX: $18.7 million

Cleveland gets
Shawn Marion ($11.3, 2009)
Howard Eisley ($6.4, 2006)
#5 pick (~$2.6, 2008)

Total salary coming over from PHX to CLE: $20.3 million

The swap of draft picks frees up money ($1.6 million by this estimate) to sign Vujanic. That amount should be enough if the contract has extra incentives in terms of lengths or opt-outs.

Phoenix makes the trade not only to get Vujanic and get out from Eisley's contract, but to see how good they can be with a real center. Cleveland makes the trade because Ilgauskas is clearly not part of their future, and Marion gives them a bona fide All-Star to run with James and Boozer.

Now Phoenix looks like this:

C - Ilgauskas/Voskuhl/Lampe
PF - Stoudemire/#9 pick/Lampe
SF - Johnson/Cabarkapa/Brown
SG - Bryant/Vujanic/Johnson
PG - Barbosa/Johnson/Vujanic

That's a formidable team right there.
 

slinslin

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I wouldn't trade Marion for Ilgauskas and swap picks.

The only reason to do that would be that I would clear Ilgauskas contract in 2005 when it expires and go after TMac.

But in that case I would probably prefer to move the draft pick with Eisley and keep my pockets as tight as possible because it could come very close to sign TMac to the max without giving up Marion since Jacobsen and Johnson will also be off the cap that should be very very close to sign TMac.

Moving Eisley, White and the draftpick should leave Phoenix with 26M$ this offseason. 14 would be used to sign Kobe. 1 for Vujanic.
In 2005 Joe Johnson and Casey Jacobsen would come off the books which should get us in a position to offer TMac the max.

If your plan isn't to go after TMac I understand the Ilgauskas trade even less. Because trading Eisley and the top pick for capspace would almost certainly be possible and put Phoenix in a position to sign Dampier who is better than Ilgauskas and other FAs as Phoenix would be ~26M$ under the cap without the pick, White and Eisley.
 
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slinslin

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This season? Most definately.

And he doesn't have the history of injury problems and wouldn't make as much money.

Ilgauskas 14/8 in the East 47%FG got benched on the Cavs for his poor defense.

Dampier 11.6/11.6 53%FG in the West.



Ilgauskas wouldn't fit in with the Suns, he can't play in a high paced game I think.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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LOL, I completely left Jacobsen out of my discussion. Freudian slip.

Ilgauskas would have only one year left on his contract, which all but negates the injury concerns. I would much, much rather trade for him than risk a multi-year deal on Dampier.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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Moving Eisley, White and the draftpick should leave Phoenix

I just don't think your scenarios for moving Eisley and White are realistic. Most of the time, to get something you want, you have to give up something. Your trade proposals are always very lopsided in favor of the Suns.
 

slinslin

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Eisley and a top5 pick to a team with capspace is lopsided in favor of the suns?!?!
They could probably get a very decent player with expiring contract for Eisley and a top5 pick as well as a later first round pick for future first round pick that could be used to pay off San Antonio.
 

Joe Mama

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Dampier is better defensively, and Illgauskus is better offensively. Each one of them is better than anything the Phoenix Suns currently have on the other end as well. As far as injuries go the difference is negligible. Neither one of them have shown over their careers that they are particularly healthy players.

Joe Mama
 

F-Dog

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I still think that Joe Johnson is the guy you have to get rid of if you get Kobe. Unlike Marion, Johnson's effectiveness seems to be in direct proportion to the number of touches he gets.



Ilgauskas doesn't do much for me, either; I haven't seen much of an outside game from him, he doesn't stack up very well against the dominant centers, and he's in decline. That part of your plan looks like another variation of "Marion for expiring contracts" to me.

In any case, I doubt that Cleveland is going to take Howard Eisley to move up four spots in this draft, where there are no sure things beyond #2.
 

fordronken

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My problem is that I'm not sure Marion would be a good fit in Cleveland. They don't need another athletic swing man. It seems like they need more shooters and a low post presence than anything else.
 

George O'Brien

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Almost any set of deals that gets Kobe and an upgrade at center which does not lose Amare and JJ is probably going to make the team more competative in the short run. My biggest objection to most deals is that it leaves the team with Voskuhl and small ball at center.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of Illgauskus. His skills are almost entirely on offense and some on rebounding. That is not where the Suns biggest problems at center are. I'm guessing that if all the Suns needed at center was more offense, Lampe would be starting.

At the same time, I am not convinced Dampier would be a good fit either even though he is closer that Illgauskus. At heart, he is mostly a taller version of White but much more expensive.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by George O'Brien

I'm guessing that if all the Suns needed at center was more offense, Lampe would be starting.

That's an awfully bad guess. Lampe apparently isn't fit to be a reserve, yet you think the only reason he's not starting is because we don't want an offensive center? :D
 

slinslin

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Originally posted by F-Dog
I still think that Joe Johnson is the guy you have to get rid of if you get Kobe. Unlike Marion, Johnson's effectiveness seems to be in direct proportion to the number of touches he gets.

On the other hand, Joe Johnson is much closer to Scottie Pippen than Shawn Marion.

Actually I think that Kobe/TMac would work out. Neither is as good as MJ at least right now or it is tough to compare. Pippen was very underrated in MJ's shadow and if Kobe and TMac are better than Pippen it isn't that much of a difference in Pippen's prime.

There are enough shots on the Mavs for Walker, Nowitzki, Nash, Finley and Jamison. And on the Lakers for GP, Kobe and Shaq.

Why not Kobe , TMac and Amare? they would regulalry combine for about 80points in a game like GP, Kobe and Shaq yesterday despite Shaq being defended well.

Kobe would probably be more like the Jordan and TMac the Pippen just that people wouldn't realize it because TMac already has a big name and isn't growing in Jordan's shadow.

Afterall Jordan didn't win a championship without Pippen or did he?

Kobe=Jordan
TMac=Pippen
JJ=Harper
Amare= Well Malone/Kemp > Rodman :D
Lampe=Longley

:biglaugh:
 

thegrahamcrackr

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I don't like the deal Eric. It is to much to give up.

However, I am with Joe in believing that if the suns pick is not in the top 2, they might need to look at packaging it with Eisley if they have a strong indication they are in the thick of the Kobe sweepstakes. From what I understand, the 3-10 rang in the draft will most likely be a bunch of project players, which we do not need.


A JJ/Kobe backcourt would be lethal. JJ is a good passer, and can easily intiate the offense. And he proved last night, even when his shot isn't falling, he can still get 9-10 dimes.

Not to mention he is a great man defender. Kobe and JJ could shut down any backcourt in the league, and be a nightmare to match up with.
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by Chaplin
That's an awfully bad guess. Lampe apparently isn't fit to be a reserve, yet you think the only reason he's not starting is because we don't want an offensive center? :D

The Suns do not need a center whose ONLY skill is on offense. I am guessing that Lampe does not know how to play defense in the NBA. Jake's limitations on defense are physical but he mostly knows what he is supposed to do (except for making stupid fouls). Lampe did not even play center in Spain so I'm guessing his defensive skills are limited.
 

slinslin

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Though the first option that should be pursued very hard is trading Marion and our pick for McGrady especially if it is top 2 it has a decent chance to happen when McGrady indicates that he won't accept an extension.

PF-Amare
SF-TMac
SG-Kobe
PG-JJ

That would just be too good to not try your hardest to make it happen and see if it works out. I think that team would compare very favorably to the 72 wins Bulls.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by George O'Brien
The Suns do not need a center whose ONLY skill is on offense. I am guessing that Lampe does not know how to play defense in the NBA. Jake's limitations on defense are physical but he mostly knows what he is supposed to do (except for making stupid fouls). Lampe did not even play center in Spain so I'm guessing his defensive skills are limited.

I'm not even sure where you get the idea that Lampe's only skill is offense in the NBA. There's potential there, sure, but he was pretty hopeless on both sides of the floor in the few minutes he played for us.
 

George O'Brien

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Originally posted by Chaplin
I'm not even sure where you get the idea that Lampe's only skill is offense in the NBA. There's potential there, sure, but he was pretty hopeless on both sides of the floor in the few minutes he played for us.

It's the same as the discussion about Darko Milicic, ie reports of people who have seen them in practice. My guess is that if Lampe were given serious minutes and got comfortable on the court, he would score. He might not really understand the offense, but he would score.

But can he stop anyone? I'm guessing the answer right now is "no".
 

scotsman13

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maybe i am watching a differant suns game then all the rest of you are. the problem with this team isnt that it need some great scorer like tmac and kobe it is that they making rookie and young player mistakes. we had fought our way back from behind but we started making some mistakes and that turned the game around and allowed the lakers to win the game. marion, amare, jj, barbosa, zarko and maybe lampe and milos are the heart and future of this team. we dont know tmac and kobe. we need time.
 

slinslin

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Kobe is a great leader and defender on top of that.

Very good at moving without the ball, setting teammates up, making teammates better I guess.

Same for TMac I guess.

They are leaders that can lead a team through tough stretches, we don't have that yet.

Our defense might be bad on purpose to lose games though. Colangelo might know that next years team will be very different anyway so there isn't much of a point in working out a gameplan for next season already and they say to themselfes "at least score 90-100 points every game instead of losing real ugly.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by slinslin

Our defense might be bad on purpose to lose games though. Colangelo might know that next years team will be very different anyway so there isn't much of a point in working out a gameplan for next season already and they say to themselfes "at least score 90-100 points every game instead of losing real ugly.

You had me until this part. If you think we're losing games on purpose, you're delusional.
 

slinslin

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I thought it was one of those awesome conspiracy theories! Damn.

But I have to say it looks like they tank a bit. The constant first quarter lapses and then starting to play more seriously, coming close just to let the other team go again is a little bit weird.
 

Errntknght

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Chap, "I'm not even sure where you get the idea that Lampe's only skill is offense in the NBA. There's potential there, sure, but he was pretty hopeless on both sides of the floor in the few minutes he played for us."

Lampe didn't look at all hopeless on defense when he played in the Indiana game - in fact, he looked suprisingly good. Harrignton beat him once along the baseline but other than that he showed good footwork in keeping whoever he was guarding in front of him. (And Harrington had a field day against the other Suns that were guarding him that night, if you remember.)

As far as the idea of dumping White - after his excellent showing against Shaq we shouldn't be thinking in those terms. I would think Dallas would be quite interested in him - not only does Shaq tear them up, they need someone like Jahidi in the paint in most games. As I suggested in another post, maybe we could trade White to them for someone inexpensive like Najera plus their first round pick. We'd have the fun of giving Utah a #26 pick instead of the Knicks which will turn out to be about #13-15. Another possibility... put White on waivers right now - 10 to 1 he'd be picked up at full salary by some WC contender within minutes. At least, that's better than paying the Bobcats to take him. (Bill Walton came up with the idea of his value to contending WC teams but I'm not above taking a good idea from the most improbable of sources.)
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Well, like I said in the other thread, trading him to a team above the cap will kill us for the FA market.

However, your waiver idea has promise. In fact, if we get towards the end of the season, that might actually work. The amount owed on his salary would be so small, that teams won't worry about paying him. A team over the cap like Dallas as you suggested might grab him up.

Of course, we would need to have something pre arranged like we did with Scott Williams.


Man, what a great idea!

Does anyone think that is possibly the avenue the suns were thinking when they dealt the NY pick? Not that the Cats would take White for the cleavland pick, but that they could get a team to take up the end of his contract for the playoffs???
 

George O'Brien

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Assuming the Suns get rid of White, they will need to replace him with more than a veteran minimum player. I can't find a veteran (not on a rookie contract) earning less than $3 million a year that is more productive.

It is frustrating that Eisley has a bigger contract than White, yet is Eisley is more easily replaced. Kenny Anderson of Indianaas better numbers than Eisley and is with the Pacers on a one year veteran minimum contract. Mike James will be an FA after earning $630 K this year and his numbers are much better than Eisley's.

Even though Eisley is playing better, his contract is absurd. It will take more than a middle first round pick to unload him.
 
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