Name change rumor?

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
You, sir, are a master of the obvious.

Nothing gets by me today. I had Mt. Dew for breakfast.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by FanOfTheGame1
<< We spend lots of money, time and emotional energy supporting this team despite the fact that it just ain't fun. >>

There must be a psychological term for this. And it ain't a complementary one.

<< It's our loyalty to the team and to the State of Arizona that keeps us going. >>

I fail to see how loyalty to the state is relevant.

<< All we want is something to sink our teeth into that makes the experience enjoyable. Changing the identity of the team would really enhance the experience for us local fans. >>

Still don't see how.

<< And having a stadium full of fans that all want your team to win is thrilling. >>

That's completely beyond your control. What is in your control is how you spend your money. You're spending it on something you don't enjoy.

Dear "fan",

I love my home team and every year I hope they improve. Unfortunately all my money is spent during the time period when I am the most hopeful. After the draft, after a few FAs have been signed, etc. I suppose I could learn from the past as I have done in just about every other aspect of my life, but I consciously choose to ignore the past and hope for the best. Somewhere in your psychology book that is called being a "Fan". It's short for fanatic, which I'm sure has a psychological connotation all by itself without your name calling.

 

[FanOfTheGame1]

<< which I'm sure has a psychological connotation all by itself without your name calling >>

Ummm... _what_ name calling?

Believe it or not, I am a former season ticket holder. Once upon a time, there were many more than 15-20,000 of you. Most of us have chosen to spend our money elsewhere, having waited year after year for an effort from the Cardinal organization and seeing nothing. We hit our breaking point. You will too, sooner or later. Just because your back hasn't been broken yet, doesn't make you any more of a "fan" than the rest of us.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by FanOfTheGame1

Just because your back hasn't been broken yet, doesn't make you any more of a "fan" than the rest of us.

Actually, yes it does.

 

[FanOfTheGame1]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Actually, yes it does.

Okey dokey then, enjoy your empty stadium which depresses you so.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by conraddobler

They are all implants from a negativly charged universe. The real bidwills are over in theirs winning championship after championship and they make movies about them.

ouch. my heart just sank into my stomach when I read that.

 

[Rats]

I am late to this thread but I think the attitude of us versus them is the wrong approach. Jon makes good sense in what he desires and that is a better experience when he spends his hard earned money and he feels that if there were more fans at the game cheering for lets say an expansion AZ team he would be happier. It could be that as an Arizona resident that is what he wanted all along and manifests it now in "Change the name and identity" because the team is so bad. I think the facts would be that regardless of a name change as someone else pointed out the results would still be the same. Losing is Losing and it is hard to take no matter what the name is. And using the Coyotes as an example of marketing and change can only be done as a supporter of what I just said. Section 11 your premise that they change and still draw fans is totally wrong. They have had horrible attendance since St. Louis stole Tkuchuck from them they can't when with a broken down old goalie and rookies. And there attendance suffers because of it. IF they lose this year no one will drive to Glendale and watch. ....But the Cards for as greedy as everyone accuses them of being actually have taken a deaf ear approach to...."change the name" "you will draw more fans" and that means more $$$ for the Bidwill family. I thank them for that attitude....what this whole thread has left out is what I believe the owners have thought all along and that is more fans will come and attend when we have a cooler more pleasing place for them to root for the team at. Last week I roasted my left nut on the 50 yrd line seats on the west side of the stadium and that more than anything else is the reason I only go to games later in the year. The first month is brutal and everyone who sweats there ass off at the tailgates and the games knows what I am talking about. And also the teams performance suffers greatly in such crappy conditions. The talk of a name change is just that Talk. A new stadium will help this situation. A name change will not. No marketing plan will fix what is broken with the cards. They have to win and Win Period! That is the onlything that will help Jon and Section and Buckeye and all of the Cards Nation have a better Sunday 16 weeks a year.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Winning is the most important thing. I've always agreed with that. But sometimes it takes a makeover to get to a point where you believe in yourself and have others believe in you. Any of you fellas ever watch that show "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy?". I caught it a couple times. The premise is similar. You makeover a slovenly mutt and he gets hot chicks. At least hotter chicks than he would have gotten before. That's what the Cardinals need. They need five gay guys to come in and makeover the whole environment. Then maybe they'd win some games!

 

[Fiasco]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
If this team did indeed have as much tradition and history as it espouses, then why did it move from Chicago? Why did it move from St. Louis? That flys in the face of the tradition and history. It's hypocritical.

The Cardinals left Chicago because the NFL wanted to expand its presence to another city.

They moved from the St. Louis because we foolishly refused to build them a stadium, instead opting to lament the lack of pro football for a decade and then spend ten times as much money to land another one.

The whole name change argument is such ********.

Do you see the Rams having any identity crisis with the fans in St. Louis? No. Why? Because they win (The prolific amount of cash thrown at them by the region surely helped them build a winner). Fickle Arizona fans didn't seem to mind the Cardinals to much in 1998.

 

[Fiasco]

Any of you fellas ever watch that show "Queer Eye For the Straight Guy?". I caught it a couple times. The premise is similar. You makeover a slovenly mutt and he gets hot chicks.

Visit the same person a month or two later and they have reverted back to their old habits. Spit and Polish isn't going to fix the Cardinals and it isn't going to create a fan base in Arizona.

Only winning will do that, period.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Yes

Originally posted by Fiasco
Visit the same person a month or two later and they have reverted back to their old habits. Spit and Polish isn't going to fix the Cardinals and it isn't going to create a fan base in Arizona.

Only winning will do that, period.

A voice of reason.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by Fiasco
Visit the same person a month or two later and they have reverted back to their old habits. Spit and Polish isn't going to fix the Cardinals and it isn't going to create a fan base in Arizona.

Only winning will do that, period.

Another out of stater using big words like "********". I understand your point Fiasco, but all you had to do was say that you aren't from Arizona and I would have been able to write your post for you. Section 11 said it best when he suggested that when you long distance fans start filling up Sun Devil Stadium on a blistering hot September afternoon to root for "The Cardinals", then you'll understand where we're coming from.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Another out of stater using big words like "********". I understand your point Fiasco, but all you had to do was say that you aren't from Arizona and I would have been able to write your post for you. Section 11 said it best when he suggested that when you long distance fans start filling up Sun Devil Stadium on a blistering hot September afternoon to root for "The Cardinals", then you'll understand where we're coming from.

Well Jon, it appears you're getting irritated. It seems to me that you have abandoned the approach of trying to argue facts or logic. Instead, you're using someone elses words to imply that somehow you're right, and that "out of staters" are incapable of understanding why.

pretty lame.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior
Well Jon, it appears you're getting irritated. It seems to me that you have abandoned the approach of trying to argue facts or logic. Instead, you're using someone elses words to imply that somehow you're right, and that "out of staters" are incapable of understanding why.

pretty lame.

You're right. You're absolutely right. I've abandoned all logic. I started there though didn't I? I tried to explain how from a business perspective it might make sense to consider an identity change. I tried to suggest that it might be best for the team. Then I was made fun of because of my marketing background. My chosen profession was called into question. My character as a person was called into question. My allegiance to my team was called into question. Not that I am particularly wound up about the stones thrown on this board, but I suppose that I finally decided to discard my reasonable and logical argument in favor of showing some of the folks here how irrational and emotional they are by being irrational and emotional myself - - or at least seemingly. Amazing to me that you would notice the "lameness" of my current position and ignore the lameness of those that share your particular point of view. You are quite selective in your name calling aren't you? Go back and read this thread from the beginning and you'll see exactly what I mean. Then look in the mirror and consider "lame".

 

[earthsci]

Let me start out by saying that I oppose a name change. Great.

Considering that Jon is what I consider a pretty damn good fan of the Cardinals (he's a season ticket holder, buys merchandise, professes in public to be a fan, wears gear) you guys are being pretty judgemental. Because he thinks that a name change would be good. One of you who has been calling Jon out lives in the valley, doesn't go to games but, considers yourself a better fan because he doesn't want a name change. Right.

It boils down to this. For the most part (if any of you jump on my case, I will refer to that) you have-

No name changers - For the most part out of Arizona. They have followed the team since before they Cards moved to Arizona. Loyal followers of the team with the bird on the helmet, which happens to be the NFL team in Arizona.

Name changers - For the most part in Arizona. They started following the team the minute they (either the Cards or the fan) moved to Arizona. Loyal followers of the NFL team in Arizona, which happens to be the team with the bird on the helmet. Other than the fact that that I oppose a name change, this is what I am.

As a no name changer I believe to be truly successful the Cardinals need both types of fans. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if the Cards would hold up their end of the bargain and more than once every two months.

We Cards fans are few and far between, even here in Arizona.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by earthsci
Let me start out by saying that I oppose a name change. Great.

Considering that Jon is what I consider a pretty damn good fan of the Cardinals (he's a season ticket holder, buys merchandise, professes in public to be a fan, wears gear) you guys are being pretty judgemental. Because he thinks that a name change would be good. One of you who has been calling Jon out lives in the valley, doesn't go to games but, considers yourself a better fan because he doesn't want a name change. Right.

It boils down to this. For the most part (if any of you jump on my case, I will refer to that) you have-

No name changers - For the most part out of Arizona. They have followed the team since before they Cards moved to Arizona. Loyal followers of the team with the bird on the helmet, which happens to be the NFL team in Arizona.

Name changers - For the most part in Arizona. They started following the team the minute they (either the Cards or the fan) moved to Arizona. Loyal followers of the NFL team in Arizona, which happens to be the team with the bird on the helmet. Other than the fact that that I oppose a name change, this is what I am.

As a no name changer I believe to be truly successful the Cardinals need both types of fans. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if the Cards would hold up their end of the bargain and more than once every two months.

We Cards fans are few and far between, even here in Arizona.

Earthsci,

As a local fan who would prefer not to change the identity of the team, and as someone who has a rational head about the issue, can you share with me/us why you oppose the idea? The reason I ask is because it would be interesting for me to understand your point of view in more detail. Is it an emotional issue for you - - the whole tradition viewpoint? Is it just that you have grown to appreciate the Cardinal brandname? Thanks.

 

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
You're right. You're absolutely right. I've abandoned all logic. I started there though didn't I? I tried to explain how from a business perspective it might make sense to consider an identity change. I tried to suggest that it might be best for the team. Then I was made fun of because of my marketing background. My chosen profession was called into question. My character as a person was called into question. My allegiance to my team was called into question. Not that I am particularly wound up about the stones thrown on this board, but I suppose that I finally decided to discard my reasonable and logical argument in favor of showing some of the folks here how irrational and emotional they are by being irrational and emotional myself - - or at least seemingly. Amazing to me that you would notice the "lameness" of my current position and ignore the lameness of those that share your particular point of view. You are quite selective in your name calling aren't you? Go back and read this thread from the beginning and you'll see exactly what I mean. Then look in the mirror and consider "lame".

Hey Jon, the length and passion of this thread just goes to show that the name change concept is a very emotionaly charged issue. It gets to the core of the fans identity with the team they love. And guess what, there is nothing logical about that. Everybody (including you and I) ends up sounding kinda lame when they try to push their opinion on others. Bottom line is that it's fruitless anyway because you are not going to change our opinion no matter what marketing spin you pull out of your bag of tricks. And for the record, I have nothing against marketers - some of my best friends are marketers. A somewhat over-rated yet lovely profession IMHO.

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Earthsci,

As a local fan who would prefer not to change the identity of the team, and as someone who has a rational head about the issue, can you share with me/us why you oppose the idea? The reason I ask is because it would be interesting for me to understand your point of view in more detail. Is it an emotional issue for you - - the whole tradition viewpoint? Is it just that you have grown to appreciate the Cardinal brandname? Thanks.

Because I feel that changing the name would be a debacle. The name would change, the uniforms would change and the Cards would keep losing. Winning will put people in the seats and that's what the Cards need to do. History has shown (maybe it's changing now but...) that the Cards can't chew gum and walk at the same time. To answer your last question, I've learned to appreciate the name and tradition. Don't think that I haven't thought of alternative names (Arizona Apache, with the blessing of the tribe, of course). I would still follow the team, name change or no. I'm a fan of all AZ teams, whatever they are called.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by earthsci
Because I feel that changing the name would be a debacle. The name would change, the uniforms would change and the Cards would keep losing. Winning will put people in the seats and that's what the Cards need to do. History has shown (maybe it's changing now but...) that the Cards can't chew gum and walk at the same time. To answer your last question, I've learned to appreciate the name and tradition. Don't think that I haven't thought of alternative names (Arizona Apache, with the blessing of the tribe, of course). I would still follow the team, name change or no. I'm a fan of all AZ teams, whatever they are called.

So what I hear you saying is that you think if the Cardinals changed their identity that they would do it in lieu of improving their on-field performance - - hence the "debacle"? What if they started winning more consistently and THEN they decided to change their name (for whatever reason). Would you feel differently?

 

[8ndkorner]

Originally posted by maddogkf
My ass!

You must be registered for see images attach

HEY! That works!

But with the Cardinals it could mean that we are so good that it appears we are playing with kids.

OK, I'm sorry. It's amazing what we get used to reading in the news.

 

[8ndkorner]

Originally posted by 8ndkorner
HEY! That works!

But with the Cardinals it could mean that we are so good that it appears we are playing with kids.

OK, I'm sorry. It's amazing what we get used to reading in the news.

I was talking about keeping "Cardinals".

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
So what I hear you saying is that you think if the Cardinals changed their identity that they would do it in lieu of improving their on-field performance - - hence the "debacle"? What if they started winning more consistently and THEN they decided to change their name (for whatever reason). Would you feel differently?

I don't want to change their name. I want them to win. No matter what, I'll still root for them. Name change, no name change, winning, losing. The only reason that I put in my two cents is because people that are good fans are attacking other good fans loyalties.

 

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Another out of stater using big words like "********". I understand your point Fiasco, but all you had to do was say that you aren't from Arizona and I would have been able to write your post for you. Section 11 said it best when he suggested that when you long distance fans start filling up Sun Devil Stadium on a blistering hot September afternoon to root for "The Cardinals", then you'll understand where we're coming from.

Jon - you have really become an ass about this issue. Just because out of towners don't generally agree with you doesn't mean we are scum or we are any less of a fan. And don't put that empty stadium on us out of towners either. When we can, we support your city and spend $$$$ in Arizona because of the Cards. I've fried my butt on those god-awful silver benches many times. To blame out of towners for Arizona's apathy is rediculous.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by Rivercard
Jon - you have really become an ass about this issue. Just because out of towners don't generally agree with you doesn't mean we are scum or we are any less of a fan. And don't put that empty stadium on us out of towners either. When we can, we support your city and spend $$$$ in Arizona because of the Cards. I've fried my butt on those god-awful silver benches many times. To blame out of towners for Arizona's apathy is rediculous.

There you go again with the name calling. Try and understand RC, I think it's fine to disagree with me. I'm not trying to suggest that wanting to keep the name is wrong per se. But I have yet to hear one rational argument for it despite numerous requests and instead all I get is emotion and rude attacks, you very much included. It was people who share your point of view that made this whole conversation a heated one.

Also, I never called anyone scum. You used that word, not me. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth and you'd be a man to take it back. I also never put the responsibility for the empty stadium on long-distance fans. All I said is that what the team really needs is local fan support because of the financial and emotional impact that can have. You long-distance folks just can't feasibly provide the same support. I mean, do you really disagree with that?

So, I appreciate the fact that you come to games when you can. We need all the help we can get. I appreciate that you have loyalty to the Cardinal name and would like to keep it because of the tradition and longstanding history of the organization. My question was, is, and will remain to be: "What if changing the identity of the team, coinciding with the new stadium, and coinciding with a front office overhaul that provides a clear and proven path to success on the field, all took place at the same time... Would you continue to support the team with all those changes in place, or would you abandon your passion for the team because the name, logo and uniforms changed?".

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by Rivercard
Jon - you have really become an ass about this issue. Just because out of towners don't generally agree with you doesn't mean we are scum or we are any less of a fan. And don't put that empty stadium on us out of towners either. When we can, we support your city and spend $$$$ in Arizona because of the Cards. I've fried my butt on those god-awful silver benches many times. To blame out of towners for Arizona's apathy is rediculous.

I couldn't agree more, with just about every aspect of what you say Rivercard.
I also agree with Earthsci's comment too in regard to some people here attacking others loyalty, and then compounding that asininity with the local/out-of-towners BS.

Some of my "random" thoughts on some of this:

*I no longer live in Phoenix. I lived there over 20 years, until circumstances dictated a specific move away. I love Arizona, and Phoenix, I miss it greatly. Arizona became a part of me that can never be taken away. Whether or not I will ever be able to return, only time will tell. I speak only for myself, but I would like to think that most people think like I do, in that our expressed opinions really have nothing to do with whether we presently live in Arizona or not. That is such complete and utter ********, that it is disgusting.

*I understand marketing very well...in fact John, I may be more versed, educated / knowledgable , and experienced at it that even you.

*I understand the importance of marketing as well as anyone. Having said that, I will say experience has taught me to view it the same as Elmer G. Leterman said: (do you know who he is John ?)
"Personality can open doors, but only character can keep them open"

*since I'm jumping in the mud bog here, I might as well jump all the way in. Something for all you "progressive" marketing geniuses to ponder: Where is the present day NFL teams revenue stream? Television, right? Who watches most football games on TV? The hometown fan with season tickets? Who is really the originator of most of the "revenue source"? Where is and has been the NFL, in general, been primarily addressing it's "marketing"? Look at whats happening presently. No more free radio streaming. Direct TV, with its "Sunday ticket" just gets a 3 yr new contract. Tivo, Divo, dipsquat.
To say "out of town" fans aren't contributing to the revenue base goes beyond asinine. All football fans are investing not only time but money into "the game". Making "in-state"/"out of state" comparisons is just a form of ignorant elitism...a total crock.