Nature or Nuture

[Harry]

In the case of the Cards’ defense it’s scheme or personnel. I’ve maintained that it’s nearly impossible to accurately rate the scheme with this poor quality of personnel. The Athletic Net Mag (worth buying) has a great article today on Keim’s responsibility for the extremely weak defensive personnel.

The article was entitled, “Does GM Steve Keim deserve a chance to fix the Cardinals in 2020?” The mag’s biggest indictment was the lack of quality in his recent drafts. Their summation was simple, “To sum up: Arizona has just four players on defense from the 2015-18 drafts and only one of the three (remaining), Baker, is a cornerstone player.” I’m not sure I agree about Baker but I do agree Keim has done an unacceptable job of assembling a competitive defense. My resounding response; fire Keim.

As to what this means about Joseph, I’ve advocate giving him another year. You simply can’t change scheme every year and expect success. He might fail again but at least he knows what to do expect of the returning players. I don’t want the Cards to get a reputation of impatience which could scare off the best DC candidates.

 

[Buckybird]

Agree about Keim Harry.

But I also think Joseph should be shown the door as well. Sure talent counts, but so does coaching, if not more important.

Does anyone think this pass defense is this pathetic & inept if Bellichik, Phillips, Carroll, etc where in charge of this defense with the same exact players? I don’t. Hmmmmm

My reasons:
1) back to back years of complete ineptitude. Historically bad run defense last season, historically bad pass defense this season.

2) never has had an answer at even remotely controlling a TE in coverage. It hasn’t mattered if it was a starter or his backup, they torched this team. 69 catches, 969 yards, 13 TDs and 45 first downs. Yes, from the TE position & we’ve got 4 games left.

Double team him, triple team him, show me you’re at least trying to stop the TE. Not 1 single adjustment all season!!!

3) career days allowed every single game from individual players, starters & backups. Jimmy G twice!!!

4) soft zones!!! Too often, too many easy, wide open throws that most of us could complete. Throws where there’s not a defender within 10 yards of the receiver... in a zone defense? 12 weeks & nothing has changed? THATS COACHING!!!

5) players complained in Denver about Joseph’s defenses & they had pretty damn good talent & didn’t play that well for 2 seasons under him.

6) our pass defense is getting worse as the season goes along. To me this screams the players do not believe in the scheme or what they are being taught

Fire Keim, Fire Joseph!!! Next!!!

 

[kerouac9]

Our pass defense might feel historically bad, but we’re 26th in DVOA right now.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Our pass defense might feel historically bad, but we’re 26th in DVOA right now.

That's adjusted, if you go by raw, we are 31st. Let's see how we do after Hodges.

 

[pinetopred]

Harry I know you have forgotten more about football then I'll ever know my question. Why has this defense regressed if VJ is such a good coach wouldn't we be seeing sparks of young guys getting it or even unproven vets stepping up. Coaching IMO is bad somebody besides guys who have already played at a high level should have showed by now?

 

[Jetstream Green]

Agree about Keim Harry.

But I also think Joseph should be shown the door as well. Sure talent counts, but so does coaching, if not more important.

Does anyone think this pass defense is this pathetic & inept if Bellichik, Phillips, Carroll, etc where in charge of this defense with the same exact players? I don’t. Hmmmmm

My reasons:
1) back to back years of complete ineptitude. Historically bad run defense last season, historically bad pass defense those season.

2) never has had an answer at even remotely controlling a TE in coverage. It hasn’t mattered if it was a starter or his backup, they torched this team. 69 catches, 969 yards, 13 TDs and 45 first downs. Yes, from the TE position & we’ve got 4 games left.

Double team him, triple team him, show me you’re at least trying to stop the TE. Not 1 single adjustment all season!!!

3) career days allowed every single game from individual players, starters & backups. Jimmy G twice!!!

4) soft zones!!! Too often, too many easy, wide open throws that most of us could complete. Throws where there’s not a defender within 10 yards of the receiver... in a zone defense? 12 weeks & nothing has changed? THATS COACHING!!!

5) players complained in Denver about Joseph’s defenses & they had pretty damn good talent & didn’t play that well for 2 seasons under him.

6) our pass defense is getting worse as the season goes along. To me this screams the players do not believe in the scheme or what they are being taught

Fire Keim, Fire Joseph!!! Next!!!

I agree on the Joseph aspect as well fellow 'T' sipper, because how does a well coached team keep getting suckered screen after screen, not to mention the busted coverages where guys are wide open... that's not a talent thing when guys are taking no responsibility before you can even judge them in a scheme, that is a coach with no authority in the minds of his players who also seem to lack leadership quality or rather willing to exert their opinion

 

[TJ]

I think what Michael B needs to ask himself is, “do I have 100% confidence that Keim can rebuild this roster?” I have a hard time believing he can trust Keim to right the ship sooner rather than later. This team hasn’t been above .500 since 2015, our roster is devoid of talent, we have $46 million in dead money counting towards the cap, and we’ll be on DC #5 next season in the Keim era assuming Vance doesn’t make it out alive. This is like Ryan McDonough. At a certain point, you have to hold the man responsible for a flurry of bad decisions accountable.

 

[Buckybird]

If we fire Joseph let’s hope Bidwill just says no to Todd Orlando or Charlie Strong lol

I agree on the Joseph aspect as well fellow 'T' sipper, because how does a well coached team keep getting suckered screen after screen, not to mention the busted coverages where guys are wide open... that's not a talent thing when guys are taking no responsibility before you can even judge them in a scheme, that is a coach with no authority in the minds of his players who also seem to lack leadership quality or rather willing to exert their opinion

 

[Jetstream Green]

If we fire Joseph let’s hope Bidwill just says no to Todd Orlando or Charlie Strong lol

Right, or any guy pretending to coach defense in the Big XII lol

 

[Buckybird]

Right, or any guy pretending to coach defense in the Big XII lol

Well it does seem like Kliff has the same kind of defense he had a Tech. Lol

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Agree about Keim Harry.

But I also think Joseph should be shown the door as well. Sure talent counts, but so does coaching, if not more important.

Does anyone think this pass defense is this pathetic & inept if Bellichik, Phillips, Carroll, etc where in charge of this defense with the same exact players? I don’t. Hmmmmm

My reasons:
1) back to back years of complete ineptitude. Historically bad run defense last season, historically bad pass defense those season.

2) never has had an answer at even remotely controlling a TE in coverage. It hasn’t mattered if it was a starter or his backup, they torched this team. 69 catches, 969 yards, 13 TDs and 45 first downs. Yes, from the TE position & we’ve got 4 games left.

Double team him, triple team him, show me you’re at least trying to stop the TE. Not 1 single adjustment all season!!!

3) career days allowed every single game from individual players, starters & backups. Jimmy G twice!!!

4) soft zones!!! Too often, too many easy, wide open throws that most of us could complete. Throws where there’s not a defender within 10 yards of the receiver... in a zone defense? 12 weeks & nothing has changed? THATS COACHING!!!

5) players complained in Denver about Joseph’s defenses & they had pretty damn good talent & didn’t play that well for 2 seasons under him.

6) our pass defense is getting worse as the season goes along. To me this screams the players do not believe in the scheme or what they are being taught

Fire Keim, Fire Joseph!!! Next!!!

You're spot on with this imo. All 3 coaches you mentioned would get more out of our defense than VJ. Switching DC's after 1 yr is a bad look yes, but it has to be done. I'm fairly certain any DC candidate could look at our film & see why the Cardinals wanted to fire VJ. It's just mind boggling after 12 games, there's still no communication, guys are running wide open with defenders scrambling trying to figure out who's covering who? Plus we can't stop a 4th string TE. No excuse for VJ. If he was even a decent DC, he could get this defense to stop the run & the TE. I'd be fine with that. The fact that his defense can only stop the run is sickening to me. That's even a little misleading. Why? Because teams are running less against us, simply because they know our pass defense is just that bad.

 

[SoonerLou]

That's adjusted, if you go by raw, we are 31st. Let's see how we do after Hodges.

To me thats the test.

Its one thing when talented guys who had success like Goff goes off on us. However, can't let the Kyle Allen's have career days.

Hodges is worse than Allen. If Vance can't stop him from having a career day..

 

[cardpa]

In the case of the Cards’ defense it’s scheme or personnel. I’ve maintained that it’s nearly impossible to accurately rate the scheme with this poor quality of personnel. The Athletic Net Mag (worth buying) has a great article today on Keim’s responsibility for the extremely weak defensive personnel.

The article was entitled, “Does GM Steve Keim deserve a chance to fix the Cardinals in 2020?” The mag’s biggest indictment was the lack of quality in his recent drafts. Their summation was simple, “To sum up: Arizona has just four players on defense from the 2015-18 drafts and only one of the three (remaining), Baker, is a cornerstone player.” I’m not sure I agree about Baker but I do agree Keim has done an unacceptable job of assembling a competitive defense. My resounding response; fire Keim.

As to what this means about Joseph, I’ve advocate giving him another year. You simply can’t change scheme every year and expect success. He might fail again but at least he knows what to do expect of the returning players. I don’t want the Cards to get a reputation of impatience which could scare off the best DC candidates.

Harry, I agree with you and as for Joseph, I am also in agreement. As I posted in another thread https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...8-7-after-the-game.331483/page-2#post-4098990 his history especially with the secondary is a lot different than what we are seeing with the Cardinals and I find it hard to believe he suddenly forgot how to assemble an efficient secondary. Add to that comments by Jordan Hicks https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2019...es-defensive-woes-on-execution-communication/ about the the defense practicing for 95% of what they see on Sunday and they still can't stop it tells me it's a player problem much more than a coaching problem. Undisciplined players make for a lot harder coaching no matter what the talent level and it's not like Joseph can just replace them.

 

[New Mexico]

In the case of the Cards’ defense it’s scheme or personnel. I’ve maintained that it’s nearly impossible to accurately rate the scheme with this poor quality of personnel. The Athletic Net Mag (worth buying) has a great article today on Keim’s responsibility for the extremely weak defensive personnel.

The article was entitled, “Does GM Steve Keim deserve a chance to fix the Cardinals in 2020?” The mag’s biggest indictment was the lack of quality in his recent drafts. Their summation was simple, “To sum up: Arizona has just four players on defense from the 2015-18 drafts and only one of the three (remaining), Baker, is a cornerstone player.” I’m not sure I agree about Baker but I do agree Keim has done an unacceptable job of assembling a competitive defense. My resounding response; fire Keim.

As to what this means about Joseph, I’ve advocate giving him another year. You simply can’t change scheme every year and expect success. He might fail again but at least he knows what to do expect of the returning players. I don’t want the Cards to get a reputation of impatience which could scare off the best DC candidates.

Agree about firing Keim, but I'd leave it up to the new GM about what to do with the coaches. I'd hope the GM would keep K2 and am ambivalent about Joseph.

Firing Keim is a no-brainer. It's not just the defense, the OL is awful too, and he's a former offensive lineman! It's the one position group you would think he could draft right.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Fire Bill Davis and everything will be better.

 

[Harry]

Some specific personnel thoughts. What other defense has 2 rookies (not even top 3 round draft picks) as it’s 2nd & 3rd safety options? How about that the team’s second dedicated pass rusher is old enough to be drawing social security checks? His decline has led to a weakened pass rush that has exposed the secondary. As to not defending tight ends, other than double covering them, Joseph’s tried everyone on them. No one’s performance was memorable. Let’s look at that secondary. He lost both CB starters, one for the entire season. The other returned from suspension either missing his PEDs or in major decline. The rookie he was given has developed well for a rookie CB thrown into action. Reddick was failing continuously before Joseph got here. On the D-Line he lost the top free agent he was given his release before the season started. No quality replacement was acquired. He lost his only highly drafted lineman from the last draft for the season. Joseph has one star player, Jones, and he’s having a career best year. Joseph was given one quality FA, Hicks, and he’s having a career year. I’m not saying losing Joseph would be a huge error. I am saying he never had a chance. He didn’t come in and lie about what defense he’d play, like Wilks. Showing my age in the process, “Joseph couldn’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.”

 

[Chopper0080]

Some specific personnel thoughts. What other defense has 2 rookies (not even top 3 round draft picks) as it’s 2nd & 3rd safety options? How about that the team’s second dedicated pass rusher is old enough to be drawing social security checks? His decline has led to a weakened pass rush that has exposed the secondary. As to not defending tight ends, other than double covering them, Joseph’s tried everyone on them. No one’s performance was memorable. Let’s look at that secondary. He lost both CB starters, one for the entire season. The other returned from suspension either missing his PEDs or in major decline. The rookie he was given has developed well for a rookie CB thrown into action. Reddick was failing continuously before Joseph got here. On the D-Line he lost the top free agent he was given his release before the season started. No quality replacement was acquired. He lost his only highly drafted lineman from the last draft for the season. Joseph has one star player, Jones, and he’s having a career best year. Joseph was given one quality FA, Hicks, and he’s having a career year. I’m not saying losing Joseph would be a huge error. I am saying he never had a chance. He didn’t come in and lie about what defense he’d play, like Wilks. Showing my age in the process, “Joseph couldn’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.”

Harry, I believe the thing that people are struggling with is the lack of progress in understanding the defensive scheme and individual assignments. That, and the unwillingness to pivot if necessary. If your personnel can't cover for more than a second or two, sell out with more blitzes. If you can't play zone, incorporate more man.

I guess for me, if you can't teach zone concepts and eye discipline to your DBs by week 13 of an NFL season, you are probably not a very good teacher.

 

[Harry]

Harry, I believe the thing that people are struggling with is the lack of progress in understanding the defensive scheme and individual assignments. That, and the unwillingness to pivot if necessary. If your personnel can't cover for more than a second or two, sell out with more blitzes. If you can't play zone, incorporate more man.

I guess for me, if you can't teach zone concepts and eye discipline to your DBs by week 13 of an NFL season, you are probably not a very good teacher.

This is tricky. The Cards tried to play a little man. What they found is simple their LBs couldn’t cover their own shadow. Their safeties are limited. I’ve written that Baker is so stiff coming out of a break he usually loses contact. The rookie safeties show a willingness but also a lack of real experience. They couldn’t cover a TE, let alone a WR. 21 was supposed to be the man. They’ve used him in man more than anyone and he’s failed miserably. Brock was dumped because he was decent in man and tackling but seemed to have no interest playing zone. This was a statement cut. Murphy looks like a future corner, but like virtually every CB rookie he’s been schooled numerous times. Overall this secondary lacks leadership, speed and agility. I think this secondary has a chance to be improved next year. They have some raw talent. Hopefully they’ll dedicated their offseason to improving their craft. I think Peterson would provide addition by subtraction but his value may have eroded too much to be worth the effort. In any case whether it’s Alford or Peterson’s replacement, they need to add a leader.

 

[AZCB34]

Harry, I believe the thing that people are struggling with is the lack of progress in understanding the defensive scheme and individual assignments. That, and the unwillingness to pivot if necessary. If your personnel can't cover for more than a second or two, sell out with more blitzes. If you can't play zone, incorporate more man.

I guess for me, if you can't teach zone concepts and eye discipline to your DBs by week 13 of an NFL season, you are probably not a very good teacher.

How much of that is really on position coaches rather than the actual DC?

 

[Harry]

How much of that is really on position coaches rather than the actual DC?

Interesting question. The problem is they’ve all got weak personnel, so it’s hard to evaluate them. The biggest questions would surround David Raih, the Dbacks Coach. With so many rookies, player development would be crucial. His background is a concern. He did coach the secondary at GB last season. Didn’t seem like a great year. While people talk about this being Joseph’s group, Raih was the receivers coach for KK during his high school tenure. As far as I can tell he has no other receiver credentials.

 

[splitsecond]

Our nature is bad in all three phases on this roster. Yes we have a QB and yes we have SOME weapons, so it's not nearly as bad as the defense from a "nature" standpoint, but we HAVE seen improvement from players on offense and special teams. We haven't seen one iota of this on defense. I believe it is both nature and nurture causing the problems on defense and VJ should be shown the door. I have defended him plenty but when offense and special teams coaches have been able to improve players he has not. At all.

 

[JeffGollin]

Faced with the Vance Joseph situation, I fell back on what I'll call "The Jersey Devils Metaphor."

In Jersey, the team "got lucky" and won back to back draft lotteries. They netted us two #1's in Hischler and Hughes. Together with Taylor Hall, this gave us three franchise newcomers considered future superstars.

Together with a highly regarded HC in Hynes, the future looked rosie.

Instead, the Devs lost game after game this season in ever-more humiliating fashion.

An "aerial view" of the Devils suggested a talented team with solid coaching that wasn't getting it done. So what do you do? Fire the GM? Fire the HC? Gut it out and hope for the best? Make a bunch of risky trades?

My own take was that everyone just loved the current regime (they brought in great players and the coaching was solid) but that there comes a time when you can't wait any longer. You have to bite the bullet and make a change (because it's not a lock that doing nothing will change things if you wait long enough).

The Devils fired Hynes yesterday. I'm not so sure it was the right move. Possible clue to the reason for Dev's troubles - they typically ran out of physical (& mental) stamina around the end of the 2nd period. Trouble may have lurked hidden and unknown deep inside the organization.

 

[Buckybird]

Harry, I believe the thing that people are struggling with is the lack of progress in understanding the defensive scheme and individual assignments. That, and the unwillingness to pivot if necessary. If your personnel can't cover for more than a second or two, sell out with more blitzes. If you can't play zone, incorporate more man.

I guess for me, if you can't teach zone concepts and eye discipline to your DBs by week 13 of an NFL season, you are probably not a very good teacher.

Ding ding ding.

Our pass defense is getting worse as the season progresses. I truly believe they don’t believe in the scheme, DC & what they are being taught at this point. I’ve been hearing the word communication the last several weeks from some players. To me that says either Joseph’s schemes are too complicated or the schemes just suck. I still say the coaching is worse than the talent

 

[wit3card]

Harry, firing Keim is right, he didn't improve enough to varant a longer stay.

I myself was in his corner this offseason to give him one more year. But expect for a HC that is more OC than HC yet, a QB that is a rookie but looks promising, and as of now a CB that seems to be poisned to be an average CB in the league, we don't have squad.

47 Mio of Cap space that we can't use is as bad as the one he inherited, that means he didn't learn but has made the same bad things as his precessor.

We are talking about the guy that told us he has a 3 year planing, and next year is year three and we are so in damage that only by a major retool we are an .500 team. That is not really good as a GM, yes there are probably teams out there that will hire him after the black friday, but we can't stay with him, he probably is to secure of his job or has a too good conection to his guys or whatever, but it seems he makes so much bad decisions and more than good ones.

DJ is a good example, the contract wasn't great at that time it was okaish, but now it seems to be a rotten tomato of contract. And the saying was and is, don't pay the RB. Bell/Jets- Steelers ... just one point. TM another one, the 10 Mio$ TE another one and so on...

He never made the difficult decisions, he keept them looming till they were inevitable. Like PP21 he should have traded him last year before PP21 demanded it, for #1 and a #3 and gosh, yes you get the heat, but he is the GM he should sometimes feel the heat. He would have got a chance to draft at least 1 good player, maybe two. And if you know what we know now, and he as a GM should have known that PP21 is playing garbage if he doesn't get traded in such circumstances, than you have to trade him.


But i concur to your assumption that Vance Joseph should stay, he shouldn't he didn't improve one single player, not one out of 20 guys he tried, at you know what that calls? That Calls Amos Jones.

He was the CB coach and the CB did good? Why did they good? Because they Front 7 crushed the O-line pretty fast? Because running was easier than passing? Because he had 2 studs on CB? You know, I'm not sold on such presumptions.

VJ was a bad HC in Denver, a really bad one and his D wasn't great at all, with really good talent and from my perspective Denver this year is back at being a good D again without him.

So basically that screems addition trough subtraction by Denver. And if Wilks D was bad, Josephs D is way worse.

And you can't tell me that going from a Bad D to a worse D with more or less the same personel is all on the players. Wilks didn't have Suggs or Hicks last year and performed better. And yes Wilks had PP21 but hadn't anything on the other side. So Joseph would have PP21 and Murphy what already is better then Wilks had.

So basically we are now calling Vance Joseph to stay when Wilks rightfully was fired? No.

Fire Joseph, hire Rivera/Roman or an other good DC that didn't make it as a HC this year and call it a day.

So basically, fire Keim, go outside of the buidling and hire a GM candidate from an other worthy team, than hire Rivera/Roman or another top DC, than call it a day and go for fishing. After you come back, you maybe have some good picks made by your new GM some trades done that help you on rebuilding and a conversation with your HC that he has to be HC than OC. (meaning more ingame adjusting, more calling to the strengths, more winning, less overreactions, try to help each side of the ball on the team, more good game time decisions and so on)

 

[football karma]

Our pass defense might feel historically bad, but we’re 26th in DVOA right now.

more than feel: current passer rating allowed, if at this level for a full year, would be the second worst QB Rating allowed .......... ever


so, one year after we got to witness a historically bad offense, we get to witness a historically bad passing defense