NBA FINALS: San Antonio vs. Detroit

[Joe Mama]

the mere fact that you can't even remember ONE person speaks volumes.

Now - can anyone show me a White 6'9 PF who has contribted to a NBA Title contender in the last 15 years?

you do know you can do all of these quotes and replies in one post, right?

I'm not sure if I would call Robert Horry the greatest role player ever, but off the top of my head I can think of one who's been better and bigger in the playoffs. Of course says Eric has pointed out some of that has to do with the sheer volume of his playoff experience. He has played an a lot more playoff games than almost any other player.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

I find it impossible to believe that you think Horry has simply got lucky five (and potentially six) times in his career and I just don't see why you won't acknowledge that Horry might have that certain x-factor (for lack of anything else better to call it) that makes him so good 'in the clutch'.

He does have a certain x-factor, which is that he doesn't choke. Some good players choke when the pressure gets greatest, and Horry doesn't. That's good.

I don't think he has "simply got lucky." He has been in the right place at the right time on many occasions. But when we remember only his successes instead of his failures, we get a very distorted picture.

you DON'T think Horry's "clutch" correct?

I won't argue a term that can't be objectively defined.

I think he's a great ROLE player.

I won't argue that term either. You seem to be using a sliding scale that defines role player to be, "Anyone who is no more important to his team than Robert Horry was in his last game." Using that yardstick, it isn't too surprising that Horry is at the head of the class.

I've already said that I don't have the resources to look up other cases. But even if I did, you'd say "He wasn't a role player" or "Those times weren't all clutch" or "It doesn't matter, because he didn't win as many titles." So what's the point?

I've also already agreed that Horry has the reputation of being a clutch player. (It's worth noting that Kidd has the reputation of being a great teammate, Marbury has the reputation of being selfish, and Stoudemire has the reputation of being just a dunker, so the accuracy of reputations is something that might be worth thinking about.) But in any case, I'm influenced by league propaganda as well, so it's easier for me to think of Horry as a "clutch role player" than it is to come up with other examples. That doesn't make it accurate.

I guess what it boils down to is that when someone tells me what to think, my first reaction is to try to find hard evidence to justify the position. When I don't find it -- or find evidence to the contrary -- it makes me even more resistant to the person or people who are trying to manipulate my thinking.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've already said that I don't have the resources to look up other cases. But even if I did, you'd say "He wasn't a role player" or "Those times weren't all clutch" or "It doesn't matter, because he didn't win as many titles." So what's the point?

I guess what it boils down to is that when someone tells me what to think, my first reaction is to try to find hard evidence to justify the position. When I don't find it -- or find evidence to the contrary -- it makes me even more resistant to the person or people who are trying to manipulate my thinking.

as to the top - nice straw man argument. You say there are plenty of other players - can't name one and then say if you did name one, I wouldn't say they're clutch anyway. That's ridiculous.

As to point number, yeah - I guess I'm just a drone who bases my thinking purely off what the media says. It couldn't be from beinbg a Suns fan and watching Horry tear our heart out years after year and having to watch every Laker game living in LA the last 8 years - it must all be the media.

 

[NickelBack]

I just heard this on the radio - Detroit became the first road team since the Finals went to a 2-3-2 format to force a Game 7 after being down, 3-2, in the series.

 

[Joe Mama]

it must all be the media.

There it is again... you bastard!

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

There it is again... you bastard!

Joe

I put that in there especially for you Joe. So much for that hiatus - I hate this place.

 

[WizardOfAz]

Tight at the half - Detroit by one.

 

[George O'Brien]

San Antonio won by holding the Pistons to only 74 points.

The key to the game came in the third quarter when Sheed Wallace and Dice each got their fourth fouls. SA used that period to gain a lead that they were able to hang onto until the end.

In the end, the home court advantage proved decisive. While each team won a game on the other's court, it seems unlikely that the Spurs would have gotten the Pistons into foul trouble in Detroit.

BTW, inspite of the fact that several guys got into foul trouble, the game was terribly "physical". There were so many uncalled fouls it was ridiculous. It is going to take some serious toughness for the Suns to get by SA to win it all.

 

[cly2tw]

San Antonio won by holding the Pistons to only 74 points.

The key to the game came in the third quarter when Sheed Wallace and Dice each got their fourth fouls. SA used that period to gain a lead that they were able to hang onto until the end.

In the end, the home court advantage proved decisive. While each team won a game on the other's court, it seems unlikely that the Spurs would have gotten the Pistons into foul trouble in Detroit.

BTW, inspite of the fact that several guys got into foul trouble, the game was terribly "physical". There were so many uncalled fouls it was ridiculous. It is going to take some serious toughness for the Suns to get by SA to win it all.

Well, Detroit still had plenty of chance to win it in the 4th. First, they diversified their offense too much through the inferior players in Ben and Prince. Instead they should have gone more 1-on-1 via Billups. Second, they doubled teamed TD too much, and that were 3 or 4 big 3pts the Spurs always hit in the 4th quarters throughout the playoffs. Too bad.

 

[Brian]

I don't follow basketball as closely as you folks, but I have to agree with Cheese (god that burns my ass to say)

The one thing that I've always known Robert Horry for is making HUGE game changing/deciding shots in the playoffs. He did it in Houston, LA, and now in San Antonio. I HATE Robert Horry.

There could be a short film showing his biggest, clutch, ice-in-his-veins shots.

Did I mention I hate him? I know he's a good guy though.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Shocker - Horry hits for 15 points, hits a huge 3 three that extends the lead to 5 (never got closer than that), comes up with a huge offensive rebound that allowed the Spurs to go up 6, then takes a huge charge in the last 2:00 minutes with the Pistons challenging - but of course - in Eric's eyes, his legend is only legend because the media tells us it is. Keep on making that argument Eric!

Best role player of all time - period.

And Harley - come on dude - we agree on pretty much everything Cards and - b-ball related - don't let one thread in the politics region cloud your judgement! Hell - you asked if I was your twin brother back in the day!

 

[Russ Smith]

My 2 cents, unless you can define precisely what a role player is, it's very hard to say best role player ever.

With Horry, yeah he came up huge repeatedly in this series, but a lot of that has to do with Detroit's style of defense which is based on suffocating interior shot blocking and forcing you to hit jumpers. Horry shot 37% on 3's this year, 44 in the playoffs, 48 against Detroit(nearly the same against Phoenix) and it's because when teams decide how to defend SA, Horry is typically the 4th or 5th concern behind Duncan, Ginobili, Parker(driving) and sometimes Bowen(also a good 3 point shooter).

Horry is a quality player but he's won 6 titles because he's played with 3 of the best bigmen in the last 15 years, Hakeem in his prime, Shaq in his prime, and Duncan in his prime. Rambis won multiple titles too and was the consummate role player, but same thing, you play with Kareem and Magic, you're going to win titles.

Now as to why Larry Brown says don't leave horry open, partly because he's been killing that shot all postseason for sure, but also because it's blatantly obvious that ALL series, Detroit has cheated off Horry and been burned. I can't believe I'm the only guy that keeps saying why are they giving Horry that shot when he can make that shot, make him drive instead?

He's good but I'm somewhat in the middle of Cheese and Elindholm here, he's simply played so many playoff games he's had a lot more opportunities to make huge plays, but I also think it's hard to deny that he has made a lot of big plays, many guys who have that chance don't.

I'm firmly in the non believer in clutch play, but that's in part due to how I define it, which is that a clutch player is someone who ELEVATES his play in clutch situations. I just don't buy it, stats don't bear it out, and if I DID have a player that played better in such situations my first thought would be, why the hell don't you play at that level the whole game so we don't need so many clutch shots at the end of games?

Interesting debate though. Horry has always fascinated me, I always remember when Chris Jackson was at LSU dropping 50 on teams left and right, Horry on more than one occasion completely shut him down when the played Alabama. It was really something to see a guy that size shut down a small guard, when he was young Horry was a special defender.

 

[elindholm]

I'm just curious whether anyone watched Horry on the defensive end. Besides drawing the charge, he was repeatedly burned for easy scores and also gave up a ton of second shots.

He had a good game, thanks to the scoring, but certainly not a great one. However, I've already conceded the point.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm just curious whether anyone watched Horry on the defensive end. Besides drawing the charge, he was repeatedly burned for easy scores and also gave up a ton of second shots.

yeah he seemed to kill them while playing the majority ofthe 4th quater while the team gave up 14 whopping points. Man - he killed them!

Bottom line - a role plaing 34 year old SF nailing a huge three, getting a big Offesnive rebound which led to extending the lead to 6, then picking up an offensive foul while hitting his free throws and being the third leading scorer in Game 7 IS a huge game.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

yeah he seemed to kill them while playing the majority of the 4th quarter while the team gave up 14 whopping points. Man - he killed them!

Bottom line - a role plaing 34 year old SF nailing a huge three, getting a big Offensive rebound which led to extending the lead to 6, then picking up an offensive foul while hitting his free throws and being the third leading scorer in Game 7 IS a huge game.

You totally overlooked the steal he had. Horry was right there helping another team to a title.

 

[Brian]

To me, bottom line,

If I had to pick one player who I wanted to shoot the three because we:

A) Had to have it.

B) To finish it.

or

C) drive in that proverbial "dagger"

Zero doubt in my mind that is Robert Horry. I don't care what he does the rest of the game....at the end, give it to him and he'll deliver. He is an executioner.

He has done it time and time again.



THAT is clutch.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm going to unstick a couple of these threads. I hope nobody minds. If it's a problem please let us know.

Joe Mama

 

[Amare32]

Great series, props to the Pistons on a good series. They gave the spurs alot of trouble and proved to be a worthy champion.

 

[NickelBack]

Great series, props to the Pistons on a good series. They gave the spurs alot of trouble and proved to be a worthy champion.

Great series....after the fourth game. Last three were awesome. Nice to have a Finals go sven games.

 

[justAndy]

...

I preferred Detroit.
I hate Horry from his no-effort stint with the Suns, and Womanu Ginobifloppi irritates me.
Spurs deserve it - they played strong when they had to, they hit the clutch shots late, Detroit didn't.

 

[Cheesebeef]

BTW - did anyone else realizes that Bill Walton signed off with a Grateful Dead quote:

Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile! - He's Gone.

That's why I love Bill Walton - not only do the most ridiculous things come out of his mouth, but he's able to wrap up the entire year with a quote that only 10% of the listening audience will probably get.

Keep on truckin' Billy!