New mock from the War Room

[Stout]

5th overall may indeed be too high for Ngata, but I think that without question he's one of the top 8 or 9 prospects in this draft. I like him better than Greenway, Jimmy Williams, Tye Hill, any of the wideouts, Broderick Bunkley, Malroney, and DeAngelo Williams. He's the third-best defensive player behind Hawk and Huff, for my money.

Agreed, but I'd put DeAngelo ahead of him.

 

[Savage58]

5th overall may indeed be too high for Ngata, but I think that without question he's one of the top 8 or 9 prospects in this draft. I like him better than Greenway, Jimmy Williams, Tye Hill, any of the wideouts, Broderick Bunkley, Malroney, and DeAngelo Williams. He's the third-best defensive player behind Hawk and Huff, for my money.

You forgot to say 4th behind Mario Williams, AJ Hawk, M. Huff in that order.

 

[kerouac9]

You forgot to say 4th behind Mario Williams, AJ Hawk, M. Huff in that order.

I did forget to say Mario Williams, but I have him just about even with Huff, because I think that a DT is more valuable than a FS.

 

[Doc Cardinal]

Young is OK....but I like the pick of Dallas in this mock for us instead of Lewis:

17 (49) Cowboys Donte Whitner* S Ohio St.
Whitner has the size, speed and coverage skills to take pressure off Cowboys' cornerbacks. He also excels in zone coverage and can cover plenty of ground, which would free up fellow safety Roy Williams to play closer to the line.

Pencil in Wilson's name for Williams and you see how an effective FS helps.

 

[Russ Smith]

here's what i say to the Cards picks in this mock . If i had to pick the 2 guys with the biggest bust potential they would be Lewis and Young. It's hard to call a 2nd rounder a bust but we all remember Johnny Rutledge.

What's the problem with Marcedes?

he's not as fast as Davis or as big as Pope but he's a productive TE who can catch the ball. he has flaws, everyone does, tends to drift at times and let teams take him away with double teams, but let's be honest anybody scared an opponent will double team a TE with Boldin and Fitz on the Cards?

Or to elaborate on comments I made when people first started going bananas after Davis ran his 4.38. Vernon Davis' time at the 40 at the combine means one thing, Vernon Davis is better at training to run at the combine than any other TE was. If Davis is really THAT fast, why is he playing TE at Maryland and not WR or RB or some other position where he can get the ball more and make more plays? Davis is an athletic freak who spent weeks in speed training prior to the combine so he could come in blow everyone away, he did. Now he'll get drafted higher, go to camp, and by the time the season starts he'll be the same guy he was last year at Maryland, not the guy who in training got himself to run faster than most of the WR's who will be drafted.

Marcedes Lewis from what I read on a Bruins site didn't go to a speedcamp, he certainly trained for the combine and the 40 but he was advised NOT to attend a speedcamp because of the growing evidence year by year of players who do that and then go to rookie camp and get hurt. It seems speed training is very specific and leads football players very susceptible to muscle pulls.

So one guy, who's already fast for a TE, trains hard for speed, the other guy, not as fast in the first place, doesn't. and the end result is a 4.38 for Davis and mid 4.7 to 4.8 for the other(Lewis' 40 time is hard to pin down his agent says he ran 4.75 but some scouts list him at 4.8).

Davis is faster than Lewis, always has been, always will be. But Lewis runs better routes and has better hands. I think Davis has the higher ceiling and will rightly go first, but Lewis will be a productive NFL TE IMHO and would be a steal in the 2nd round.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

What's the problem with Marcedes?

he's not as fast as Davis or as big as Pope but he's a productive TE who can catch the ball. he has flaws, everyone does, tends to drift at times and let teams take him away with double teams, but let's be honest anybody scared an opponent will double team a TE with Boldin and Fitz on the Cards?

I guess my problem is that every time i saw he play he was a non-factor. Amittedly, i only saw him play about 4-5 times but i tend to think that if you let yourself get taken out of the game at the college level that it doesn't bode well at the pro level.

 

[BigDavis75]

Or to elaborate on comments I made when people first started going bananas after Davis ran his 4.38. Vernon Davis' time at the 40 at the combine means one thing, Vernon Davis is better at training to run at the combine than any other TE was. If Davis is really THAT fast, why is he playing TE at Maryland and not WR or RB or some other position where he can get the ball more and make more plays? Davis is an athletic freak who spent weeks in speed training prior to the combine so he could come in blow everyone away, he did. Now he'll get drafted higher, go to camp, and by the time the season starts he'll be the same guy he was last year at Maryland, not the guy who in training got himself to run faster than most of the WR's who will be drafted.

Marcedes Lewis from what I read on a Bruins site didn't go to a speedcamp, he certainly trained for the combine and the 40 but he was advised NOT to attend a speedcamp because of the growing evidence year by year of players who do that and then go to rookie camp and get hurt. It seems speed training is very specific and leads football players very susceptible to muscle pulls.

So one guy, who's already fast for a TE, trains hard for speed, the other guy, not as fast in the first place, doesn't. and the end result is a 4.38 for Davis and mid 4.7 to 4.8 for the other(Lewis' 40 time is hard to pin down his agent says he ran 4.75 but some scouts list him at 4.8).

Davis is faster than Lewis, always has been, always will be. But Lewis runs better routes and has better hands. I think Davis has the higher ceiling and will rightly go first, but Lewis will be a productive NFL TE IMHO and would be a steal in the 2nd round.

Davis is a very good blocker so it makes sense to put him closer to center to be more effective on runs plus his size is a serious factor in the seam.

I don't think it's that people don't like Lewis, I think it is that people don't want to see two offensive skill players in the first 2 Cards picks.

 

[Zeno]

Davis is a very good blocker so it makes sense to put him closer to center to be more effective on runs plus his size is a serious factor in the seam.

Is Davis really that good of a blocker? Everything I've read say that is the weakest part of his game and needs a lot of work.

 

[Russ Smith]

I guess my problem is that every time i saw he play he was a non-factor. Amittedly, i only saw him play about 4-5 times but i tend to think that if you let yourself get taken out of the game at the college level that it doesn't bode well at the pro level.

Yeah in the big games this year, USC and the bowl game, he was doubled and taken away. I guess my point is how many NFL teams are going to double a TE?

He has flaws, I think he at times tended to be a bit too willing to let himself get taken away. But if you watched the bowl game where UCLA threw all those picks, at least 2 of those were the QB trying to force the ball into Marcedes in double or triple coverage, they didn't do a very good job of using him as a decoy when teams keyed on him like that, so if you took him away, you shut them down.

I admit I'm biased he's a Bruin and I think he'll be a solid pro. Certainly not saying he should go ahead of Davis, just saying Davis' 40 time is silly, he simply trained to run a fast 40, in reality when he lines up at TE this year for whoever picks him, he's not going to be faster than all but maybe 5 Wr's from this years draft, he'll go back to the speed he was before his speed training, because that's what always happens to guys who do speed training. Unless they're sprinters, it's temporary, as soon as they go back to football training, they go back to their normal speed. Which for Davis was fast enough to begin with.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

I guess my problem is that every time i saw he play he was a non-factor. Amittedly, i only saw him play about 4-5 times but i tend to think that if you let yourself get taken out of the game at the college level that it doesn't bode well at the pro level.

I disagree. Lewis tore ASU to shreds and was one of the only Bruins that showed up in the 'Cats game. Also had a money game against WSU.

I don't know how many Bruin games the rest of the nation got....but the one I know they did get, the USC game, he failed to show up.

I'd LOVE it if this guy fell to us in the 2nd round. I've pretty much convinced myself he won't......so I like Trueblood there......but if he does fall, F Trueblood.

 

[Chopper0080]

I have said it before that I will not be thrilled if the Cards pick Young because I really don't have that high of an opinion of his game and how it translates to the pro level. I hope he suceeds in the pros and will gladly eat crow if he does, but I don't see it. On the subject of Marcedes, he isn't a bad pick just a not a good one with how this mock goes down. I don't see him as an impact player and I believe that we have more pressing needs. Klopenstein (sp) is as good of value in the third as Marcedes in the second. If we were to trade down and pick up another second Marcedes makes sense or if we go OL in round 1 but I can't see it anywhere else.

I have said it many times round 1 should read either Huff, Ngata, Hawk, Cutler, V Davis or trade down. Not saying that it will happen but there just isn't much value with any of the other players that high. Justice is a huge risk at 10 but great value at 15 which is what makes the draft so tough. The same could be said for 5 spots can translate a ton for a players value, especially at the top half of round 1. If I could move into the late teens, grab Mangold/Bunkley and another second, that would be huge. We could use 1 2nd for a FS/OL and the other for an OL/FS/LB.

Some would say that my belief to take 3 OL in the first 5 rounds is overkill but I am not looking for starters, I believe that we could stock our OL depth with solid players. This is the year to do it with all the value at the position. Turn our biggest weakness into a strength with a influx of young talent and next year we won't be behind the OL eight ball.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Alright, you guys who saw him more convinced me. If we take him in round 2,i can accept it.

 

[kerouac9]

I have said it many times round 1 should read either Huff, Ngata, Hawk, Cutler, V Davis or trade down.

Have you seen anything from Jay Cutler that makes you think he should be a top 10 pick while Young shouldn't? Or are you just basing this on what Mel Kiper et al say?

 

[WisconsinCard]

Have you seen anything from Jay Cutler that makes you think he should be a top 10 pick while Young shouldn't? Or are you just basing this on what Mel Kiper et al say?

I like the VY pick. I think if we were ever in the position to take a risk>reward pick, its this year. I don't think you could pick a better QB for him to learn under then KW.

 

[BACH]

What's the problem with Marcedes?

he's not as fast as Davis or as big as Pope but he's a productive TE who can catch the ball. he has flaws, everyone does, tends to drift at times and let teams take him away with double teams, but let's be honest anybody scared an opponent will double team a TE with Boldin and Fitz on the Cards?

Or to elaborate on comments I made when people first started going bananas after Davis ran his 4.38. Vernon Davis' time at the 40 at the combine means one thing, Vernon Davis is better at training to run at the combine than any other TE was. If Davis is really THAT fast, why is he playing TE at Maryland and not WR or RB or some other position where he can get the ball more and make more plays? Davis is an athletic freak who spent weeks in speed training prior to the combine so he could come in blow everyone away, he did. Now he'll get drafted higher, go to camp, and by the time the season starts he'll be the same guy he was last year at Maryland, not the guy who in training got himself to run faster than most of the WR's who will be drafted.

Marcedes Lewis from what I read on a Bruins site didn't go to a speedcamp, he certainly trained for the combine and the 40 but he was advised NOT to attend a speedcamp because of the growing evidence year by year of players who do that and then go to rookie camp and get hurt. It seems speed training is very specific and leads football players very susceptible to muscle pulls.

So one guy, who's already fast for a TE, trains hard for speed, the other guy, not as fast in the first place, doesn't. and the end result is a 4.38 for Davis and mid 4.7 to 4.8 for the other(Lewis' 40 time is hard to pin down his agent says he ran 4.75 but some scouts list him at 4.8).

Davis is faster than Lewis, always has been, always will be. But Lewis runs better routes and has better hands. I think Davis has the higher ceiling and will rightly go first, but Lewis will be a productive NFL TE IMHO and would be a steal in the 2nd round.

I totally agree with you, Russ. BUT at the same time I don't think you can ignore how important the 40-times really are to a player's draft status. Davis probably jumped 5-10 spots with his impressive 40 time. Meanwhile.. Our starting TE had a dissappointing 40 time and went from a projected 3rd round pick to being undrafted.

 

[Chopper0080]

K9-
From what I have seen of Cutler (Tennesse game, Senior Bowl, Combine) he is head and shoulders ahead of Vince Young as a quarterback. I have posted many times that Cutler has all the tools to be a great QB, I just haven't seen it all come out. He has good mobility, awesome arm strength and he is a smart kid to name some of his strengths. He is a safe prospect to develop. Is Cutler a reach at 10? Probably, but the last QB to go where he deserved was Rodgers and he dropped to that spot. Vince Young isn't a Qb yet and I can't see him becoming one in less than 2 years.

Cutler is a legit pick at 10 even though he would need to sit a year.

 

[Duckjake]

I have posted many times that Cutler has all the tools to be a great QB, I just haven't seen it all come out. He has good mobility, awesome arm strength and he is a smart kid to name some of his strengths.

Given those attributes what makes him different from Josh McCown?

 

[Chopper0080]

Cutler seems to have a good grasp of the game while McCown never seemed to. Cutler makes mistakes but it is because he is trying to force something while McCown was confused. Cutler is also a leader, which McCown never was. Cutler's attitude is what gets him compared to Brett Favre. CHe is no quit all the time unlike McCown who transferred to a lower level of college ball.

I guess my answer in short is that Cutler seems to be able to learn and adjust to the pro game in a way that McCown never could.

 

[Zeno]

K9-
From what I have seen of Cutler (Tennesse game, Senior Bowl, Combine) he is head and shoulders ahead of Vince Young as a quarterback.

I've watched Cutler 1 time, during the Senior Bowl, he was terrible. I've read enough that convinces me that he is better than that but I still believe Young has a ton more potential that Cutler.

So what Young has to sit for a season or 2? Warner is signed for the next 3 so thats not a big deal.

 

[kerouac9]

Chopper, the only people who seem to think that Cutler doesn't have to wait a year or two as well are on this board. Todd McShay from ESPN.com just compared the two from tons of tape, and said that neither of them are NFL ready, but Young has TONS more upside.

Cutler's throwing sequence is a total mess. Who throws fadeaway passes in the NFL?

 

[Stout]

Chopper, the only people who seem to think that Cutler doesn't have to wait a year or two as well are on this board. Todd McShay from ESPN.com just compared the two from tons of tape, and said that neither of them are NFL ready, but Young has TONS more upside.

Cutler's throwing sequence is a total mess. Who throws fadeaway passes in the NFL?

Of course Cutler's at least a year away from starting. I haven't read anyone say he isn't, but if they did, they're deluding themselves.

 

[Chopper0080]

"Cutler is a legit pick at 10 even though he would need to sit a year."

that was me...I said that. Where in the world did you get that I believed Cutler could start from day one? As far as Vince Young's upside, it is as high as his bust factor. If you want to disect the two as far as translating to the pro level here is your first step. Who is more effective from under center? Cutler hands down because Young has never consistently done this at the college level. It is one of the most basic things and Vince Young will have to learn it. Second question is, which QB is best prepared to learn a NFL offense. Answer would be Cutler because he ran a more pro-style offense in college whereas Young had a simple offense simplified. Are either of these guys Leinart? No, neither are ready to play from day one but at least Cutler only has one year to go before he makes an impact.

 

[kerouac9]

"Cutler is a legit pick at 10 even though he would need to sit a year."

that was me...I said that. Where in the world did you get that I believed Cutler could start from day one? As far as Vince Young's upside, it is as high as his bust factor. If you want to disect the two as far as translating to the pro level here is your first step. Who is more effective from under center? Cutler hands down because Young has never consistently done this at the college level. It is one of the most basic things and Vince Young will have to learn it. Second question is, which QB is best prepared to learn a NFL offense. Answer would be Cutler because he ran a more pro-style offense in college whereas Young had a simple offense simplified. Are either of these guys Leinart? No, neither are ready to play from day one but at least Cutler only has one year to go before he makes an impact.

Um... how many Vandy games did you watch again? Cutler's footwork is a mess and from what I saw from the Alabama game, Cutler took a ton of snaps from the shotgun. The only times I saw him drop back was on play-action.

And since when does Vanderbilt run a "pro-style" offense? Give me a break. Their head coach has only coached at Furman University. At least know what you're talking about. Their offensive coordinator only coached at NC State before joining the Commodores. Where does the "pro-style offense" fit in here? Oh, it doesn't.

The fact of the matter is that both these guys are going to have to sit for two years before they're able to start, but Young has a higher ceiling. Why is the bust potential lower for Cutler? Because he's a dropback passer (allegedly)? Wasn't Akili Smith? Or Cade McNown? Or Ryan Leaf? If he's merely an average quarterback (like Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer) eventually, does that justify burning a Top 10 pick on him? How so?

 

[Assface]

If he's merely an average quarterback (like Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer) eventually, does that justify burning a Top 10 pick on him? How so?

Since both of those guys have won a Superbowl, I'd say yes. BTW, Brad Johnson is #3 alltime for completion percentage.

 

[Chopper0080]

Again I don't think that you are reading what I am posting.
"Cutler because he ran a MORE pro-style offense in college whereas Young had a simple offense simplified."

I didn't day that Cutler ran a prototypical pro offense but he did more so than YOung who took 85% snaps from center I believe. No players in the draft are locks, far from it when you are talking QB's, but I have a hard time buying the arguement that Young has less "bust potential" than Cutler. If you want to talk option QB's which is where I would rank Vince Young (though Texas runs a different type of option offense), where is the success history there? If you want to hedge to QB's running the spread offense in college, I would state that the NFL success of Tim Coach, Alex Smith, David Carr, Philip Rivers and Rex Grossman speaks for itself. Yes some of these players have had injuries or haven't cracked the starting lineup but that is true with any player. So, in short, I would say that Cutler would have less bust potential than Young because he was a drop back passer in college. For every Leaf there is Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, and Ben Roethlisberger. Look at the starters at QB in the NFL today and you will see that the majority are drop back passers.