New Owner - Mat Ishbia

[Covert Rain]

How is that irrelevant? KD was literally worse last year in the playoffs than Bridges was this year. They won zero games and his shooting was atrocious.

It's irrelevant because my point was the results of games won in the playoffs or the fact that it's the first time the Suns have had the best scoring duo in the playoffs until elimination (something they have been looking for). For starters Bridges is playing on a team where there were no other options. It's a really bad team. The only thing I bought up about PREVIOUS seasons is that Bridges has faded every playoffs which I was piggy backing off of @cheesebeef's post (agreeing with that).

 

[Phrazbit]

It's irrelevant because my point was the results of games won in the playoffs or the fact that it's the first time the Suns have had the best scoring duo in the playoffs until elimination (something they have been looking for). For starters Bridges is playing on a team where there were no other options. It's a really bad team. KD/Booker were the best duo in the playoffs. Something they never had. The only thing I bought up about PREVIOUS seasons is that Bridges has faded every playoffs which I was piggy backing off of @cheesebeef's post.

I’d rather have a good team than a good duo.

This was our worst team of these last 3 seasons.

 

[Covert Rain]

I’d rather have a good team than a good duo.

This was our worst team of these last 3 seasons.

So more of the same since 1968. No thanks. Have had enough of good teams being the goal. I want them to take risks because this team has mostly been risk averse for it's entire existence and that has paid off so well.

 

[Hoop Head]

So more of the same since 1968. No thanks. Have had enough of good teams being the goal. I want them to take risks because this team has mostly been risk averse for it's entire existence and that has paid off so well.

A risk that didn't pay off and isn't likely to. That's like going all in on a roulette table on 35 Black instead of betting a reasonable amount on Black as well as 25-36. You're more likely to make your money back on the latter bet.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

IMO, the iron was ice old at the trade dead line and we the deal we cut was like it was white hot.

I don't see any scenario where Durant's market, this summer, is remotely what we paid for it at the trade deadline.

If Durant's market value, right now, exceeds that which it did in February, then we should take up those offers immediately.

We will never be able to settle this because he’s not on the market. But I think you’re dead wrong. There were teams rumored to want him preseason when we were pursuing him. Those teams came up short this year. They’ll be looking to make significant changes to get over the top. Durant would’ve been the big prize with even hungrier teams.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If someone offered us bad contracts in their final year and an unprotected first for KD, I'd jump at the deal. He is up-side down in value even if you don't worry about his age and health and it's only going to get worse so I'd recoup whatever I could right now. Yes he's still very good but we never had the banked assets or roster strength to make that trade and I don't believe we can change that during the tiny window KD gives us.

Wow I think this is flat out crazy. You could kiss Booker goodbye with that deal.

 

[Phrazbit]

So more of the same since 1968. No thanks. Have had enough of good teams being the goal. I want them to take risks because this team has mostly been risk averse for it's entire existence and that has paid off so well.

I find this logic to be extremely flawed.

For one, the Suns have made “swing for the fences” trades before. Secondly, they’ve almost never shown patience. We’ve repeatedly shortened the window of contention in desperate bids go put a team over the top.

And lastly… potentially ruinous trades are virtually always ruinous.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't care what Booker wants. What Devin wanted mattered greatly to me prior to this last trade but now, it's irrelevant IMO. Thanks to the Durant trade, we're either going to waste the prime of Devin's career or we're going to trade him.

Wow. I am so glad I don’t have that perspective. I would be in the lowest suns place of my life. Maybe that’s where you reside at present. Bummer.

 

[Phrazbit]

We will never be able to settle this because he’s not on the market. But I think you’re dead wrong. There were teams rumored to want him preseason when we were pursuing him. Those teams came up short this year. They’ll be looking to make significant changes to get over the top. Durant would’ve been the big prize with even hungrier teams.

No trades happened because no one was willing to meet that silly price… also, no one was going to trade for him without knowing he’d want to be there.

Their options were very limited and I don’t see any chance that another year of injury, age and failure results in his value increasing.

And regardless, I don’t care how in demand a guy is, at some point the cost is prohibitive no matter what, we went beyond that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Taking both picks and players into consideration, our team probably rated an 8 and would likely have needed to be a 9 to be a real title contender. But the trade left us with assets valued at roughly 5 and that number is likely going to decline rapidly.

Disagree with this wholeheartedly. If anything we were a “waning 8” as those vaunted picks would’ve all been in the 20s with the 50 and fade ball club. It would’ve been mired in limbo. Not good enough to win it all, or threaten, and never bad enough to get better unless it was via pure luck of a late pick.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well, I'm an optimist so I'm going to fantasize that the same fool(s) that made this last trade is going to quickly recognize the consequences of that rash decision and make wise choices afterward. But yeah, if we fall flat on our face this next season and start talking about how wonderful the following season will be when everyone gets healthy again, we're screwed for a long time. We either get great trade value for Devin or we're soon to be a bottom dweller for years to come.

Here’s the thing, if we crash due to injuries and lack of depth we’ll have a better draft pick (remember we gave up every other pick and the pick swap isn’t next year if I recall correctly) than we would’ve had with 50af (my new abbreviation for “50 and fade”) squad.

 

[Covert Rain]

A risk that didn't pay off and isn't likely to. That's like going all in on a roulette table on 35 Black instead of betting a reasonable amount on Black as well as 25-36. You're more likely to make your money back on the latter bet.

Again, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome. It hasn't worked since 1968. The team has to take a different approach. Sure there are no guarantees with any of it. Continuing to be the kind of risk averse this franchise has been is like NEVER putting a chip on the table.

 

[Covert Rain]

I find this logic to be extremely flawed.

For one, the Suns have made “swing for the fences” trades before. Secondly, they’ve almost never shown patience. We’ve repeatedly shortened the window of contention in desperate bids go put a team over the top.

And lastly… potentially ruinous trades are virtually always ruinous.

How so? The closest thing to a swing for the fences trade we have made is Barkley. That's because there was such a huge risk with the trouble he liked to get into off the court. That's also the closest we have gotten to a title until we pulled off the trade for CP3 which was also considered a big risk. It's no coincidence that each time the Suns have gotten close it's after a move that was considered a risk or unconventional wisdom.

Having said that? Since 1968 you can count on one hand how many "swing for the fences" chances this team has taken. You missed a word I used above which was "mostly" risk averse. There is a reason we one of the most winning franchises in all of sports without a title.

 

[Hoop Head]

Disagree with this wholeheartedly. If anything we were a “waning 8” as those vaunted picks would’ve all been in the 20s with the 50 and fade ball club. It would’ve been mired in limbo. Not good enough to win it all, or threaten, and never bad enough to get better unless it was via pure luck of a late pick.

Did you think this team would make the finals when CP3 was acquired? I don't believe so. This team could have competed, they were closer before the trade than after.

Say what you will about acquiring a secondary star is harder than building a supporting cast but that's your belief, the new CBA proves it will be harder to build around high priced players like Booker and KD than it would have been to acquire a star with the pieces we had available. All-Stars are dealt regularly. Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert, Demontis Sabonis, Kyrie, etc. Maybe they aren't on KD's level, or where KD was a few years ago but KD isnt who he was a few years ago.

Durant can't be counted on for more than half a season but his salary is around 1/3 of the salary cap and we're stuck paying him until he's 38. Look how Paul fell off a cliff suddenly at his age, that should have been a cautionary tale to acquiring a star almost a decade older than Booker.

 

[Hoop Head]

Again, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome. It hasn't worked since 1968. The team has to take a different approach. Sure there are no guarantees with any of it. Continuing to be the kind of risk averse this franchise has been is like NEVER putting a chip on the table.

Again, that isn't the definition of insanity yet you keep repeating it, which is ironic. It's a cliche.

Just because you don't feel the team tried hard enough or made a ridiculous gamble means nothing. Teams win without gambling, look at Denver and Miami. We were on the same trajectory as Denver building a core that's roughly the same age and improving on it by acquiring role players to surround those core pieces. Then we decided to say "screw it, lets get a guy closer to retirement than Booker and Ayton's age" and struck out. Our season ended the same way, with an embarrassing loss on our home floor. But hey, our duo scored Denver's duo by a whole 3 points a game. We should take pride in that. Maybe petition the league office to only count the points of the 2 highest scorers on each team.

 

[Covert Rain]

Again, that isn't the definition of insanity yet you keep repeating it, which is ironic. It's a cliche.

Just because you don't feel the team tried hard enough or made a ridiculous gamble means nothing. Teams win without gambling, look at Denver and Miami. We were on the same trajectory as Denver building a core that's roughly the same age and improving on it by acquiring role players to surround those core pieces. Then we decided to say "screw it, lets get a guy closer to retirement than Booker and Ayton's age" and struck out. Our season ended the same way, with an embarrassing loss on our home floor. But hey, our duo scored Denver's duo by a whole 3 points a game. We should take pride in that. Maybe petition the league office to only count the points of the 2 highest scorers on each team.

It's a saying. Who actually thinks that is the literal definition of insanity? That's irony? Also, since you are being so literal, cliches by definition can be very predictable or unoriginal but still true. Just because you don't like big risks and think doing more of the same is the way to go, that means something how? What is our track record doing just that?

The jury is still out on the KD move. We will know soon. From day one most of us recognized this as a huge risk. Many of us said it's a risk that may never pay off. Something you keep ignoring.

After we are done petitioning the league as you suggested, maybe we should petition the league to give us an honorary title too.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's a saying. Who actually thinks that is the literal definition of insanity? That's irony? What?!?!!? Also, since you are being so literal, cliches by definition can be very predictable or unoriginal but still true.

I said it was a cliche because you keep repeating it as if its fact when it's not. Not being overly literal, tired of seeing you pass off all the Suns have done for 50+ as the same thing over and over because that's ridiculous.

Just because you don't like big risks and think doing more of the same is the way to go, that means something how? What is our track record doing just that?

Who said I don't like big risks? I didn't like THIS risk because it was shortsighted. Almost this entire board was in agreement last off-season that we shouldn't pay that much for KD and then once it happened half the board jumped for joy despite the fact they were against overpaying even days before. There's no doubt about it either, the Suns paid a huge price for KD and much more than anyone thought they would. Sometimes staying the course can pay off, as Denver is proving right now. No one is even saying we shouldnt have made any move either, just not the one we did.

The jury is still out on the KD move. We will know soon. From day one most of us recognized this as such.

The jury is out to a certain degree but its not looking good. Evidence so far shows we're still in need of a big move or two to surround Booker and KD with a core than compete with the best teams in the league.

From day one most of us recognized this as such. Many of us said it's a risk that may never pay off. Something you keep ignoring.

From day 1 I recall a lot of posters talking about a championship and how KD made us a contender right away but that talk was silenced quickly when he couldn't play more than 3 games before suffering his first injury here. Then the blame started getting pointed in every direction other than KD's when he didn't look right and was inefficient in the postseason. I haven't ignored anything.

 

[Phrazbit]

How so? The closest thing to a swing for the fences trade we have made is Barkley. That's because there was such a huge risk with the trouble he liked to get into off the court. That's also the closest we have gotten to a title until we pulled off the trade for CP3 which was also considered a big risk. It's no coincidence that each time the Suns have gotten close it's after a move that was considered a risk or unconventional wisdom.

Having said that? Since 1968 you can count on one hand how many "swing for the fences" chances this team has taken. You missed a word I used above which was "mostly" risk averse. There is a reason we one of the most winning franchises in all of sports without a title.

Barkley was a swing for the fences, Shaq was a terrible trade that shortened our window, as was Hot Rod.

There are other examples of the Suns doing something that no one had tried before, like trade of Penny and Marbury to the Knicks, people thought it was crazy at the time.

However, you keep talking about "the definition of insanity"... well, these "go all in and trade your draft future and other parts for one guy" trades have been done before... and they've pretty much always been a complete disaster for the team acquiring the "star". It was the definition of insanity for us think it play out differently here.

 

[Covert Rain]

I said it was a cliche because you keep repeating it as if its fact when it's not. Not being overly literal, tired of seeing you pass off all the Suns have done for 50+ as the same thing over and over because that's ridiculous.



Who said I don't like big risks? I didn't like THIS risk because it was shortsighted. Almost this entire board was in agreement last off-season that we shouldn't pay that much for KD and then once it happened half the board jumped for joy despite the fact they were against overpaying even days before. There's no doubt about it either, the Suns paid a huge price for KD and much more than anyone thought they would. Sometimes staying the course can pay off, as Denver is proving right now. No one is even saying we shouldnt have made any move either, just not the one we did.


The jury is out to a certain degree but its not looking good. Evidence so far shows we're still in need of a big move or two to surround Booker and KD with a core than compete with the best teams in the league.




From day 1 I recall a lot of posters talking about a championship and how KD made us a contender right away but that talk was silenced quickly when he couldn't play more than 3 games before suffering his first injury here. Then the blame started getting pointed in every direction other than KD's when he didn't look right and was inefficient in the postseason. I haven't ignored anything.

Huh? You are still making no sense. I can name a number of examples were repeating the same behavior has netted the same results. What are you talking about? Trying to slowly build through the draft is NOT new to the Suns. Trying to field entertaining teams for the Suns is not new. Playing it safe to trade for "good guys" in this organization is not new. Tweaking the roster time and time again is not new. None of that is new. These are all things the Suns have done before and reapeatedly since 1968. My point is we have only swung for the fences a handful of times in our entire history.

First you take a saying as LITERAL. Then you think I am LITTERALLY saying they did only approach A every single time. You might be the only person on here who actually thinks that is what is LITTERALLY BEING SAID.

Hoop Head, much of the rest of what you said above is stuff I agree with and have said repeatedly.....literally.

Barkley was a swing for the fences, Shaq was a terrible trade that shortened our window, as was Hot Rod.

There are other examples of the Suns doing something that no one had tried before, like trade of Penny and Marbury to the Knicks, people thought it was crazy at the time.

However, you keep talking about "the definition of insanity"... well, these "go all in and trade your draft future and other parts for one guy" trades have been done before... and they've pretty much always been a complete disaster for the team acquiring the "star". It was the definition of insanity for us think it play out differently here.

When have we gotten closer than after the Barkley and CP3 move?

 

[Phrazbit]

When have we gotten closer than after the Barkley and CP3 move?

I don't think the CP3 move carried much risk at all. And as for the Barkley comparison... if we were getting Durant when he was 29 and durable, like Barkley was, things would be different.

When I say that it was insanity to think the KD trade would work for us when similar trades have almost all been disastrous, I am talking about these "4 firsts and other good players for a star" trades.

Trades structured like that have virtually all been totally ruinous for the team getting the "star", and even worse, the other "stars" in those trades were considerably younger and more durable than KD at the time of those deals.

So we tried something that has been done before around the league several times, virtually always ending in total failure and we did it for the oldest and least durable player ever moved in one of those deals.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't think the CP3 move carried much risk at all. And as for the Barkley comparison... if we were getting Durant when he was 29 and durable, like Barkley was, things would be different.

When I say that it was insanity to think the KD trade would work for us when similar trades have almost all been disastrous, I am talking about these "4 firsts and other good players for a star" trades.

Trades structured like that have virtually all been totally ruinous for the team getting the "star", and even worse, the other "stars" in those trades were considerably younger and more durable than KD at the time of those deals.

So we tried something that has been done before around the league several times, virtually always ending in total failure and we did it for the oldest and least durable player ever moved in one of those deals.

I disagree. Go back and check the CP3 thread. It's full of he is too old, his contract doesn't make sense because of injury. Also, keeping in mind that he didn't help our luxury tax situation. Not to mention many analysts were asking why the Suns would take a risk depending on an older player often injured to compliment Booker. There was definitely risk. In terms of Barkley, many teams wouldn't touch Barkley because of the off the court problems.

The team has only sniffed a title after making a risk type move. We have not gotten there by strictly building through the draft. We have not gotten their hodge podging a team together through constant tweaks. We have not gotten their signing a pleathora of middling type players. Been there done that.

 

[Phrazbit]

I disagree. Go back and check the CP3 thread. It's full of he is too old, his contract doesn't make sense because of injury. Also, keeping in mind that he didn't help our luxury tax situation. Not to mention many analysts were asking why the Suns would take a risk and depend on an often injured old PG. There was definitely risk. In terms of Barkley, again, many teams wouldn't touch Barkley because of the off the court problems.

The team has only sniffed a title after making a risk type move. We have not gotten there by strictly building through the draft. We have not gotten their hodge podging a team together through constant tweaks. We have not gotten their signing a pleathora of middling type players. Been there done that.

We've never shown patience in team building.

And, again, we chose a path that has been done before and has ended in disaster repeatedly.

 

[Covert Rain]

We've never shown patience in team building.

And, again, we chose a path that has been done before and has ended in disaster repeatedly.

Sure we have. It's just when it hasn't turned out we try and supplement through free agency or trades. This team has a massive history of draft misses. The comparison of times that we have swung for the fences verses the former is not even comparable since 1968.

 

[Phrazbit]

Sure we have. It's just when it hasn't turned out we try and supplement through free agency or trades. This team has a massive history of draft misses. The comparison of times that we have swung for the fences verses the former is not even comparable since 1968.

We can agree to disagree on the Suns history of either being risk averse or not because it doesn't really have any effect on my view of the KD trade.

These types of trades are bad trades. They've been tried repeatedly, they don't work and they quite often completely ruin teams.

 

[Covert Rain]

We can agree to disagree on the Suns history of either being risk averse or not because it doesn't really have any effect on my view of the KD trade.

These types of trades are bad trades. They've been tried repeatedly, they don't work and they quite often completely ruin teams.

To me it's the central support of my opinion. If you have only done swing at the fences moves a handful of times and it's the closest you have come to a title? That says you possibly need to swing more not less. Taking a more traditional approach the vast majority of times has not worked. To me it's a no brainer you have to do something else.