New Owner - Mat Ishbia

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

First off, that is NOT the definition of insanity, it's just a cute saying that occasionally is somewhat applicable. But not here and not now. It's not like we've done the same thing all along and it failed, not even close. We've tried a lot of different things along the way, we've even tried stupid and we've tried risky before and still no ring. Okay, so maybe we've never tried anything this stupid and this risky but still, is that any reason to make a horrible move?

How about waiting till the offseason and trading Devin Booker for a couple of up and coming players and 4 unprotected picks. Then, trade Mikal for two rotation players and 4 unprotected picks. Then force feed DA for half a season and when he averages 30 and 10 move him for a couple of young players and 4 unprotected picks. To me, that's far less risky and far less stupid than what we did. And it is almost guaranteed to fail too but at least it's not the same thing we've always done. And it solves the problem for those of you convinced that we were never winning with that group.

Congrats Steve. You’ve jumped the shark on this topic.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Such specious argument to say Crowder and Dario were role players traded for KD when Crowder HAD NEVER PLAYED A GAME THIS SEASON and Dario WASNT in the rotation all season AND WASNT EVEN INCLUDED IN THE TRADE.

Really frustrating trying to have an honest convo about this with people who flat out lie about the deal and who wa invovled.

Yeah I think it’s inflammatory to say “lie,” but it’s certainly not constructing an argument in good faith.

 

[AzStevenCal]

To me it's the central support of my opinion. If you have only done swing at the fences moves a handful of times and it's the closest you have come to a title? That says you possibly need to swing more not less. Taking a more traditional approach the vast majority of times has not worked. To me it's a no brainer you have to do something else.

But that's not a very sound argument. Sure, in the abstract, it might make sense but not to justify a specific decision unless it's truly an either or situation. We had a lot of options available to us, grossly overpaying for an aged player with serious injury risks and an absurd contract wasn't our only choice. We might have come up short with any grand gesture but did we have to choose the one that most seriously handcuffs our future options?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’d rather have a good team than a good duo.

This was our worst team of these last 3 seasons.

Both teams didn’t get outta the second round. At least this years team lost to a good team and not doncic and the doncettes.

 

[Covert Rain]

But that's not a very sound argument. Sure, in the abstract, it might make sense but not to justify a specific decision unless it's truly an either or situation. We had a lot of options available to us, grossly overpaying for an aged player with serious injury risks and an absurd contract wasn't our only choice. We might have come up short with any grand gesture but did we have to choose the one that most seriously handcuffs our future options?

Saying we had other options that would have been tangible like KD is pure speculation as well. KD was a bonified and real options that we KNEW was tangible. We will have every other pick and most of those picks, assuming we are competitive, wouldn't have resulted in a draft pick high enough to change our direction. Even then you likely wouldn't see results until after Booker is gone. Then another window comes and goes. Rinse/repeat.

 

[Ronin]

I started my post before I saw yours. Can you elaborate on what you're putting an end to?

I'm an idiot. Nvm. I thought this thread was getting out of hand. I thought I was stopping the beating of a dead horse....but carry on.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Again, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different outcome. It hasn't worked since 1968. The team has to take a different approach. Sure there are no guarantees with any of it. Continuing to be the kind of risk averse this franchise has been is like NEVER putting a chip on the table.

Eh,I’ll differ with you here. I think now and again we’ve taken swings. The Barkley deal. The nash signing. The Paul deal. Those were swings. The Durant deal is definitely the biggest swing, but it’s in the same neighborhood as those swings. That’s why I’m surprised there are thise so bent by this. Those swings came close.

 

[Covert Rain]

Eh,I’ll differ with you here. I think now and again we’ve taken swings. The Barkley deal. The nash signing. The Paul deal. Those were swings. The Durant deal is definitely the biggest swing, but it’s in the same neighborhood as those swings. That’s why I’m surprised there are thise so bent by this. Those swings came close.

Then we are not differing. I also said those were swings. I said I can count the swings on one hand which outweigh all the other approaches. I also agree that considering those swings are the only times we have sniffed a title? Totally agree.

 

[Phrazbit]

Both teams didn’t get outta the second round. At least this years team lost to a good team and not doncic and the doncettes.

Well, ya can't lose to a team ya don't play. If Kawaii didn't get hurt I think the Clippers bounce us.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Saying we had other options that would have been tangible like KD is pure speculation as well. KD was a bonified and real options that we KNEW was tangible.

We had other options, I'm not speculating at all. But sure, if we just had to have an old guy that misses a lot of games who gets paid almost 50 million a year, yeah, our options were limited.

I just think it's a better argument to justify the trade based on what you think KD brings to the table than to justify it by saying we had to try something different. Something different doesn't have to equal Kevin Durant.

 

[Phrazbit]

Eh,I’ll differ with you here. I think now and again we’ve taken swings. The Barkley deal. The nash signing. The Paul deal. Those were swings. The Durant deal is definitely the biggest swing, but it’s in the same neighborhood as those swings. That’s why I’m surprised there are thise so bent by this. Those swings came close.

Yeah, those swings came close.

This is not like those swings, swings like those have a history of success.

This swing is like something the Knicks do. Something that has been done before and virtually always ends in abject disaster.

 

[Covert Rain]

We had other options, I'm not speculating at all. But sure, if we just had to have an old guy that misses a lot of games who gets paid almost 50 million a year, yeah, our options were limited.

I just think it's a better argument to justify the trade based on what you think KD brings to the table than to justify it by saying we had to try something different. Something different doesn't have to equal Kevin Durant.

What other legit options were on the table to land another star? There were lots of rumors but none of them substantiated. It takes two teams to want to make a deal. None that I am aware of were close or tangible. Also, no. I completely disagree. Trying something different is foundational to expecting another outcome. If not Durant than another equally splashy aquisition was required IMO.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm an idiot. Nvm. I thought this thread was getting out of hand. I thought I was stopping the beating of a dead horse....but carry on.

I'm sure it's a conversation that all of us are tired of reading about and tired of participating in (regardless of where any of us stand) but let's face it, it's all part of what will almost surely be considered the most consequential decision this franchise has ever made. And we'll either be celebrating the result of that decision or paying off those consequences for many years to come so there's little hope we're going to escape this conversation anytime soon.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Did you think this team would make the finals when CP3 was acquired? I don't believe so. This team could have competed, they were closer before the trade than after.

Say what you will about acquiring a secondary star is harder than building a supporting cast but that's your belief, the new CBA proves it will be harder to build around high priced players like Booker and KD than it would have been to acquire a star with the pieces we had available. All-Stars are dealt regularly. Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert, Demontis Sabonis, Kyrie, etc. Maybe they aren't on KD's level, or where KD was a few years ago but KD isnt who he was a few years ago.

Durant can't be counted on for more than half a season but his salary is around 1/3 of the salary cap and we're stuck paying him until he's 38. Look how Paul fell off a cliff suddenly at his age, that should have been a cautionary tale to acquiring a star almost a decade older than Booker.

Actually if you go back you’ll see I was a supporter of the Paul deal. Sure it exceeded my expectations but that was because I didn’t see how far book would ascend. Now I know that.

And yeah all those stars you listed wouldn’t move the needle as much as a healthy KD. If we can get KD to be healthy as he was to begin last season (remember, we just need that for four series, timing is everything) it’s a difference maker of such magnitude we’ve not seen it before.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah, those swings came close.

This is not like those swings, swings like those have a history of success.

This swing is like something the Knicks do. Something that has been done before and virtually always ends in abject disaster.

Yet we have not come close without those swings.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Again, that isn't the definition of insanity yet you keep repeating it, which is ironic. It's a cliche.

Just because you don't feel the team tried hard enough or made a ridiculous gamble means nothing. Teams win without gambling, look at Denver and Miami. We were on the same trajectory as Denver building a core that's roughly the same age and improving on it by acquiring role players to surround those core pieces. Then we decided to say "screw it, lets get a guy closer to retirement than Booker and Ayton's age" and struck out. Our season ended the same way, with an embarrassing loss on our home floor. But hey, our duo scored Denver's duo by a whole 3 points a game. We should take pride in that. Maybe petition the league office to only count the points of the 2 highest scorers on each team.

No offense but I find this comment absurd. On a player by player basis we were not in the same trajectory.

Jokic is the best player in the league. Book is not on that level.

Murray is head and shoulders better than bridges and pricing it ALL PLAYOFF long.

The rest of their cast, on a player by player basis likely exceeds our team and their role players are all perfect fits, including their three guys off the bench. We did NOT have that.

 

[Covert Rain]

No offense but I find this comment absurd. On a player by player basis we were not in the same trajectory.

Jokic is the best player in the league. Book is not on that level.

Murray is head and shoulders better than bridges and pricing it ALL PLAYOFF long.

The rest of their cast, on a player by player basis likely exceeds our team and their role players are all perfect fits, including their three guys off the bench. We did NOT have that.

Not to mention the Joker is not the same player we played a couple years back. He is in way better shape. They even talked about it on the telecast how Joker knew he wasn't in great shape and took the time the past couple years to improve in that area. To me? It's made all the difference in the world. I don't recall the last time I have seen a guy that lumbering that just keeps going and going.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yet we have not come close without those swings.

Okay, but this isn't like those swings.

This wasn't a swing, it was a flail, a desperate hack with the eyes pinched shut.

The odds that it will give us even a short term reward seem infintesimal right now, while at the same time leaving us with a crippling trade burden for the rest of the decade.

 

[Covert Rain]

Okay, but this isn't like those swings.

This wasn't a swing, it was a flail, a desperate hack with the eyes pinched shut.

The odds that it will give us even a short term reward seem infintesimal right now, while at the same time leaving us with a crippling trade burden for the rest of the decade.

To me a swing is a high risk move. Some are riskier than the others for sure. I wouldn't call having everyone other pick and even most of the ones that will convey won't be high impact picks being crippled. That is a gross exaggeration. Plus, there are still draft day trades and other moves the Suns can make in the future to stockpile assets (i.e. expiring contracts).

 

[Phrazbit]

To me a swing is a high risk move. Some are riskier than the others for sure. I wouldn't call having everyone other pick and even most of the ones that will convey won't be high impact picks being crippled. That is a gross exaggeration. Plus, there are still draft day trades and other moves the Suns can make in the future to stockpile assets (i.e. expiring contracts).

I fully expect that we will be sending the Nets 2-3 lotto picks.

 

[Covert Rain]

I fully expect that we will be sending the Nets 2-3 lotto picks.

I will bet cash money that we are not the worst team in the league with Ishbia at the helm for any of those picks. You would have to assume (barring catastrophic injury to all your stars at once) that he is the type of owner to stay idle. What about him says that?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I will bet cash money that we are not the worst team in the league with Ishbia at the helm for any of those picks.

Great, do we get a ring for that?

 

[Covert Rain]

Great, do we get a ring for that?

My daughter has a ring pop in the pantry, I think.

 

[Phrazbit]

I will bet cash money that we are not the worst team in the league with Ishbia at the helm for any of those picks. You would have to assume (barring catastrophic injury to all your stars at once) that he is the type of owner to stay idle. What about him says that?

You don’t have to be the worst team to be in the lotto.

When the last 3 picks convey Durant will probably be retired and our ability to replace him, or anyone of talent, is going to be very limited in the interim.

And really… Durant misses half the season like clockwork, Booker misses 20-30 games of late… I don’t see us getting high seeds in these upcoming seasons and I can easily see us sweating making the playoffs at all.

I don’t doubt Ishbia’s ambition, but a hands-on owner can be a very bad thing. I hope he learns fast.

 

[Covert Rain]

You don’t have to be the worst team to be in the lotto.

When the last 3 picks convey Durant will probably be retired and our ability to replace him, or anyone of talent, is going to be very limited in the interim.

And really… Durant misses half the season like clockwork, Booker misses 20-30 games of late… I don’t see us getting high seeds in these upcoming seasons and I can easily see us sweating making the playoffs at all.

I don’t doubt Ishbia’s ambition, but a hands-on owner can be a very bad thing. I hope he learns fast.

The way it works now you have to be pretty close to the worst team. Again, I ask, what about Ishbia screams he is going to stay idle? In terms of injuries? That can happen to any team at any time. You can't say well because a theoretical injury could occur better not trade picks. You make those trades based on the perceived value and status of your team. Not in the worst case scenario.